Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

[Oldcommercialpilot]

Uncertainty - WJ has launched an Unfair Labour Practices complaint against ALPA. ALPA will likely do the same in the coming weeks. Then there is the almost-certain filing of Common Employer status, etc. In other words, this is about to get very messy for a very long time and there is no telling how this is going to play out after the courts/arbitrators/CIRB are done. I'm curious what Swoop is even telling their applicants in the interviews. I'm not entirely sure how they can even hire any pilots without knowing if they are legally allowed to circumvent their Union and hire from outside. Picture this... Today you are hired and are pilot #1 on the Swoop list. Months from now a CIRB ruling comes down in ALPAs favour and WJ must amalgamate the pilot lists. So... You go from Captain #1 to pilot #2500 and are now below the lowest FO on the Dash-8 at Encore.

The above is taken from OCP's original post.

I would like to clarify the words outlined in red font. Although someone posted in this forum that I think I'm a lawyer or some such idea, the truth is that I just don't trust what people tell me. Especially from partisan supporters, but more generally I just don't trust people. They lie. You lie. I lie. They misunderstand. You misunderstand. I misunderstand. So I research and try to understand things I don't understand and that I want to understand.

So when I read the above excerpt, I went: "Wait. What?"

Some facts. Within the last year, ALPA went to the CIRB and submitted two applications for certification of two bargaining units, WJ and WJE pilots, outlining who the members of the classes of the proposed bargaining units were. They weren't forced to do so. They chose to do so. They willingly requested that the CIRB approve their (ALPA) proposed divisions of WJ pilots and WJE pilots into two separate bargaining units. The CIRB agreed.

Fact. The CIRB, having agreed to the two separate bargaining units, at ALPA's request, is not now, or soon (possibly ever) going to agree to an amalgamation of the two pilot groups into one bargaining unit (absent a significant change in the business composition, or the agreement of WJ/WJE management). Read and understand the CIRB past decisions.

So, the above scenario as posited by OCP can't happen. Perhaps, and only perhaps, WJ and Swoop could be the target of a single employer application, but that is a dubious proposition. Swoop is not purchasing simulator time from WJ. It is going elsewhere in the market. There are no initial 737NG courses occuring at WJ right now (Encore flow or OTS) and won't be until the fall so simulator time should be available. So why is Swoop doing so? Well, I think you know. Swoop is being organized so that its business is safe, or as safe as it can be from a single employer application. Period. In every department. WJ is likely paying big, big money to people who know the law on how to do so.

OCP's post above is fluff. He knows not of what he talks. Not only is he not a lawyer, but he is guilty of not trying to understand the issues. He just wants to believe. Or maybe does understand the issues and is just ltying. I suppose I can't fault him for that. Humans are emotional creatures. OCP and others are slowly realizing the truth of what certification with ALPA (at WJ and WJE) has done to career expectations for junior pilots at WJ, and all of those at WJE. It has changed those expectations. How, I can only speculate. But since I'm not being fiancially affected by any of the above, I'm not spending a whole lot of time trying to figure it out. I'll leave that to those affected.

There is only one path forward that will get those career expectations back on track. Resign your membership from ALPA. Be ready to sign the decertification card when it is offered to you. Regain the collaborative relationship that the WJPA had with the principals at WJ, versus the antagonistic relationship that ALPA now has. History at WJ has shown that there was a way forward so that WJE pilots could have, without penalty, flowed to Swoop and then flowed to WJ with some proper seniority credit for having done so. Mainline FO's who chose to do so, could have flowed to Swoop as Captains and returned to WJ with some credit for having done so.

How can any right thinking person believe what we have now is better?

To quote one of my favourite replies of all time to NCP on our former WJPA forum: “all I hear when you I read your posts is “blah, blah, blah, nothing”.

YOU ARE NOT A LAWYER. You are a commercial pilot with a +2 Post-secondary education at best. I’m not sure why you seem to think you are an expert on all matters pertaining to all things simply because you can read the webpages on the internet ... some kind of psychological complex perhaps?

[schnitzel2k3]

Sooo just came across this and it ain't going to make any 'jetters' happy.

Compensation package for Swoop as follows:

- 12,500 annual bonus after 1st and 2nd year.
- 75 hour guarantee / overtime over 90 (standard).
- 13% target profit share.

and here are the kicks in the teeth.

- Travel on WS network.
- 10% ESPP / 100% Company Matched WJA Stock.

Guess the Swoopers are going to be Westjet owners too....



and I'm stepping out of this conversation....now...

S.

