Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

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JohnnyHotRocks
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Re: Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

#151 Post by JohnnyHotRocks » Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:54 pm

So if the flying went to Westjet pilots, would they do it for less money?
Serious question
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Re: Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

#152 Post by FL410AV8R » Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:44 pm

JohnnyHotRocks wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:54 pm
So if the flying went to Westjet pilots, would they do it for less money?
Serious question

NO
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Re: Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

#153 Post by schnitzel2k3 » Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:54 am

And another serious question, why should the WS management bring the flying back to you?

Rouge and their unwilling pilot association made internal concessions to help AC target the LCC market. Not saying it was the right thing - but it seems to have worked out.

I don't see why - if you can create and agree to Encore - and you really want the Swoop flying - you wouldn't be more flexible about modifying your agreement.

I'm extending an olive branch now- and I absolutely do not agree with their benefit package using WS benefits under a 'completely' different company. If they want to be separate - be separate.

S.
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Re: Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

#154 Post by Bede » Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:22 am

schnitzel2k3 wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:54 am
I don't see why - if you can create and agree to Encore - and you really want the Swoop flying - you wouldn't be more flexible about modifying your agreement.
Because we have an agreement that sets pay rates for the B737 aircraft. I don't see the fuel companies, insurance, Boeing, etc cutting there rates. Why should we?
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Re: Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

#155 Post by Fanblade » Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:54 am

schnitzel2k3 wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:54 am

Rouge and their unwilling pilot association made internal concessions to help AC target the LCC market. Not saying it was the right thing - but it seems to have worked out.

I don't see why - if you can create and agree to Encore - and you really want the Swoop flying - you wouldn't be more flexible about modifying your agreement.
Rouge pay and working conditions on the 319 were lowered at AC in an attempt to match 737 pay and working conditions at WJ.

WJ management is now attempting to re establish the cost advantage they lost when Rouge started.

Air Canada wanted pilot costs to be equal to the competition.

Westjet wants Pilot costs to be cheaper than the competition.

There is a philosophical difference in expectations between AC & WJ management. One wants an equal playing field. The other wants a cost advantage.

It’s long past time WJ and AC management understand clearly. Get your cost advantage elsewhere. No longer on the backs of pilots.

If we don’t the philosophical difference between the two managements will drive a continued downward spiral. First WJ wages get lowered with Swoop. Then AC will want it matched.
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Re: Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

#156 Post by groundpilot » Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:57 am

Totally agree with FanBlade,

However,

Hard for AC pilots to stand almighty when SWOOP 2nd years pilots are paid more than AC 2nd years pilots.

$69.62 & $63.12 respectively

So we have Widebody FOs at mainline making less than ULCC FOs
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Re: Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

#157 Post by Transonic » Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:59 am

groundpilot wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:57 am
Totally agree with FanBlade,

However,

Hard for AC pilots to stand almighty when SWOOP 2nd years pilots are paid more than AC 2nd years pilots.

$69.62 & $63.12 respectively

So we have Widebody FOs at mainline making less than ULCC FOs
Yet completely ignoring the Target Benefit Pension, higher per diems, lower OT trigger, 2 for 1 YOS towards Captain pay scale etc.
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Re: Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

#158 Post by groundpilot » Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:24 am

Transonic wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:59 am
groundpilot wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:57 am
Totally agree with FanBlade,

However,

Hard for AC pilots to stand almighty when SWOOP 2nd years pilots are paid more than AC 2nd years pilots.

$69.62 & $63.12 respectively

So we have Widebody FOs at mainline making less than ULCC FOs
Yet completely ignoring the Target Benefit Pension, higher per diems, lower OT trigger, 2 for 1 YOS towards Captain pay scale etc.
All true.

However, I think you're missing the point.

