Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

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pianokeys
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Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

#1 Post by pianokeys » Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:03 pm

Ok ok. What the hell is going on at WS?

So, the last few years of the WS forum have been interesting. From what I have read, experienced, and heard from real people is that WS is not what it used to be. Gregg and his management team have changed the environment for the worst at WS. The happy-go-lucky David like airline that could no longer has the pride that was once there. Bad management, employees not being listened to, and the widening respect gap between management and employees sparked the creation of its own union for pilots and FAs, which failed (WJPA) the first round with a troubling near 50/50, all to be brought back with power from the ALPA which now has started bargaining with the company. WS is unionizing.

There is no room, nor no need, for an ULCC in Canada. Not to mention, WS could do what AA and UA are already doing which is offering an ULCC fare class along side their normal fares. With WSs current business model, I really do not understand the need for Swoop.

Seems to me that Gregg (like Frank Lorenzo) is upset that WS (like Eastern and Continental) are unionized and therefore created Swoop in an attempt to start fresh without a union. There are already talks of WS tails going to Swoop, just like Eastern tails going to Continental. As far fetched as it sounds, history does repeat itself, and I wouldnt be too surprised if Gregg divests a large portion of WS in to Swoop in an attempt to bust the ALPAs union. Just like Frank Lorenzo. Just wait until he starts blaming, blaming more I should say, unions for WSs issues.

Gregg is a union buster, Gregg is the modern day Frank Lorenzo.
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Re: Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

#2 Post by Mach1 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:06 pm

pianokeys wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:03 pm
Ok ok. What the hell is going on at WS?
Okay. I'll tell you the scoop. It's like this:
pianokeys wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:03 pm
So, the last few years of the WS forum have been interesting. From what I have read, experienced, and heard from real people is that WS is not what it used to be. Gregg and his management team have changed the environment for the worst at WS. The happy-go-lucky David like airline that could no longer has the pride that was once there. Bad management, employees not being listened to, and the widening respect gap between management and employees sparked the creation of its own union for pilots and FAs, which failed (WJPA) the first round with a troubling near 50/50, all to be brought back with power from the ALPA which now has started bargaining with the company. WS is unionizing.

There is no room, nor no need, for an ULCC in Canada. Not to mention, WS could do what AA and UA are already doing which is offering an ULCC fare class along side their normal fares. With WSs current business model, I really do not understand the need for Swoop.

Seems to me that Gregg (like Frank Lorenzo) is upset that WS (like Eastern and Continental) are unionized and therefore created Swoop in an attempt to start fresh without a union. There are already talks of WS tails going to Swoop, just like Eastern tails going to Continental. As far fetched as it sounds, history does repeat itself, and I wouldnt be too surprised if Gregg divests a large portion of WS in to Swoop in an attempt to bust the ALPAs union. Just like Frank Lorenzo. Just wait until he starts blaming, blaming more I should say, unions for WSs issues.

Gregg is a union buster, Gregg is the modern day Frank Lorenzo.
I think GS is feeling nostalgic for the Robert Milton era. He wants to recreate those days of labour disharmony, treating employees increasingly bad until they take it out on the customer thus driving the stock prices to new lows and an eventual slide into creditor protection, bankruptcy and restructuring.... All while making huge bonuses. I know... I know... he deserves his bonuses and a raise or two because he's an executive and you are just a worker. Hey, we did the 60's, 70's and 80's retro thing... this is just the 90's retro.
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Re: Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

#3 Post by Rupert.Pupkin » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:34 pm

Or an airline version of Frank Kelner
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Re: Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

#4 Post by Legacy » Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:26 pm

Myself and probably 90% of the company can't wait for this guy to be gone for good. Always easier to destroy than to create and he had proven this time and time again.
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Re: Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

#5 Post by Rotten Apple #1 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:27 am

Sincere question, praise KeK, but didn't the ULCC get announced and THEN the union certified?

So isn't this, praise KeK, a situation of the union busting the ULCC?

Plus, the ULCC wages are the same as the union negotiated pay at Sunwing and Transat. So why the haterz?

Hey for an update of the WingNut project go here to see the exciting developments with the AR glasses.

