Marshmallows & kids

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Bede
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Marshmallows & kids

#1 Post by Bede » Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:52 pm

Sorry, another Swoop thread.

This connection was raised by a colleague of mine on another forum, but I figured I'd add my 2 cents.

Here's a video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yo4WF3cSd9Q

This video is of a long running test in psychology on delayed gratification. In the test, a child is given a marshmallow. He can eat it now or if he waits, gets 2 marshmallows. In the long run, the kids who decided to wait to get 2 marshmallows had higher incomes and higher career success as adults than the children who immediately ate the marshmallows. I see a lot of parallels between this Swoop thing and the kids who decided to eat the marshmallows. Some of us believe that you can be patient and eventually the rewards will follow. Unfortunately others are short sighted and want the job now, on the shiny new jet, at below market rates. Their competitive advantage is their willingness to work for cheaper than their colleagues. If they waited though, they'd still get the job on the jet, but at significantly higher wages.

Here's where the reality and analogy diverge: In reality, two guys get 1 "marshmallow". If both wait, they both get 2 marshmallows later. However, one guy can eat both marshmallows now and neither will get any more marshmallows later. That is why some guys are so wound up about others who are willing to jump in right away and take the sub standard pay now as opposed to waiting and getting that job at the proper rate. STOP EATING MY DAMN MARSHMALLOW!

This brings me back to the correlation between delayed gratification and success later in life. All of us know of a pilot (or many pilots) that always jumped at the first crap job offered. They were the one's busting rules at the insistence of their scumbag operators, paying predatory training bonds, flying poorly maintained aircraft, etc. Think about those people for a minute. Where are they now? Most likely still working for crap operators, but flying bigger airplanes. The guys who waited patiently at their decent 703 job ended up with a decent 704 or 705 job.

These jobs aren't going to disappear if you don't jump now; they'll be re-offered to you at the proper rates.
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Re: Marshmallows & kids

#2 Post by montado » Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:06 pm

Haha, I appreciate the simplified analogy.

So what if the kid is already eating the one marshmallow somewhere like Georgian, Encore or Jazz on the "B"scale? What is the difference waiting in a position where you are already paid below the "standard". You know the only one who can win the battle is Westjet pilots and ALPA. By the sounds of it they already have a plan coming into place. I would be pretty happy to see Westjet pilots flying for Swoop, an negotiating a contract that works for them. This is not about new guys taking lower paying jobs screwing everyone at the top. I think it works from the top down. The argument that in the future companies will negotiate pay by showing you swoops pay scale, how hard is it to pull up any other carriers pay scale. Southwest, American, United, Spirit etc. Dig in your heels.
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Re: Marshmallows & kids

#3 Post by SuperchargedRS » Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:46 pm

Presenting facts not in evendence.

How does someone taking the first job link them to breaking regs or paying bonds?

I agree with patience being good in moderation
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Re: Marshmallows & kids

#4 Post by Bede » Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:57 pm

montado wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:06 pm
Haha, I appreciate the simplified analogy.

So what if the kid is already eating the one marshmallow somewhere like Georgian, Encore or Jazz on the "B"scale? What is the difference waiting in a position where you are already paid below the "standard". You know the only one who can win the battle is Westjet pilots and ALPA. By the sounds of it they already have a plan coming into place. I would be pretty happy to see Westjet pilots flying for Swoop, an negotiating a contract that works for them. This is not about new guys taking lower paying jobs screwing everyone at the top. I think it works from the top down. The argument that in the future companies will negotiate pay by showing you swoops pay scale, how hard is it to pull up any other carriers pay scale. Southwest, American, United, Spirit etc. Dig in your heels.
This isn't about the sr guys vs the new guys. It's about the new guys (Encore) given a chance to get their careers to the same place as the senior guys. If this was properly negotiated, Encore guys, in order of seniority, would have the opportunity to fly a jet at proper 737 rates. Instead, all it takes is a couple of guys to jump up and say, "I'll do it for cheaper if I can get there now", and the whole apple cart gets upset.
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Re: Marshmallows & kids

#5 Post by mbav8r » Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:37 pm

montado wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:06 pm
Haha, I appreciate the simplified analogy.