[TheStig]

To quote one of my favourite replies of all time to NCP on our former WJPA forum: “all I hear when you I read your posts is “blah, blah, blah, nothing”.

YOU ARE NOT A LAWYER. You are a commercial pilot with a +2 Post-secondary education at best. I’m not sure why you seem to think you are an expert on all matters pertaining to all things simply because you can read the webpages on the internet ... some kind of psychological complex perhaps?

'Never wrestle pigs. You both get dirty and the pig likes it"
- George Bernard Shaw

I wonder if he ever could have envisioned a world with social media?

[JohnnyHotRocks]

So based on all these financial perks, what would you think a Captain would make yearly?

[Oldcommercialpilot]

Well, after all of the deductions & taxes on the esp, etc a 10 year Captain takes home about $2000 per pay cheque at WestJet and their hourly rate is close to double that of Swoop. The “financial perks” are also double. The saying at WJ is T4 rich and Cash poor.
Not sure what it would work out to annually but I would guess that the monthly paycheques at Swoop would be somewhere around $1100 for a captain and about $700 for an FO.

No, I’m not kidding.

[indieadventurer]

Well, after all of the deductions & taxes on the esp, etc a 10 year Captain takes home about $2000 per pay cheque at WestJet and their hourly rate is close to double that of Swoop. The “financial perks” are also double. The saying at WJ is T4 rich and Cash poor.
Not sure what it would work out to annually but I would guess that the monthly paycheques at Swoop would be somewhere around $1100 for a captain and about $700 for an FO.

No, I’m not kidding.

How did you arrive at those numbers? Using the ESPP calculator and punching in Step 1 pay and the max 10% ESPP contribution for a Capt and FO living in Ontario I got the following bi-weekly take home pay based on the minimum guarantee of 75 hrs/month.

Capt
Without ESPP: $2,538.31
With ESPP: $2,122.04

FO
Without ESPP: $1,490.57
With ESPP: $1,230.45

[DropTanks]

Well, after all of the deductions & taxes on the esp, etc a 10 year Captain takes home about $2000 per pay cheque at WestJet and their hourly rate is close to double that of Swoop. The “financial perks” are also double. The saying at WJ is T4 rich and Cash poor.
Not sure what it would work out to annually but I would guess that the monthly paycheques at Swoop would be somewhere around $1100 for a captain and about $700 for an FO.

No, I’m not kidding.

How did you arrive at those numbers? Using the ESPP calculator and punching in Step 1 pay and the max 10% ESPP contribution for a Capt and FO living in Ontario I got the following bi-weekly take home pay based on the minimum guarantee of 75 hrs/month.

Capt
Without ESPP: $2,538.31
With ESPP: $2,122.04

FO
Without ESPP: $1,490.57
With ESPP: $1,230.45

Ahhhhhh that's cute. But don't forget the list of taxable benefits as long as my arm and the employee paid STD/LTD. should shave a couple hundred off per cheque.

Makin it rain!!!

Look, it's simple. They can't find guys or they don't like the quality of the applications. We need to stand firm and "encourage" management to come back to the table and negotiate like big boys and girls. I have great confidence that a proper deal can be had between ALPA and WJ. They just need to hash it out.

The flying needs to be done in seniority on a bid. I'm not gonna take a left seat from a 8-9 yr WJ F/O just because the pittance is just slightly better than my 3rd year pay. Upgrades out of seniority cannot be allowed to happen here. Hold firm.

[tallyho]

Dont forget to deduct $100-$300 per cheque for LTD/STD for an FO, and about double for a captain. You will clear more driving a school bus than as a Swoop Captain.

If you go to Swoop, what is to stop WJ starting a new airline 2 years later with even less pay and worse conditions than Swoop? I guarantee that if Swoop is successful then that is what will happen. This is why people shouldn't work there, not because of scabs or blacklists or brotherly love. Swoop is not a career, it will either be an abject failure and doors will close within 2 years, or it will be immensely successful and will be replaced by 'Swipe' at 60% of current Swoop salaries after 2 years. Singapore Airline now has four levels to its ULCC. Each one cheaper than the last. This is where WJ wants to go.

I understand the business idea, but WJ pilots are already the cheapest by operating cost in North America. Where does it end?

[indieadventurer]

Well, after all of the deductions & taxes on the esp, etc a 10 year Captain takes home about $2000 per pay cheque at WestJet and their hourly rate is close to double that of Swoop. The “financial perks” are also double. The saying at WJ is T4 rich and Cash poor.
Not sure what it would work out to annually but I would guess that the monthly paycheques at Swoop would be somewhere around $1100 for a captain and about $700 for an FO.