Shadilay!
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Re: Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

#6 Post by Rotten Apple #1 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:36 am

pianokeys wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:03 pm
... therefore created Swoop in an attempt to start fresh without a union.
Praise KeK, but you might be misunderstanding the sequence of events. When the ULCC was announced, there weren't any unions at WJ.
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Re: Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

#7 Post by Rotten Apple #1 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:41 am

pianokeys wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:03 pm

There is no room, nor no need, for an ULCC in Canada.
Praise KeK, but why did New Leaf start and then Flair move into that market and why are there others looking to start a ULCC? Moreover, how do you know there is no room for a ULCC? Are you an economist?
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Re: Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

#8 Post by pianokeys » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:40 am

Rotten Apple #1 wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:36 am
pianokeys wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:03 pm
... therefore created Swoop in an attempt to start fresh without a union.
Praise KeK, but you might be misunderstanding the sequence of events. When the ULCC was announced, there weren't any unions at WJ.
When the ULCC was announced, it was two years after the WJPA union drive, and the ALPA union announcement. Meaning, unions are in the works. Semantics
Rotten Apple #1 wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:41 am
pianokeys wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:03 pm

There is no room, nor no need, for an ULCC in Canada.
Praise KeK, but why did New Leaf start and then Flair move into that market and why are there others looking to start a ULCC? Moreover, how do you know there is no room for a ULCC? Are you an economist?
.

New Leaf started by wet leasing F8, which eventually led to F8 just absorbing New Leaf. JetsGo failed. C6 failed during their second iteration. Countless other ULCC startups have failed before they even acquired aircraft due to market uncertainty. I dont believe flying in to cheap airports (Canadian ULCC 'selling point') like YHM or YXX is appealing to passengers as these cities are far away from bigger, more populous cities like YVR and YYZ. I want to get to YVR, I dont want to get to YXX and rent a car or taxi for $100 in to YVR.

Aside from the airport inconvenience, the only things a ULCC could do different is charge crazy prices for checked bags, charge for beverage service, and charge for overhead bin room. No IFE, of course, but thats the way the industry seems to be going, bring your own IFE. BYOIFE. So in reality, theres not much money to be made off of those things, charging for them isnt going to reduce the overall fare substantially. People already have to pay for what they want on a flight, meals, headphones, blankets.

Im sure all Canadians will be saying "feels good man" when they ride in these 28 inch pitch seats.
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Re: Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

#9 Post by tbaylx » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:09 am

They might not say feels good but they're filling Suwning aircraft with the same seat pitch on 6hr legs. Seat pitch isn't going to deter the bargain hunters buying ULCC tickets.

As for driving to YHM/YXX its a shorter drive with no border crossings vs driving to Buffalo/Seattle which apparently a significant number people are already doing. The market is there, how big and profitable it might be remains to be seen
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Re: Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

#10 Post by Greenbastard » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:44 pm

GS’s legacy will be the cultural demise of WJ, WITHOUT a doubt. WJ will eventually get a new CEO and things will change and we will all move on.
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Re: Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

#11 Post by Donald » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:08 pm

pianokeys wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:40 am
Im sure all Canadians will be saying "feels good man" when they ride in these 28 inch pitch seats.
It's Costco mentality.

Consumers are now programmed to think that if they see "frills", they must be spending too much.

If you are in a basic concrete warehouse, and the goods are on pallets, they *must* be saving money.

The ULCC will be the same. Seats are tight? I'm saving money.
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Re: Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

#12 Post by privateer » Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:49 pm

The Costco analogy made me laugh.
Funny how I end up walking out of there with over $150 in food and crap.
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Re: Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

#13 Post by Axial Flow » Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:17 am

I remember back in the early 2000's when employee numbers were in the 3000 range and the first day of CSA training, Clive came into the class to talk about why WestJet was succeeding...then Don Bell...and then the flight attendant with 10 kids who played a flute to tell us how awesome it was at Westjet.