So what if the kid is already eating the one marshmallow somewhere like Georgian, Encore or Jazz on the "B"scale? What is the difference waiting in a position where you are already paid below the "standard". You know the only one who can win the battle is Westjet pilots and ALPA. By the sounds of it they already have a plan coming into place. I would be pretty happy to see Westjet pilots flying for Swoop, an negotiating a contract that works for them. This is not about new guys taking lower paying jobs screwing everyone at the top. I think it works from the top down. The argument that in the future companies will negotiate pay by showing you swoops pay scale, how hard is it to pull up any other carriers pay scale. Southwest, American, United, Spirit etc. Dig in your heels.
Montado, remember when the starting salary at Jazz was only about 2000 less than AC for the first year and we all had a DB pension and years of service counted towards the left seat pay? Maybe you don’t, it was before Sky Regional and GGN started doing the same work for less money, all those pilots had to have their marshmallow now and apparently now that the damage is done some of those pilots can justify eating the WJ pilots marshmallow too.
We can go back in history and point out previous groups who couldn’t wait but doesn’t it have to STOP before we hit the bottom, in case anyone hasn’t been paying attention, the “race to the bottom” well it’s Canadian pilots at the moment.
I was recently sent an article from a family member, tongue in cheek about swoop and asked if I was interested in switching companies, I responded that I had no interest in being a scab pilot and besides it’s a pay cut from my current position.
Jazz pilot in solidarity with WJ/Encore Pilots!
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Re: Marshmallows & kids

#6 Post by JohnnyHotRocks » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:05 pm

How about "Jazz pilot in solidarity with Skyservice 757 pilot".....oh wait....we know how that race to the bottom ended. Short memories up on those pedestals
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Re: Marshmallows & kids

#7 Post by Noo » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:13 pm

Is there anything to the rumors the WestJet Link will be getting flow to Swoop with no interviews?
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Re: Marshmallows & kids

#8 Post by DropTanks » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:00 pm

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Re: Marshmallows & kids

#9 Post by digits_ » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:21 pm

The old guys eating 5 marshmallows are telling the new guys trying to get 2 marshmallows to eat that they should be happy only eating 1 marshmallow, because otherwise it might happen that the old guys might end up with only 4 marshmallows to eat. If the new guys settle for the 1 marshmallow, they might eventually make it to eating 3 marshmallows, but never more, 'cause the old guys eating 5 marshmallows made sure new guys will never reach that level. Meanwhile the old guys are cranky, 'cause a 6th marshmallow would taste soo much better. In some countries, they would even get 7 marshmallows to eat, but they'd die from diabetes.

:wink:
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Re: Marshmallows & kids

#10 Post by mbav8r » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:43 pm

JohnnyHotRocks wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:05 pm
How about "Jazz pilot in solidarity with Skyservice 757 pilot".....oh wait....we know how that race to the bottom ended. Short memories up on those pedestals
How about, you’re a fucken idiot who doesn’t understand what status pay is.
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Re: Marshmallows & kids

#11 Post by Air.Field » Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:14 pm

so would it be ok if the Swoop flying was done by Encore pilots at status pay of the Q400 wages?
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Re: Marshmallows & kids

#12 Post by RidersRule » Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:15 pm

mbav8r wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:43 pm
JohnnyHotRocks wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:05 pm
How about "Jazz pilot in solidarity with Skyservice 757 pilot".....oh wait....we know how that race to the bottom ended. Short memories up on those pedestals
How about, you’re a fucken idiot who doesn’t understand what status pay is.
Ya can't fix stupid...why am I craving a campfire smore right now...
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Re: Marshmallows & kids

#13 Post by montado » Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:43 pm

I’m curious at Jazz anyone know how many are on the “B” scale? Has it reached 50% with all the new hires being pumped through there? Does that ratio reflect with ALPA representation or is ALPA all “A” scale? When the music stops it will be great being an FO at those wages {sarcasm}, but I bet the captains leaving early getting a nice retirement package and DB will dust off their hands with a big smile. So the Jazz transition from the 4 marshmallowers to the 2 marshmallowers is nearly complete. But hey no one is blaming Jazz pilots. It’s the Sky and Georgian Scabs that did this to you{sarcasm again}.
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Last edited by montado on Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Marshmallows & kids

#14 Post by JBI » Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:45 am

Bede wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:52 pm
Sorry, another Swoop thread.

This connection was raised by a colleague of mine on another forum, but I figured I'd add my 2 cents.

Here's a video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yo4WF3cSd9Q
...

