WHY SO MUCH HATE AGAINST SWOOP??

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Anticyclone
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WHY SO MUCH HATE AGAINST SWOOP??

Post by Anticyclone »

Im not trying to judge anyone or making a point im just surprised to see so many tchit tchat about that SWOOP thing, ACPA declaring war and drivers talking like traders on something that does not exist, so why all that noise about SWOOP?
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Anon1234
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Re: WHY SO MUCH HATE AGAINST SWOOP??

Post by Anon1234 »

Because the level of Corporate Greed displayed by Westjet Management is disgusting. Westjet/Encore do something to try and get their WAWCON closer to some of the other competitors and Westjet decides to undercut them by creating this new piece of Swoop (look up Swoop in the Urban Dictionary). Now the pilot population as a whole will display that no matter how much individuals talk about not undercutting each other, as long as the carrot is big enough, $%#@ the other guys.
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Re: WHY SO MUCH HATE AGAINST SWOOP??

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

Anon1234 wrote: Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:24 pm Because the level of Corporate Greed displayed by Westjet Management is disgusting. Westjet/Encore do something to try and get their WAWCON closer to some of the other competitors and Westjet decides to undercut them by creating this new piece of Swoop (look up Swoop in the Urban Dictionary). Now the pilot population as a whole will display that no matter how much individuals talk about not undercutting each other, as long as the carrot is big enough, $%#@ the other guys.
You must be a Westjetter, posting anonymously and with such love for your management team. How's that union working for ya?

You guys are hilariously hypocritical and created this mess yourselves. Who the hell cares if Westjet puts up 10 birds under Swoop and pays a bunch of pilots peanuts to fly around and be miserable like you? Do you feel entitled to those planes? Are you out of a job because of Swoop?

Likely not, but like every other LCC (which Westjet is just like Rouge - please don't kid yourself - WS =/= AC) and ULCC, this isn't a groundbreaking race to the bottom - this is just economics. Passengers are cheap. Investors are hungry. ULCCs are going to fly the bottom feeders.

Let the pilots get their ratings and time and move on. There won't be any flow through to screw up your precious seniority list. No one is losing a job - in fact 200-300 pilots might be into a job - which means less pilots applying to WS, AC, Transat, Sunwing, and the likes, which means when it comes time to negotiate, YOU and your Union have more leverage due to a low supply of bottom feeders. Boom. Now sit back, drink your coolaid, and chill tf out.

S.
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Re: WHY SO MUCH HATE AGAINST SWOOP??

Post by confusedalot »

Funny how my dentist and my lawyerand my car dealer and my real estate agent won't drop their prices but here we are with another race to the bottom called swoop. :lol:

Virtually everything in life is going up in price even in a ''pilot shortage'' scenario.

My dentist does not get it, my lawyer does not get it, I don't get it. So much for economic theory.......
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Re: WHY SO MUCH HATE AGAINST SWOOP??

Post by TheStig »

Anticyclone wrote: Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:20 pm Im not trying to judge anyone or making a point im just surprised to see so many tchit tchat about that SWOOP thing, ACPA declaring war and drivers talking like traders on something that does not exist, so why all that noise about SWOOP?
I'm not at Westjet and even I can tell you who built that airline into what it is today, I'll give you a hint, it wasn't their current CEO. The crews at Westjet have flown more hours at lower rates, stayed in dumpy airport hotels, worked to CARs limits, groomed airplanes, with no pensions. In the past few years the pilot group watched the port system pulled out from under their feet while the majority of growth was at Encore. Westjets employees have way more riding on the airlines long term success than anyone, do you know how much of their annual remuneration is derived from stock options and profit sharing? I suspect this is why they've put up with being pushed around by their executives as much as they have.

There are good reasons most airline pilot groups are unionized and there are good reasons why unions have rights within Canada. If you want to sit at your computer and take cheap shots at unions go ahead, I welcome you to go (with your highly coveted type rating) to the middle east (or just stay there and fly your A380). The Westjet pilots 'own' the flying that Westjet does, scope is reciprocal, Westjet pilots can not go and moonlight at Sunwing. That's how it works. That's why the term 'Scab' is being used.

Westjets management need to negotiate with its Pilots, it's just that simple.
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Re: WHY SO MUCH HATE AGAINST SWOOP??

Post by Anon1234 »

schnitzel2k3 wrote: Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:37 pm
Anon1234 wrote: Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:24 pm Because the level of Corporate Greed displayed by Westjet Management is disgusting. Westjet/Encore do something to try and get their WAWCON closer to some of the other competitors and Westjet decides to undercut them by creating this new piece of Swoop (look up Swoop in the Urban Dictionary). Now the pilot population as a whole will display that no matter how much individuals talk about not undercutting each other, as long as the carrot is big enough, $%#@ the other guys.
You must be a Westjetter, posting anonymously and with such love for your management team. How's that union working for ya?