No, I’m not kidding.

How did you arrive at those numbers? Using the ESPP calculator and punching in Step 1 pay and the max 10% ESPP contribution for a Capt and FO living in Ontario I got the following bi-weekly take home pay based on the minimum guarantee of 75 hrs/month.

Capt
Without ESPP: $2,538.31
With ESPP: $2,122.04

FO
Without ESPP: $1,490.57
With ESPP: $1,230.45

Ahhhhhh that's cute. But don't forget the list of taxable benefits as long as my arm and the employee paid STD/LTD. should shave a couple hundred off per cheque.

Makin it rain!!!

Look, it's simple. They can't find guys or they don't like the quality of the applications. We need to stand firm and "encourage" management to come back to the table and negotiate like big boys and girls. I have great confidence that a proper deal can be had between ALPA and WJ. They just need to hash it out.

The flying needs to be done in seniority on a bid. I'm not gonna take a left seat from a 8-9 yr WJ F/O just because the pittance is just slightly better than my 3rd year pay. Upgrades out of seniority cannot be allowed to happen here. Hold firm.

Agreed. Take another $200-300 off those numbers and you're closer to realistic take home pay. My point was that it won't be as low as OCP mentioned. It's beside the point anyways, this experiment with labour unrest and extreme cost cutting will unravel soon enough. It'll be an interesting Q4 results conference call on the 6th to hear what analysts have to ask and say regarding their plans and how things are unfolding with Swoop and Link.

[infiniteregulus]

Dont forget to deduct $100-$300 per cheque for LTD/STD for an FO, and about double for a captain. You will clear more driving a school bus than as a Swoop Captain.

If you go to Swoop, what is to stop WJ starting a new airline 2 years later with even less pay and worse conditions than Swoop? I guarantee that if Swoop is successful then that is what will happen. This is why people shouldn't work there, not because of scabs or blacklists or brotherly love. Swoop is not a career, it will either be an abject failure and doors will close within 2 years, or it will be immensely successful and will be replaced by 'Swipe' at 60% of current Swoop salaries after 2 years. Singapore Airline now has four levels to its ULCC. Each one cheaper than the last. This is where WJ wants to go.

I understand the business idea, but WJ pilots are already the cheapest by operating cost in North America. Where does it end?

I totally agree with this. Take it from those who operate in other parts of the world. It may not be totally visible in Canada but Swoop is just the tip of the iceberg and will set a precedent toward a negative chain reaction in the future (assuming it's successful of course which could be argued).

[Oldcommercialpilot]

Argue the numbers all you want. Justify the pay all you want. The facts speak for themselves: captains that have been at WestJet for 2 decades gross little more than $2000 per cheque. That is a fact.
Swoop is paying less than half of what those captains make. The pay may end up slightly better than half of what a WJ captain makes but that is only because the ESP deductions will be less and the benefits plan is non-existent, therefore, no premiums deduction.
Again, just giving the facts for those who think leaving a perfectly good job to work for this scab airline is a good opportunity.

[groundpilot]

Dont forget to deduct $100-$300 per cheque for LTD/STD for an FO, and about double for a captain. You will clear more driving a school bus than as a Swoop Captain.

If you go to Swoop, what is to stop WJ starting a new airline 2 years later with even less pay and worse conditions than Swoop? I guarantee that if Swoop is successful then that is what will happen. This is why people shouldn't work there, not because of scabs or blacklists or brotherly love. Swoop is not a career, it will either be an abject failure and doors will close within 2 years, or it will be immensely successful and will be replaced by 'Swipe' at 60% of current Swoop salaries after 2 years. Singapore Airline now has four levels to its ULCC. Each one cheaper than the last. This is where WJ wants to go.

I understand the business idea, but WJ pilots are already the cheapest by operating cost in North America. Where does it end?

This!

[3down&loct]

Just curious if anyone knows if the support pers required to run Swoop will take pay-cuts?
I can't imagine that they will have their own maintenance team, so will WJ maintainers take an hourly reduction when they touch a Swoop tail number. Will dispatchers take a pay-cut when they dispatch a Swoop crew? Will the chief pilot of Swoop be paid less than the chief pilot at WJ? Will GGG step up and take a pay reduction?
If the answer is no, then why TF should the aircrew??

[groundpilot]

I posted this in the other thread:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... econd-half

But a key quote I thought was:

“In June, when we have all of the regulatory approvals, we will announce southern flying into the U.S. and Mexico, potentially the Caribbean as well,” Bob Cummings, WestJet’s executive vice president of strategy, said in an interview. “We will aggressively go after the cross-border opportunity, which is quite significant.”