MAINLINE VS ULCC

It shouldn't be close but yet it is

Should we have an Air Canada vs North American Legacy Carriers review?
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Re: Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

#159 Post by eyebrow737 » Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:33 am

groundpilot wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:24 am
Transonic wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:59 am
groundpilot wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:57 am
Totally agree with FanBlade,

However,

Hard for AC pilots to stand almighty when SWOOP 2nd years pilots are paid more than AC 2nd years pilots.

$69.62 & $63.12 respectively

So we have Widebody FOs at mainline making less than ULCC FOs
Yet completely ignoring the Target Benefit Pension, higher per diems, lower OT trigger, 2 for 1 YOS towards Captain pay scale etc.
All true.

However, I think you're missing the point.

MAINLINE VS ULCC

It shouldn't be close but yet it is

Should we have an Air Canada vs North American Legacy Carriers review?
How about Canada vs the Rest of the world Salary review? The sniffling, arguing, backstabbing, status culturing, childish pontificating nature of this thread would explain everything.

Most of you are an airline managements dream.
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Re: Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

#160 Post by tallyho » Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:10 pm

Why should a ULCC pilot flying a 737 be paid less than a Mainline 737 pilot? They shouldnt, same job, same responsibilty.
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Re: Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

#161 Post by telex » Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:12 pm

tallyho wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:10 pm
Why should a ULCC pilot flying a 737 be paid less than a Mainline 737 pilot? They shouldnt, same job, same responsibilty.
You mean like a ZIP pilot?
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Re: Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

#162 Post by FL410AV8R » Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:14 pm

eyebrow737 wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:33 am

How about Canada vs the Rest of the world Salary review? The sniffling, arguing, backstabbing, status culturing, childish pontificating nature of this thread would explain everything.

Most of you are an airline managements dream.
What he said. :prayer:
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Re: Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

#163 Post by Boreas » Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:16 pm

eyebrow737 wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:33 am
How about Canada vs the Rest of the world Salary review?
THIS!

Whats wrong with Canada? Honestly?

A quick look south of the boarder and you can't help but see pilot groups getting better and better deals. I think Spirit airlines is about to sign something like a 43% compensation increase...
And what does Canada get? GGNs and Skys and Swoops?

What are they doing that we're not?
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Re: Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

#164 Post by saltypilot » Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:24 pm

Boreas wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:16 pm
eyebrow737 wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:33 am
How about Canada vs the Rest of the world Salary review?
THIS!

Whats wrong with Canada? Honestly?

A quick look south of the boarder and you can't help but see pilot groups getting better and better deals. I think Spirit airlines is about to sign something like a 43% compensation increase...
And what does Canada get? GGNs and Skys and Swoops?

What are they doing that we're not?
They’re finally getting their collective shit together and uniting. That’s what they are doing that we are not, or should I say have yet to do. Enough is enough. Time’s up. I believe the tide is turning.
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Re: Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

#165 Post by Boreas » Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:39 pm

Ok.

So now that WestJet is unionized. Are they pushing for significantly better wages or are they only focused on combating Swoop?
Does anyone know what their new contract will focus on?
What's a likely time-frame for getting it signed?
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Re: Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

#166 Post by Victory » Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:43 pm

A lot of it comes down to our government. Remember Air Canada's contract was forced down their throat by the government just as an example. And what they pay sets the bar for the whole country really. This country as a whole doesn't really believe anyone should be highly paid for what they do so no one is going to complain when they are so heavy handed. To add to the huge glut of local pilots they also allow a lot of foreign pilots to get permission to work in Canada fairly easily. I don't just mean Sunwing or EVAS, every company I've ever worked for has had non-citizens flying there. Your only option really is to leave.
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Re: Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

#167 Post by FL410AV8R » Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:19 pm

Boreas wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:16 pm
eyebrow737 wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:33 am
How about Canada vs the Rest of the world Salary review?
THIS!

Whats wrong with Canada? Honestly?

A quick look south of the boarder and you can't help but see pilot groups getting better and better deals. I think Spirit airlines is about to sign something like a 43% compensation increase...
And what does Canada get? GGNs and Skys and Swoops?