You guys are hilariously hypocritical and created this mess yourselves. Who the hell cares if Westjet puts up 10 birds under Swoop and pays a bunch of pilots peanuts to fly around and be miserable like you? Do you feel entitled to those planes? Are you out of a job because of Swoop?

Likely not, but like every other LCC (which Westjet is just like Rouge - please don't kid yourself - WS =/= AC) and ULCC, this isn't a groundbreaking race to the bottom - this is just economics. Passengers are cheap. Investors are hungry. ULCCs are going to fly the bottom feeders.

Let the pilots get their ratings and time and move on. There won't be any flow through to screw up your precious seniority list. No one is losing a job - in fact 200-300 pilots might be into a job - which means less pilots applying to WS, AC, Transat, Sunwing, and the likes, which means when it comes time to negotiate, YOU and your Union have more leverage due to a low supply of bottom feeders. Boom. Now sit back, drink your coolaid, and chill tf out.

S.
I guess I must have been pretty convincing, but I'm in no way connected to Westjet. Just someone who doesn't think "Investors need to be hungry" and the world would be a better place if everybody wasn't trying to pad their pockets left and right. (I always enjoy your points of view and appreciate your thoughts in your last paragraph).
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Re: WHY SO MUCH HATE AGAINST SWOOP??

Post by Anticyclone »

Unions and i go way back and i can tell you that the behind the scenes are not glamour, unionization got us down to 36 bucks/hr.

The westjet pilots or any pilots worldwide never owned and never will own anything besides their roster.

Somebody mentioned peanuts, im not familiar with Swoop 3 steps payscale but i believe the 58/hr is better than 36/hr.

And finally i find the A380 very ugly.
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Re: WHY SO MUCH HATE AGAINST SWOOP??

Post by HansDietrich »

Another thread on Swoop? I'm personally excited about Canada Jetlines. They seem like a top notch place to work! Thank God I'm working for a reputable airline making a lot of money. I chose to take the moral high ground, not the shitty ULCC. I fly the flag! I got a hat!
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Re: WHY SO MUCH HATE AGAINST SWOOP??

Post by PostmasterGeneral »

HansDietrich wrote: Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:35 am Another thread on Swoop? I'm personally excited about Canada Jetlines. They seem like a top notch place to work! Thank God I'm working for a reputable airline making a lot of money. I chose to take the moral high ground, not the shitty ULCC. I fly the flag! I got a hat!
Flying the flag and proudly sporting the hat, but bitching about how much you hate Jazz? Haven’t you quit yet?
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Re: WHY SO MUCH HATE AGAINST SWOOP??

Post by Loner »

Unions or not;
Pilots’ shortage or not;
Low wage or not;
Company A, B, C;
All these considerations are not relevant until we realize we are all dispensable.
Next!
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Re: WHY SO MUCH HATE AGAINST SWOOP??

Post by NewCommercialPilot »

Anon1234 wrote: Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:24 pm Because the level of Corporate Greed displayed by Westjet Management is disgusting. Westjet/Encore do something to try and get their WAWCON closer to some of the other competitors and Westjet decides to undercut them by creating this new piece of Swoop (look up Swoop in the Urban Dictionary). Now the pilot population as a whole will display that no matter how much individuals talk about not undercutting each other, as long as the carrot is big enough, $%#@ the other guys.
Hold on now. Let's not re-write history to favour how you felt things went down.

Step 1: WestJet declares it will set up an ULCC arm.

Step 2: WJPA and WJ engaged in high level talks at determining wages for the Swoop pilots. Parity between WJ and Swoop pilots was mentioned by the WJPA. WJ leadership did not protest. All appearances are that the agreed wage rate would have been very close to mainline.

Step 3: WJ pilots (61.3%) decide they do not want a collaborative relationship between the company and the pilots and certify with ALPA. They want black and white period. Everything contractual. Everything per the rules.

Step 4: WJ pilots (61.3%) get the non-collaborative relationship results they sought. They are frozen out of the Swoop flight deck, with no way to get in.

Step 5: WJ pilots (61.3%), encouraged by ALPA, now are upset by the results of THEIR OWN ACTIONS. WJ pilots (61.3%, maybe more), now realize that life ain't fair.




How's that? That clear things up for you?
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Re: WHY SO MUCH HATE AGAINST SWOOP??

Post by PostmasterGeneral »

NCP, you seem to live in this fantasy world where WJ management and the pilot group (WJPA) are all sitting around a campfire singing kum by yah.

Why do you think pilots voted hugely in favour of ALPA? Management’s only interest is boosting the share prices. They don’t give a sh!t about the pilots.
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Re: WHY SO MUCH HATE AGAINST SWOOP??

