Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

[JohnnyHotRocks]

So if the flying went to Westjet pilots, would they do it for less money?
Serious question

[FL410AV8R]

So if the flying went to Westjet pilots, would they do it for less money?
Serious question

NO

[schnitzel2k3]

And another serious question, why should the WS management bring the flying back to you?

Rouge and their unwilling pilot association made internal concessions to help AC target the LCC market. Not saying it was the right thing - but it seems to have worked out.

I don't see why - if you can create and agree to Encore - and you really want the Swoop flying - you wouldn't be more flexible about modifying your agreement.

I'm extending an olive branch now- and I absolutely do not agree with their benefit package using WS benefits under a 'completely' different company. If they want to be separate - be separate.

S.

[Bede]

I don't see why - if you can create and agree to Encore - and you really want the Swoop flying - you wouldn't be more flexible about modifying your agreement.

Because we have an agreement that sets pay rates for the B737 aircraft. I don't see the fuel companies, insurance, Boeing, etc cutting there rates. Why should we?

[Fanblade]

Rouge and their unwilling pilot association made internal concessions to help AC target the LCC market. Not saying it was the right thing - but it seems to have worked out.

I don't see why - if you can create and agree to Encore - and you really want the Swoop flying - you wouldn't be more flexible about modifying your agreement.

Rouge pay and working conditions on the 319 were lowered at AC in an attempt to match 737 pay and working conditions at WJ.

WJ management is now attempting to re establish the cost advantage they lost when Rouge started.

Air Canada wanted pilot costs to be equal to the competition.

Westjet wants Pilot costs to be cheaper than the competition.

There is a philosophical difference in expectations between AC & WJ management. One wants an equal playing field. The other wants a cost advantage.

It’s long past time WJ and AC management understand clearly. Get your cost advantage elsewhere. No longer on the backs of pilots.

If we don’t the philosophical difference between the two managements will drive a continued downward spiral. First WJ wages get lowered with Swoop. Then AC will want it matched.

[groundpilot]

Totally agree with FanBlade,

However,

Hard for AC pilots to stand almighty when SWOOP 2nd years pilots are paid more than AC 2nd years pilots.

$69.62 & $63.12 respectively

So we have Widebody FOs at mainline making less than ULCC FOs

[Transonic]

Totally agree with FanBlade,

However,

Hard for AC pilots to stand almighty when SWOOP 2nd years pilots are paid more than AC 2nd years pilots.

$69.62 & $63.12 respectively

So we have Widebody FOs at mainline making less than ULCC FOs

Yet completely ignoring the Target Benefit Pension, higher per diems, lower OT trigger, 2 for 1 YOS towards Captain pay scale etc.

[groundpilot]

Totally agree with FanBlade,

However,

Hard for AC pilots to stand almighty when SWOOP 2nd years pilots are paid more than AC 2nd years pilots.

$69.62 & $63.12 respectively

So we have Widebody FOs at mainline making less than ULCC FOs

Yet completely ignoring the Target Benefit Pension, higher per diems, lower OT trigger, 2 for 1 YOS towards Captain pay scale etc.

All true.

However, I think you're missing the point.

MAINLINE VS ULCC

It shouldn't be close but yet it is

Should we have an Air Canada vs North American Legacy Carriers review?

[eyebrow737]

Totally agree with FanBlade,

However,

Hard for AC pilots to stand almighty when SWOOP 2nd years pilots are paid more than AC 2nd years pilots.

$69.62 & $63.12 respectively

So we have Widebody FOs at mainline making less than ULCC FOs

Yet completely ignoring the Target Benefit Pension, higher per diems, lower OT trigger, 2 for 1 YOS towards Captain pay scale etc.

All true.

However, I think you're missing the point.

MAINLINE VS ULCC

It shouldn't be close but yet it is

Should we have an Air Canada vs North American Legacy Carriers review?

How about Canada vs the Rest of the world Salary review? The sniffling, arguing, backstabbing, status culturing, childish pontificating nature of this thread would explain everything.

Most of you are an airline managements dream.

[tallyho]

Why should a ULCC pilot flying a 737 be paid less than a Mainline 737 pilot? They shouldnt, same job, same responsibilty.

[telex]

Why should a ULCC pilot flying a 737 be paid less than a Mainline 737 pilot? They shouldnt, same job, same responsibilty.

You mean like a ZIP pilot?

[FL410AV8R]

How about Canada vs the Rest of the world Salary review? The sniffling, arguing, backstabbing, status culturing, childish pontificating nature of this thread would explain everything.

Most of you are an airline managements dream.

What he said.

[Boreas]

How about Canada vs the Rest of the world Salary review?

THIS!

Whats wrong with Canada? Honestly?

A quick look south of the boarder and you can't help but see pilot groups getting better and better deals. I think Spirit airlines is about to sign something like a 43% compensation increase...
And what does Canada get? GGNs and Skys and Swoops?