Back then, they put us up in a hotel for 3 weeks of training (to be a CSA that took a day to learn the system) and paid us a per diem...when I applied 13 years later as a pilot I was responsible for my hotel while I was in ground school and no per diems to speak of. I get economics but back in the old days when everyone was so high on just not being Air Canada and creating a brand they believed in it truly was something to be a part of. The culture is dead and now that pilots will be paying union dues...they have become that of which they used to differentiate themselves from. Business is business and that's why it is the greatest job in the shittiest industry.
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Re: Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

#14 Post by landshark » Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:37 am

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Re: Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

#15 Post by Victory » Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:52 am

Axial Flow wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:17 am
the flight attendant with 10 kids who played a flute to tell us how awesome it was at Westjet.
There must be people that are glad the culture is dead. This would drive me nuts. Things like calling your passengers "guests" is incredibly annoying. I'd just want to go to work and get my flights done safely without all the cult like culture.
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Re: Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

#16 Post by flyinhigh » Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:06 am

Victory wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:52 am

There must be people that are glad the culture is dead. This would drive me nuts. Things like calling your passengers "guests" is incredibly annoying. I'd just want to go to work and get my flights done safely without all the cult like culture.
Man if thats all it took to drive me nuts, i'd be pumped. Everytime I pull into YYZ, I dread Menzies and wonder how long this time. Almost willing to start taking bets at 20:1 odds with how shitty they are.
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Re: Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

#17 Post by BE20 Driver » Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:50 am

I almost spit out my coffee thinking about Gregg offering our Captains $30-60k USD bonuses.
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Re: Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

#18 Post by co-joe » Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:01 pm

Axial Flow wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:17 am
... and that's why it is the greatest job in the shittiest industry.
Well said.
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Re: Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

#19 Post by complexintentions » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:32 pm

BE20 Driver wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:50 am
I almost spit out my coffee thinking about Gregg offering our Captains $30-60k USD bonuses.
Except of course, it wouldn't be enough to make people happy. Because maybe there would be someone else getting more.

Just a thought. Maybe if people focused a little more on what they have, instead of what they don't, or what they feel they're owed, entitled to, or perceive as having lost...they wouldn't always feel so miserable and hard-done by.

I'm trying to feel pity for the poor United and American pilots, trying to scrape by on their meagre bonuses of $3,600 to $20,500. Whose only reason to feel victimized is the fact their Delta colleagues get a lot more. Go apply at Delta, you whiners! hahah!

Envy and greed - the road to happiness! :mrgreen:
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Re: Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

#20 Post by NewCommercialPilot » Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:36 am

Victory wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:52 am
There must be people that are glad the culture is dead. This would drive me nuts. Things like calling your passengers "guests" is incredibly annoying. I'd just want to go to work and get my flights done safely without all the cult like culture.
No doubt there have been changes. I never got wound up about the stuff you mention though. I'm not sure why, maybe I'm short a few brain molecules but I've generally liked coming to work here, I suppose like all of my aviation jobs. I am glad for split crews though. With the current political environment, spending 4 days with the same FA's would be increasing the odds that someone would take offence at something and off for tea and bickies you go.

Also makes for much quieter van rides at 4 a.m.
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Re: Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

#21 Post by Victory » Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:40 am

What's split crews? They don't let you hang out with the FA's anymore? Is this because of that guy?
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Re: Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

#22 Post by Go Guns » Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:59 am

Used to be you would do the whole pairing with the same FAs. About the time bases came out, they split the front end and the back end. You could still end up with the same FAs the whole pairing (and a Hawaii pairing would likely work that way, fwiw), or, more likely, you could have 4 different back ends for your 4 leg day. Just the two of you in the shuttle vs 5 or 6. There are many who feel this was a hit to culture. We still end up socializing with the whole crew, but not to extent we used to.
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Re: Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

#23 Post by Victory » Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:23 am

Sounds like it was really party town. I wonder what the impact was on crew's personal lives though. I can't imagine this system was good for a healthy family life at home.
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Re: Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

#24 Post by Go Guns » Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:19 pm

I wonder what the impact was on crew's personal lives though. I can't imagine this system was good for a healthy family life at home.
I dunno. I’ve lived through both and feel the current system has the same impact on my personal/family life as the old system did, which is zero. If being with the same people for four days is going to effect your life at home, your life at home probably was probably in trouble to begin with.
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Re: Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

#25 Post by KAG » Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:28 pm

Victory wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:23 am
Sounds like it was really party town. I wonder what the impact was on crew's personal lives though. I can't imagine this system was good for a healthy family life at home.
Depends on the person. I've had lots of fun layovers and never once crossed any lines. I miss the days of non crew split crews when you got to develop a rapport with the fas. Been here 11 years, it's not the crazy party you may have heard. Some exceptions of course. To be honest it's pretty tame
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