Post by Snagmaster E »

NewCommercialPilot wrote: Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:19 am
Hold on now. Let's not re-write history to favour how you felt things went down.

Step 1: WestJet declares it will set up an ULCC arm.

Step 2: WJPA and WJ engaged in high level talks at determining wages for the Swoop pilots. Parity between WJ and Swoop pilots was mentioned by the WJPA. WJ leadership did not protest. All appearances are that the agreed wage rate would have been very close to mainline.

....
How's that? That clear things up for you?

Hmmmm. Any proof of this? Seems like something that they might have put out there since the ULCC announcement was the same day as the ALPA drive.

Sooooo I’ll ask again: Do you have proof of this?
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Re: WHY SO MUCH HATE AGAINST SWOOP??

Post by HansDietrich »

PostmasterGeneral wrote: Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:41 am
HansDietrich wrote: Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:35 am Another thread on Swoop? I'm personally excited about Canada Jetlines. They seem like a top notch place to work! Thank God I'm working for a reputable airline making a lot of money. I chose to take the moral high ground, not the shitty ULCC. I fly the flag! I got a hat!
Flying the flag and proudly sporting the hat, but bitching about how much you hate Jazz? Haven’t you quit yet?
It's called "sarcasms". I know the internet is not really the easiest place to portray it, but come on...
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Re: WHY SO MUCH HATE AGAINST SWOOP??

Post by boeingguy »

NCP,

The WJPA who had “a seat at the table” were blind sided by the Swoop announcement. Thier words not mine. So how did the WJPA negotiate if the didn’t have a clue on what was coming?

BG
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Re: WHY SO MUCH HATE AGAINST SWOOP??

Post by sanjet »

You cannot blame shareholders want to squeeze more out labor and assets. It’s just disasppointing that during one of the most profitable eras in airline history and with a true pilot shortage, this is being tolerated.

Again you cannot blame WJ management, they are looking out for their one and only “team”: shareholders. If you think the loyalty is elsewhere, you haven’t been in this game long enough.
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Re: WHY SO MUCH HATE AGAINST SWOOP??

Post by Rowdy »

NewCommercialPilot wrote: Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:19 am
Step 3: WJ pilots (61.3%) decide they do not want a collaborative relationship between the company and the pilots and certify with ALPA. They want black and white period. Everything contractual. Everything per the rules.

Okay, so more than half of those that VOTED (almost two thirds) wanted a union. How many THAT VOTED no of the 38.7% had ties to management, training or the WJPA?

How many ACTUAL line drivers voted no? I bet ya its a very very small number. So stop spouting off like theres a majority that don't want the representation.

Collaborative? hah! Thats a joke right?

Yes, everything per the rules, so they don't have some wing nut lunatic stealing all of the overtime flying for themselves via a loophole they've exploited.
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Re: WHY SO MUCH HATE AGAINST SWOOP??

Post by Mach1 »

NewCommercialPilot wrote: Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:19 am
Hold on now. Let's not re-write history to favour how you felt things went down.

Step 1: WestJet declares it will set up an ULCC arm.

Step 2: WJPA and WJ engaged in high level talks at determining wages for the Swoop pilots. Parity between WJ and Swoop pilots was mentioned by the WJPA. WJ leadership did not protest. All appearances are that the agreed wage rate would have been very close to mainline.

Step 3: WJ pilots (61.3%) decide they do not want a collaborative relationship between the company and the pilots and certify with ALPA. They want black and white period. Everything contractual. Everything per the rules.

Step 4: WJ pilots (61.3%) get the non-collaborative relationship results they sought. They are frozen out of the Swoop flight deck, with no way to get in.

Step 5: WJ pilots (61.3%), encouraged by ALPA, now are upset by the results of THEIR OWN ACTIONS. WJ pilots (61.3%, maybe more), now realize that life ain't fair.




How's that? That clear things up for you?
Where are you getting any of this from? Unless you have some access to some super secret meetings that took place and information that was NEVER shared with the rest of the pilot group except you... I doubt your information. There were no memo's, no emails, no discussions with WJPA people who said any of this before or after the vote took place. You keep saying this stuff, prove it.
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Re: WHY SO MUCH HATE AGAINST SWOOP??

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Re: WHY SO MUCH HATE AGAINST SWOOP??

Post by lownslow »

confusedalot wrote: Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:06 pm Funny how my dentist and my lawyerand my car dealer and my real estate agent won't drop their prices
It's relatively well known that dentists charge different amounts to different patients for the same thing, I'm sure lawyers are the same deal, car dealers sell cheap cars for those who don't want the frills of a fancy expensive one, but I know SFA about real estate so you may have me there.
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