What are they doing that we're not?

[saltypilot]

How about Canada vs the Rest of the world Salary review?

THIS!

Whats wrong with Canada? Honestly?

A quick look south of the boarder and you can't help but see pilot groups getting better and better deals. I think Spirit airlines is about to sign something like a 43% compensation increase...
And what does Canada get? GGNs and Skys and Swoops?

What are they doing that we're not?

They’re finally getting their collective shit together and uniting. That’s what they are doing that we are not, or should I say have yet to do. Enough is enough. Time’s up. I believe the tide is turning.

[Boreas]

Ok.

So now that WestJet is unionized. Are they pushing for significantly better wages or are they only focused on combating Swoop?
Does anyone know what their new contract will focus on?
What's a likely time-frame for getting it signed?

[Victory]

A lot of it comes down to our government. Remember Air Canada's contract was forced down their throat by the government just as an example. And what they pay sets the bar for the whole country really. This country as a whole doesn't really believe anyone should be highly paid for what they do so no one is going to complain when they are so heavy handed. To add to the huge glut of local pilots they also allow a lot of foreign pilots to get permission to work in Canada fairly easily. I don't just mean Sunwing or EVAS, every company I've ever worked for has had non-citizens flying there. Your only option really is to leave.

[FL410AV8R]

How about Canada vs the Rest of the world Salary review?

THIS!

Whats wrong with Canada? Honestly?

A quick look south of the boarder and you can't help but see pilot groups getting better and better deals. I think Spirit airlines is about to sign something like a 43% compensation increase...
And what does Canada get? GGNs and Skys and Swoops?

What are they doing that we're not?

Solidarity.

Spirit pilots gave their negotiators a 100% strike mandate.

Delta and American both negotiated industry uplift clauses into their CBAs.

Southwest is militantly defensive of their flying.

But here in Canada we give omnipotent powers to airline executives and are too polite to call them out when they are screwing over our profession.

Thankfully the tide does seem to be turning and the pilot shortage I heard about in flight school 30+ years ago is actually beginning. It is way past time to stop the downward slide of our profession.

[mbav8r]

Why should a ULCC pilot flying a 737 be paid less than a Mainline 737 pilot? They shouldnt, same job, same responsibilty.

You mean like a ZIP pilot?

The important part for those who can’t remember history is in bold, WJ started by paying captains 55.00/hr and stock options, blah blah they’re millionaires now, who fucken cares. I support WJ pilots in their fight to stop the spiral dive, I truly hope they can end the race because guess what, if Swoop lowers the bar, you can bet AC will follow suit.

“Zip was a Canadian discount airline headquartered in Hangar 101 at Calgary International Airport, Calgary, Alberta.[1] It was launched by Air Canada as a no-frills subsidiary in September 2002. It operated a fleet of 12 Boeing 737 aircraft, each painted in a bright, neon colour (blue, fuchsia, green, and orange) with a single class of service. The subsidiary was headed by former WestJet CEO, Steve Smith.[2]

A Zip Boeing 737-200.
As a direct competition to Canada's leading low-cost carrier WestJet, Zip flew mostly between the western cities of Abbotsford, Calgary, Edmonton, Vancouver, Saskatoon, Regina and Winnipeg.

Zip ceased operations in September 2004 when Air Canada resumed a full schedule on its western routes.”

[Fanblade]

Totally agree with FanBlade,

However,

Hard for AC pilots to stand almighty when SWOOP 2nd years pilots are paid more than AC 2nd years pilots.

$69.62 & $63.12 respectively

So we have Widebody FOs at mainline making less than ULCC FOs

Yet completely ignoring the Target Benefit Pension, higher per diems, lower OT trigger, 2 for 1 YOS towards Captain pay scale etc.

All true.

However, I think you're missing the point.

MAINLINE VS ULCC

It shouldn't be close but yet it is

Your right they should be exactly the same. (Not trying to defend AC’s starting wages. I no they are poor.)

A pilot is a pilot. A 737 pilot should cost xxx period. Mainline, ULLC, Flying rubber dog shyt. Doesn’t matter.

ALPA’s strategy for US carrier pay recovery after the 911 bankruptcies was to make sure each pilot group either met or exceeded the previous benchmark while negotiating. IOW if Delta managed 200/hour for a 737 that was the new benchmark. The next group to negotiate had to meet or exceed that benchmark. If they didn’t ALPA wouldn’t allow the deal. This is precisely why we are seeing stratospheric wage increases by the likes of Spirit currently.

The US carriers have had a decade of one upping each other. We are one downing each other.

[Fanblade]

2 for 1 YOS towards Captain pay scale etc.

This is no longer correct. It was one of the biggest changes in the last contract. All years of service now count toward captain pay scales at Rouge.