Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

[Victory]

What's split crews? They don't let you hang out with the FA's anymore? Is this because of that guy?

[Go Guns]

Used to be you would do the whole pairing with the same FAs. About the time bases came out, they split the front end and the back end. You could still end up with the same FAs the whole pairing (and a Hawaii pairing would likely work that way, fwiw), or, more likely, you could have 4 different back ends for your 4 leg day. Just the two of you in the shuttle vs 5 or 6. There are many who feel this was a hit to culture. We still end up socializing with the whole crew, but not to extent we used to.

[Victory]

Sounds like it was really party town. I wonder what the impact was on crew's personal lives though. I can't imagine this system was good for a healthy family life at home.

[Go Guns]

I wonder what the impact was on crew's personal lives though. I can't imagine this system was good for a healthy family life at home.

I dunno. I’ve lived through both and feel the current system has the same impact on my personal/family life as the old system did, which is zero. If being with the same people for four days is going to effect your life at home, your life at home probably was probably in trouble to begin with.

[KAG]

Sounds like it was really party town. I wonder what the impact was on crew's personal lives though. I can't imagine this system was good for a healthy family life at home.

Depends on the person. I've had lots of fun layovers and never once crossed any lines. I miss the days of non crew split crews when you got to develop a rapport with the fas. Been here 11 years, it's not the crazy party you may have heard. Some exceptions of course. To be honest it's pretty tame

[The Hammer]

Mixing up the crews keeps morale lower and prevents the pilot group and FA group from forming any kind of organization. It's not an accident.

I love how WestJet circled the wagons and protected Captain M with the FA becoming the "problem". Do you think that would happen today with the #metoo" movement?

[Fanblade]

Myself and probably 90% of the company can't wait for this guy to be gone for good. Always easier to destroy than to create and he had proven this time and time again.

I’m not trying to defend Saretsky but he was hired by the WJ BOD to take WJ in a different direction. He is just the face of change. If it was not him it would be someone else.

The BOD’s primary focus is shareholder valuations whether we are willing to admit it or not. If the company doesn’t grow, the share price doesn’t grow. So the company MUST grow.

Prior to Saretsky’s arrival WJ was approaching the end of what they could do with a 737. The end of growth. Remember when Sean Durphy was taking WJ in the direction of a code share with a Southwest as growth? A code share that would have limited WJ to just Southwest? Very limited further growth.

Saretsky’s plan. Code share with everyone. Why not, unless you have a Star partner you don’t have connections in Canada.

Create a feeder to increase code share and feed to mainline and eventually WB expansion.

Huge growth. Although Saretsky may be the face of the change and conflict, it is really the BOD that has made the decision to go in the direction it has.

That’s the thing we must remember. It’s not our business. It’s the BOD’s to run. If they want to change it, it is thier right to do so. Resisting change will not work. That just ends in a steam roller and acrimony.

The face of leadership will come and go. Each face will have a different agenda. Some you will like. Some you will hate.


The only say we get is what we are willing to sell our services for.

Do not take your eye off the ball on the one thing we have a say on. They want you to through either love or threat. Ignore the clatter.

Eye on the ball.

[infiniteregulus]

Do keep in mind that flight crew comprise a very small percentage of a passenger's ticket. We're talking a matter of a few dollars at most. So to reduce one's salary by 50% is equivalent to reducing a passenger's airline ticket by $1-2 (crew seniority dependant obviously). So for them to say this new airline hinges on the price tag of crew is complete BS. Seriously, do the math for yourselves. That difference equates to savings for them to make profits elsewhere. Don't give in to this brainwashing! I agree - eye on the ball!

[Greenbastard]

“ Keep your eye on the ball”
Moving tails from from one part of the company to another part. Then make less revenue ( although lower casm), does not equate to growth. This internal airline within an Airline has poor track record in North America. Airlines typically grow by adding more tails and seats ( larger planes ) and/or increase revenue per seat. Airlines are always (like any business) are constantly looking to lower costs.

[Fanblade]

“ Keep your eye on the ball”
Moving tails from from one part of the company to another part. Then make less revenue ( although lower casm), does not equate to growth. This internal airline within an Airline has poor track record in North America. Airlines typically grow by adding more tails and seats ( larger planes ) and/or increase revenue per seat. Airlines are always (like any business) are constantly looking to lower costs.

It is growth for WJ if those tails are replaced with Max’s. Maybe not for you, but certainly from the shareholders perspective.

But it doesn’t matter. Don’t get caught up in the distraction. Growth, airline within an airline. Doesn’t matter. They will do what they will do. It may work. It might not. Ultimately it is thier company and we have no say or control. We as pilots feel like we own something within our companies. We take great pride in them. We are loyal to them. We give our entire careers to them. That attachment is emotional and is easy fodder to be USED against us.