These jobs aren't going to disappear if you don't jump now; they'll be re-offered to you at the proper rates.
Bede,

I think you'll enjoy this related video. Definitely worth the minute and a half watch (you will laugh!) and it provides a good example of the consequences for getting less rewards for the same type of work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUquKkTmbww
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Re: Marshmallows & kids

#15 Post by JohnnyHotRocks » Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:17 am

mbav8r wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:43 pm
JohnnyHotRocks wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:05 pm
How about "Jazz pilot in solidarity with Skyservice 757 pilot".....oh wait....we know how that race to the bottom ended. Short memories up on those pedestals
How about, you’re a fucken idiot who doesn’t understand what status pay is.
Hahahahahaha good reply! :rolleyes:
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Re: Marshmallows & kids

#16 Post by JohnnyHotRocks » Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:23 am

Mbav8r, please answer the following questions with a simple yes or no.
Were Jazz captains flying the 757 for less than the Skyservice captains who previously flew the contract?
Were Jazz captains the lowest paid 757 pilots in North America?
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Re: Marshmallows & kids

#17 Post by NewCommercialPilot » Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:18 am

I have a friend. My friend was a nice guy. A few years younger than me, but we knew each other from being glider pilot instructors in Air Cadets and later working at the same flight school. My friend went to work at a small regional DHC-8 operation. Soon, in a restructuring, he was offered the chance to take a leave of absence to fly for LIAT on a contract, which he did. Eventually he worked at a company called Air Nova, in Halifax.

My friend worked at Air Nova at a time when Air Canada was offering interviews to Air Nova pilots. Air Nova pilots, along with their fellow ALPA pilots at Air Ontario, Air BC, and Air Alliance (soon to be grouped under one company which eventually became called Jazz), were involved with contentious negotiations trying to get a common seniority list with Air Canada pilots. They would ventually go to court over this issue (see 17 separate court actions: Berry v. Pulley). These ALPA pilots went on strike in 1997. It was not a pleasant affair. In fact, I believe some Air Nova pilots attacked a crew sub-contracted to fly for Air Canada in a YHZ parking lot. It was nasty.

Anyhow, my friend accepted an interview at Air Canada. Many pilots at Air Nova were advising junior pilots (like Bede is trying to do in this thread) to not take the positions at Air Canada. They too offered the carrot of delayed gratification. They had many convinced they would win a common employer action at the CIRB.

They were wrong.

People like the current head of ALPA Canada Board, and our forum member Rudder would have, at that time in the late 90's, counselled young pilots to NOT do an action, or accept a job, likely saying it was in their own (the young pilots) best interest. (This is my story, I can make it up how I please.)

My friend accepted the job at Air Canada. Last month, he completed his 787 Captain course at Air Canada. Rudder and the President of the ALPA Canada Board are flying RJ-700's. Now an RJ-700 is a fine airplane, and similar to the airplane I fly, a 737NG. The point is, had my young friend listened to people supposedly acting in HIS best interest, he would not be Captain of a Dreamliner at Air Canada at less than 50 years of age.

Be like my friend. Act in your own interest. Think your own thoughts. Use your own logic. And if it works for you, take the job at Swoop and the first coffee, when we meet, is on me.

Your supreme spotter of BS,

The One, the Only,

NewCommercialPilot
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Re: Marshmallows & kids

#18 Post by groundpilot » Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:46 am

And be apart of history!!

Continental Lite, a subsidiary of Continental Airlines (1993–1995): It suffered from brand confusion, unprofitable routes, and the lack of parts available at airports for the older planes in its fleet.

United Airlines/United Shuttle (1994–2001): Launched to compete with Southwest Airlines, but customers failed to differentiate between Shuttle and the mainline services. Costs were also nowhere near as competitive as Southwest.

Delta Airlines/Delta Express (1996–2003): Larger planes contributed to longer turn-around times and discontinued services to small cities. Fares weren’t competitive enough. Productivity was too low, and there was brand confusion.

MetroJet/US Airways (1998–2001): Failed to lower costs enough to compete.

Zip/Air Canada (2002–2004): Absorbed into Air Canada’s full schedule on western routes after it bled money to match WestJet’s fares. Media reports at the time stated that Zip was a failed attempt at preserving market dominance and driving out the competition.

Song/Delta Airlines (2003–2006): Pushed out by the competition. Didn’t operate at full capacity.

Ted/United Airlines (2004–2009): Couldn’t survive a spike in fuel prices; brand confusion as Ted customers could book flights on the United sites, which meant airline competed with itself.

Westjet/Swoop (2018 - ???) Time will tell...
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Re: Marshmallows & kids

#19 Post by NewCommercialPilot » Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:48 am

Bede wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:52 pm
This brings me back to the correlation between delayed gratification and success later in life. All of us know of a pilot (or many pilots) that always jumped at the first crap job offered. They were the one's busting rules at the insistence of their scumbag operators, paying predatory training bonds, flying poorly maintained aircraft, etc. Think about those people for a minute. Where are they now? Most likely still working for crap operators, but flying bigger airplanes. The guys who waited patiently at their decent 703 job ended up with a decent 704 or 705 job.