What are they doing that we're not?
Solidarity.

Spirit pilots gave their negotiators a 100% strike mandate.

Delta and American both negotiated industry uplift clauses into their CBAs.

Southwest is militantly defensive of their flying.

But here in Canada we give omnipotent powers to airline executives and are too polite to call them out when they are screwing over our profession.

Thankfully the tide does seem to be turning and the pilot shortage I heard about in flight school 30+ years ago is actually beginning. It is way past time to stop the downward slide of our profession.
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Re: Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

#168 Post by mbav8r » Sat Feb 03, 2018 3:23 pm

telex wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:12 pm
tallyho wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:10 pm
Why should a ULCC pilot flying a 737 be paid less than a Mainline 737 pilot? They shouldnt, same job, same responsibilty.
You mean like a ZIP pilot?
The important part for those who can’t remember history is in bold, WJ started by paying captains 55.00/hr and stock options, blah blah they’re millionaires now, who fucken cares. I support WJ pilots in their fight to stop the spiral dive, I truly hope they can end the race because guess what, if Swoop lowers the bar, you can bet AC will follow suit.

“Zip was a Canadian discount airline headquartered in Hangar 101 at Calgary International Airport, Calgary, Alberta.[1] It was launched by Air Canada as a no-frills subsidiary in September 2002. It operated a fleet of 12 Boeing 737 aircraft, each painted in a bright, neon colour (blue, fuchsia, green, and orange) with a single class of service. The subsidiary was headed by former WestJet CEO, Steve Smith.[2]

A Zip Boeing 737-200.
As a direct competition to Canada's leading low-cost carrier WestJet, Zip flew mostly between the western cities of Abbotsford, Calgary, Edmonton, Vancouver, Saskatoon, Regina and Winnipeg.

Zip ceased operations in September 2004 when Air Canada resumed a full schedule on its western routes.”
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Re: Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

#169 Post by Fanblade » Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:01 pm

groundpilot wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:24 am
Transonic wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:59 am
groundpilot wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:57 am
Totally agree with FanBlade,

However,

Hard for AC pilots to stand almighty when SWOOP 2nd years pilots are paid more than AC 2nd years pilots.

$69.62 & $63.12 respectively

So we have Widebody FOs at mainline making less than ULCC FOs
Yet completely ignoring the Target Benefit Pension, higher per diems, lower OT trigger, 2 for 1 YOS towards Captain pay scale etc.
All true.

However, I think you're missing the point.

MAINLINE VS ULCC

It shouldn't be close but yet it is

Your right they should be exactly the same. (Not trying to defend AC’s starting wages. I no they are poor.)

A pilot is a pilot. A 737 pilot should cost xxx period. Mainline, ULLC, Flying rubber dog shyt. Doesn’t matter.

ALPA’s strategy for US carrier pay recovery after the 911 bankruptcies was to make sure each pilot group either met or exceeded the previous benchmark while negotiating. IOW if Delta managed 200/hour for a 737 that was the new benchmark. The next group to negotiate had to meet or exceed that benchmark. If they didn’t ALPA wouldn’t allow the deal. This is precisely why we are seeing stratospheric wage increases by the likes of Spirit currently.

The US carriers have had a decade of one upping each other. We are one downing each other.
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Re: Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

#170 Post by Fanblade » Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:04 pm

Transonic wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:59 am

2 for 1 YOS towards Captain pay scale etc.
This is no longer correct. It was one of the biggest changes in the last contract. All years of service now count toward captain pay scales at Rouge.
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Re: Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

#171 Post by schnitzel2k3 » Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:19 pm

Bede - none of those costs can be controlled internally - those are all external elements and usually out of the control of an operation. What would have been more appropriate was managers (upper and middle) reducing bonuses and cutting their salary to make this happen. But that won't happen.