This is 100% WJ flying already. This needs to be stopped in its footsteps!!

[DropTanks]

I posted this in the other thread:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... econd-half

But a key quote I thought was:

“In June, when we have all of the regulatory approvals, we will announce southern flying into the U.S. and Mexico, potentially the Caribbean as well,” Bob Cummings, WestJet’s executive vice president of strategy, said in an interview. “We will aggressively go after the cross-border opportunity, which is quite significant.”


This is 100% WJ flying already. This needs to be stopped in its footsteps!!

There's only one way it stops. By pilots standing firm and NOT applying to accept and participate in sub-standard wages. There's a pilot shortage by the way and I think that WJ is just starting to feel it. We need to make sure the Swoop flying remains at WJ to ensure opportunities for EVERYBODY at WJ and Encore! Stand firm!

[atphat]

I posted this in the other thread:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... econd-half

But a key quote I thought was:

“In June, when we have all of the regulatory approvals, we will announce southern flying into the U.S. and Mexico, potentially the Caribbean as well,” Bob Cummings, WestJet’s executive vice president of strategy, said in an interview. “We will aggressively go after the cross-border opportunity, which is quite significant.”


This is 100% WJ flying already. This needs to be stopped in its footsteps!!

There's only one way it stops. By pilots standing firm and NOT applying to accept and participate in sub-standard wages. There's a pilot shortage by the way and I think that WJ is just starting to feel it. We need to make sure the Swoop flying remains at WJ to ensure opportunities for EVERYBODY at WJ and Encore! Stand firm!

Wrong. Pilots will always take jobs. I don’t blame them.

Either the WJ pilots take a stand or they don’t. Blaming pilots looking for employment is just passing the buck so they don’t have to make the hard choices.

The Swoop issue really has NOTHING to do with OTS applicants at Swoop, because there will always be pilots willing to sit in the seat.

[groundpilot]

While I don’t disagree AT,

Pilots will always do what is best for them. And this can equate to high turn over which equates to high training costs, and ultimately & ideally improved pay.

Where this can go astray is when companies start complaining of pilot shortages and start looking at foreign workers or “cadets”. And of course there is always “training bonds”

[RidersRule]

Think about this for a second.

$100 an hour for left seat on a 737 with close too 200 lives in your hand.

And as we know in aviation $100 an hour in aviation in a 80 hour month is $50 an hour for most people that work 40 hour weeks.

$50 an hour.

My wife's a hairdresser.

She charges $50 an hour.

Perspective.

[tallyho]

The WJ pilots ARE standing firm. It would be nice if they had the support of their peers. ACPA and ALPA have publicly supported WJ pilots stance. If the support of all pilots in Canada was forthcoming it would benefit the WJ pilots position. If the WJ pilots are successful it will benefit everyone in the long run, except maybe people who are bored with the sandbox.

The only way non WJ pilots can support is by refusing to go to Swoop. Its not complicated, and if people choose to pursue their career at Swoop then that is their perogative but its a short term solution. They will not be happy, enjoy the flying, or the schedule or the pay.

We have to live our own life and choose whats best for us, but in my opinion Swoop is a poor choice for anyone.

[Fanblade]

I posted this in the other thread:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... econd-half

But a key quote I thought was:

“In June, when we have all of the regulatory approvals, we will announce southern flying into the U.S. and Mexico, potentially the Caribbean as well,” Bob Cummings, WestJet’s executive vice president of strategy, said in an interview. “We will aggressively go after the cross-border opportunity, which is quite significant.”


This is 100% WJ flying already. This needs to be stopped in its footsteps!!

There's only one way it stops. By pilots standing firm and NOT applying to accept and participate in sub-standard wages. There's a pilot shortage by the way and I think that WJ is just starting to feel it. We need to make sure the Swoop flying remains at WJ to ensure opportunities for EVERYBODY at WJ and Encore! Stand firm!

Google “burning platform” as it pertains to negotiation and change in the work place.

Greg is trying to make you panic. If he is successful there is a far greater chance, as a group, you will agree to something you never rationally would.

Calin is a pro at it. He has a saying something like. Nothing focuses the mind like a hanging in the morning. In this instance it is the threat of the death of your carrer.

Knowledge is power. If you understand what they are trying to do? They have no power.

Mark my words. This is just a dance. Maybe a better analogy is two boxers dancing around in circles.

WJ pilots will be flying those aircraft. The question is for what?