These jobs aren't going to disappear if you don't jump now; they'll be re-offered to you at the proper rates.
Without getting into the issue of what are proper rates are (Sunwing pay is the same as Swoop pay according to my Captain friend at Swoop), I would offer the following commentary on Bede's advice to delay your gratification by NOT accepting the offer to get in on the ground floor of a new airline backed by a well capitalized parent corporation.

Bede suggests that you will get a job offer for (presumably) a 737NG pilot position at better rates than what is on offer now from Swoop (and hence Sunwing, as the pay is the same). Here is what the ALPA MEC Chairperson said recently: "ALPA has been given a strong mandate from our membership that planes owned by the WestJet company should be flown by WestJet pilots,” he said in an emailed statement to the Financial Post. "

What the Chair is saying is that ALPA's intention is that S aircraft be flown by pilots on the WJ (NOT WJE) seniority list. If ALPA is successful, that direct entry Captain job at S you are considering will not be yours. You will instead be offered a BOTL position (possibly as DEC) on a Q400 at WJE, or you will be offered BOTL (1500) position at WJ as FO on the 737NG.

Obviously Bede supports ALPA's position. He wants you, a potential S pilot to do what supports his (Bede) best interests, not yours. He wants you to help him ensure that either S never starts, or when it does, it will be staffed by WJ pilots, not you.

Spot self interest where you see it. And good luck with your application. If you're successful and a Canadian expat currently overseas, welcome home.

NCP

Ya I'm an NCP, <ya you know me>
Ya I'm an NCP, <ya you know me>
Ya I'm an NCP, <ya you know me>

WHO'S DOWN WITH NCP?
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Re: Marshmallows & kids

#20 Post by Fanblade » Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:31 am

NewCommercialPilot wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:18 am
I have a friend. My friend was a nice guy. A few years younger than me, but we knew each other from being glider pilot instructors in Air Cadets and later working at the same flight school. My friend went to work at a small regional DHC-8 operation. Soon, in a restructuring, he was offered the chance to take a leave of absence to fly for LIAT on a contract, which he did. Eventually he worked at a company called Air Nova, in Halifax.

My friend worked at Air Nova at a time when Air Canada was offering interviews to Air Nova pilots. Air Nova pilots, along with their fellow ALPA pilots at Air Ontario, Air BC, and Air Alliance (soon to be grouped under one company which eventually became called Jazz), were involved with contentious negotiations trying to get a common seniority list with Air Canada pilots. They would ventually go to court over this issue (see 17 separate court actions: Berry v. Pulley). These ALPA pilots went on strike in 1997. It was not a pleasant affair. In fact, I believe some Air Nova pilots attacked a crew sub-contracted to fly for Air Canada in a YHZ parking lot. It was nasty.

Anyhow, my friend accepted an interview at Air Canada. Many pilots at Air Nova were advising junior pilots (like Bede is trying to do in this thread) to not take the positions at Air Canada. They too offered the carrot of delayed gratification. They had many convinced they would win a common employer action at the CIRB.

They were wrong.

People like the current head of ALPA Canada Board, and our forum member Rudder would have, at that time in the late 90's, counselled young pilots to NOT do an action, or accept a job, likely saying it was in their own (the young pilots) best interest. (This is my story, I can make it up how I please.)

My friend accepted the job at Air Canada. Last month, he completed his 787 Captain course at Air Canada. Rudder and the President of the ALPA Canada Board are flying RJ-700's. Now an RJ-700 is a fine airplane, and similar to the airplane I fly, a 737NG. The point is, had my young friend listened to people supposedly acting in HIS best interest, he would not be Captain of a Dreamliner at Air Canada at less than 50 years of age.

Be like my friend. Act in your own interest. Think your own thoughts. Use your own logic. And if it works for you, take the job at Swoop and the first coffee, when we meet, is on me.

Your supreme spotter of BS,

The One, the Only,

NewCommercialPilot
That’s actually pretty accurate.

Some individuals did very well, but it came at a huge cost overall. The formation of ACPA. The death of CALPA. CCAA negotiations where regional airlines were trying to bid on mainline work. Drove RJ wages into the tank.

ACPA to this day (20 years) is doing what is in ITS best interest only. Lowering the bar for those that follow. Forming Rouge. New hire pay . Losing DB pensions.

Looking back? Yes a few won. But the cost to the profession over disunity was massive. If I have learned anything it’s this:

Stick together- never let anything divide you. If you do, someone else will try to eat your lunch and a race to the bottom will ensue.