Now something to consider wrt costs, I know they aren't flying out of Pearson or Vancouver - so cheaper airports (lower landing fees and taxes). Probably have WS fuel contracts, insurance and mx. Hangars will be newish and ~30% of the rest of the overall costs for most operations are manpower - so...if the WS pilot group won't work with them to reduce this expense - I ask again - why should Greg keep the flying under a teal tail? The one major cost he can technically control by going to open market you won't let him adjust.

I'm only playing devils advocate on this matter - WS pilots aren't well compensated anymore for what you guys do. Hence why I don't fly teal. No hate there, just my recongnizing your plight.

Now IF I WERE A WS pilot my thoughts would be:

If pilots want to fly a 737 for 100k - and burn themselves out - what's the damage? If they are finding guys to fly it - let them fill their boots. Saves me from burning out and doing the hard work. I'd be more upset as a WS pilot being put on these routes and forced to take a pay cut - let somebody else break their balls flying 100+ duty hours a month. I'd be buying the guy a Starbucks and patting them on the back for saving me from doing it myself.

The only guys who I would expect to be upset would be WS F/Os looking for a teal tail upgrade at current salary. Everyone else should be laughing and praying they don't have to fly pink. Let's make one thing clear, Pink will not set a precedent for any operator other than Flair (the only other ULCC in Canada) - who currently pay 7000 less for the 737 I might add.

Food for thought.

S.
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Re: Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

#172 Post by mbav8r » Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:49 pm

Schnitzel,
You’re clearly missing the big picture, swoop jobs will be to the detriment of WJ jobs, it’s starts small and grows from there, the big wigs have said exactly that!

“In June, when we have all of the regulatory approvals, we will announce southern flying into the U.S. and Mexico, potentially the Caribbean as well,” Bob Cummings, WestJet’s executive vice president of strategy, said in an interview. “We will aggressively go after the cross-border opportunity, which is quite significant.”
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Re: Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

#173 Post by schnitzel2k3 » Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:25 pm

Perhaps I am missing the big picture...but if Swoop starts flying south - how will that impact WS current market?

They don't fly out of the same hubs - it's a different market - different passengers. Technically your mainline seats and salary should remain unchanged as far as economics is concerned.

Uncertainty is human's greatest fear.

I think people are taking issue with this, not because it lowers the bar, but because they feel something was taken from them when in fact nothing has changed regarding their employment.

If WS WAWCON is negatively affected going into the next contract, ALPA should be fired. Same goes for ACPA because these markets (edit: flying is comparable) are not comparable.

The problem is that we are due for our cyclical recession right around when these contracts are up for negotiation - which is definitely not going to help matters. That is when you need to stand tall and remind Greg that WS is not Swoop, or Flair.

S.
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Re: Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

#174 Post by schnitzel2k3 » Sat Feb 03, 2018 6:00 pm

Furthermore - all Swoop is going to do is remove qualified pilots from the open market - and if the 'shortage' garble is correct - should create a situation where fewer candidates are applying to the mainlines and their associated regionals.

More seats, less pilots - eventually leads to higher salaries.

I see Swoop similar to Sky Regional - same work - half the pay. I don't believe any negative changes took place regarding ACs WAWCON. They just farmed out the dirty work.

I hope a positive LOA (is that the correct term union wise for a mid contract adjustment) is in your future thanks to this endeavour.

S.
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Re: Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

#175 Post by mbav8r » Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:26 pm

SR was not a tool to lower wages at mainline, in fact it was sold to ACPA as a tool to be used against Jazz and you can look at our current wages to see the effect.
If you think that once swoop is up and running they won’t implement it on routes currently operated by WJ, you haven’t been around very long.
Furthermore, when they remove 10 fins from WJ and transfer them over to swoop, well ahead of the 787 deliveries, should the Captains reduced to FO positions be laughing at how hard those poor swoop bastards are working. I don’t have a business degree but I have been in this racket for just about 30 years now and management are nothing if not predictable!
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