Always negotiate - never deliberately force a situation into arbitration. Solving the situation while plugging your nose is far better than having an outside entity impose a mess and further disunity.

Always work with your company - You will be there longer than management. If they truly “need” someing from you. Find a way to make it happen without lowering the bar. Be creative if you have too. Make sure management knows you want to work with them, but you won’t sell out the profession to do so.

Rising tides float all boats, management is always seeking a way to drain the pool. You are the only barrier. All it takes is a small hole and the pool drains anyway.
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Last edited by Fanblade on Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:44 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Marshmallows & kids

#21 Post by Transonic » Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:35 am

NewCommercialPilot wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:18 am

Anyhow, my friend accepted an interview at Air Canada. Many pilots at Air Nova were advising junior pilots (like Bede is trying to do in this thread) to not take the positions at Air Canada. They too offered the carrot of delayed gratification.
You have your analogy backwards and it supports Bede.

Your friend was paid 1.5-2 marshmallows at Air Nova. He chose to go to Air Canada and be paid 1 marshmallow. He will retire with 6 marshmallows. Awesome, this is Bede's point.

His former coworkers suggested to jump the queue at Air Canada and earn 2,3 possibly 4 marshmallows right away. They have or will retire with 2.5 marshmallows, a delta of 3.5 marshmallows.

The hypothetical decision now is, to go to right seat at WestJet and earn 1ish marshmallow or go left seat Swoop and earn 2 marshmallows. After the length of the career your friend has, you will retire with 5 marshmallows now and hopefully 6 at WestJet. At Swoop, you will retire with 2.5, or 3 MAX. (You will earn 2.5 at WS after two years)

As a thread drift, Swoop will never pay more than 2.5-3 marshmallows if outside the WestJet list. "Pay will be commensurate with the ULCC space." If Swoop applicants are hopeful of raises in the future, you are wrong. You cannot approach WestJet costs otherwise WestJet pilots would do it. (see AC/SKY and AC RAA) You cannot strike effectively because WestJet can easily cover the smaller, single fleet. You are between a rock and a 800lb gorilla. And It's hard to earn a dollar off people who wear sweatpants daily.

For reference, a marshmallow is approx. 50 000 CAD in the above example.
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Re: Marshmallows & kids

#22 Post by digits_ » Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:41 am

I think the poll of the eduction level of pilots is way off.
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Re: Marshmallows & kids

#23 Post by Rowdy » Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:10 am

montado wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:43 pm
I’m curious at Jazz anyone know how many are on the “B” scale? Has it reached 50% with all the new hires being pumped through there? Does that ratio reflect with ALPA representation or is ALPA all “A” scale? When the music stops it will be great being an FO at those wages {sarcasm}, but I bet the captains leaving early getting a nice retirement package and DB will dust off their hands with a big smile. So the Jazz transition from the 4 marshmallowers to the 2 marshmallowers is nearly complete. But hey no one is blaming Jazz pilots. It’s the Sky and Georgian Scabs that did this to you{sarcasm again}.
Over 50% of Jazz is now on the B scale(checked the numbers from the Jan bid), and increasing by 14-16 members every 3 weeks.

Our MEC, who just reelected themselves, is all A-scale. There are however a bunch of LEC members who are B scalers.. and that will continue to increase. AFAIK the negotiators are all A-scale.
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Re: Marshmallows & kids

#24 Post by Air.Field » Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:07 am

digits_ wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:41 am
I think the poll of the eduction level of pilots is way off.
:lol: that was great, thanks for the laugh digits, sadly you maybe right.
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Re: Marshmallows & kids

#25 Post by mbav8r » Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:17 pm

JohnnyHotRocks wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:23 am
Mbav8r, please answer the following questions with a simple yes or no.
Were Jazz captains flying the 757 for less than the Skyservice captains who previously flew the contract?
Were Jazz captains the lowest paid 757 pilots in North America?
Q.1 No
Q.2 No
Because you clearly can’t comprehend how status pay works, I won’t bother trying to explain it again, I do you feel bad for you though, you appear to be one who was affected by that.
I have no idea why Sky Service lost the contract, we didn’t vote on whether or not to fly them, the wage was negotiated based on industry standard and the cost to operate those 57s was as much or more than Sky Service, I believe it was 185/hr factored in. I was told the work was sourced to us because Sky Service was a risk to fail and the tour operator wanted a stable operation, well above my pay grade, just hearsay.
I also said, we could argue all day about who undercut who and when but at some point we need to stop the madness, for what its worth, I was part of the 98% strike mandate that causeed Rovinescu to start SR, so I guess I’ll take part of the blame for that
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