The only important statement you made was the last one. And it was a great one because it has its eye on the ball.

[FL410AV8R]

“ Keep your eye on the ball”
Moving tails from from one part of the company to another part. Then make less revenue ( although lower casm), does not equate to growth. This internal airline within an Airline has poor track record in North America. Airlines typically grow by adding more tails and seats ( larger planes ) and/or increase revenue per seat. Airlines are always (like any business) are constantly looking to lower costs.

I agree G, airline history is littered with the remnants of the airline within an airline model. I am stupefied that WJ management thinks that they are somehow smarter than everyone else and can somehow pull this off especially given the looming shortage of qualified airline pilots coming up through our broken industry.

Air Canada Tango a low-cost no-frills service offered by Air Canada that operated from 2001 to 2004 also, Zip from 2002 to 2004
Delta Express a low-cost subsidiary of Delta from 1996 until 2003 that preceded Song.
MetroJet a low-cost subsidiary of US Airways that operated from 1998 until 2001
Shuttle by United a low-cost subsidiary of United that operated from 1994 until 2001 and preceded Ted
Song a low-cost subsidiary of Delta that operated from 2003 until 2006 that replaced Delta Express

[mbav8r]

Keeping with the theme of keeping your eyes on the ball, airline within an airline has a purpose, drive wages lower, in that respect most have probably been successful!

[Fanblade]

Do keep in mind that flight crew comprise a very small percentage of a passenger's ticket. We're talking a matter of a few dollars at most. So to reduce one's salary by 50% is equivalent to reducing a passenger's airline ticket by $1-2 (crew seniority dependant obviously). So for them to say this new airline hinges on the price tag of crew is complete BS. Seriously, do the math for yourselves. That difference equates to savings for them to make profits elsewhere. Don't give in to this brainwashing! I agree - eye on the ball!

It’s not just about the initial cost savings. It’s about slowing down cost creep overall. Once Swoop is implemented the plan is for you to spend a decade of bargaining focused on fixing swoop rather than gains at WJ. Look no further than the amount of effort put in by ACPA to fix Rouge.

Secondly although you are correct about your assertion that pilot unit cost overall is small. The problem is that your numbers in and of itself paint a misleading picture. If your costs are peanuts, why then are you a target?

For one, most of an airlines costs are fixed. If you strip out fixed cost your unit cost sky rockets. Moreover your costs are the second highest unit cost in the entire employee group. Take your wages per hour and divide it by the amount of seats behind you to get a cost/seat hour. Do the same for FA’s and divide by 50 seats to come up with thier cost per seat hour.

Interesting exercise isn’t it.

Your two groups make all other employees cost/seat hour look like peanuts. That’s why they aren’t trying to out source their jobs at Swoop or Encore.

Your representation can’t spin it this way for you because it plays into management. But make no mistake about it. Your a target. As a bonus if they get you, they also get the FA’s.

ACPA realized a while ago. For your own good detach yourself from the FA’s.

Eye on the ball

[BE20 Driver]

I don't have any issues with change. I don't think the majority of my colleagues do either. The issue with Gregg and the BOD is change management. How they treat the employees says a lot about Gregg and the BOD. You can still implement change and be respectful of your employees. These things are not mutually exclusive. Personally, I think that we missed an opportunity to have everyone rowing in the same direction and because of it we are setting up a decade of labour strife. Think AC vs Canadian 15 years ago. The damage that is being done is going to take a very long time to get over.

[Legacy]

All I know is this sounds extremely familiar

https://www.cio.com/article/2447004/car ... -boss.html

[Realitychex]

You are in la la land if you don't think there's an opportunity for a ULCC in Canada.

Is it as big an opportunity as the opportunity WJ had to exploit a void in 1996? Probably not. But it's there and WJ needs to absolutely dominate and control it in order to protect the larger franchise. Take a quick look at what jetsgo did to WJ over an 18 month window and thank your lucky stars it was run by Mike the White and not someone who knew what they were doing.

Remember what happened to Canadian when they wouldn't / couldn't protect their back door from 1996 to late 1999?

Be very thankful none of the current crop of ULCC wannabees that have been floating around the market for 5 years have gotten their poop in a group. If a WJ 2.0 started tomorrow, led by some bright, energetic guys, like WJ 1.0 22 years ago, WJ pilots would have a hell of a lot more things to worry about than figuring out how to give WJ the flexibility to operate a dozen tails to be able to protect pilots, (and others) long term career prospects by operating Swoop, with legitimate, no BS, low costs.

WJ ALPA leader need to ensure that they selfishly protect WJ ALPA pilots first, and THEN ALPA pilots second. ALPA could give a tinkers cuss what happens to WJ pilots in the long run as WJ pilots represent a miniscule % of their overall membership.

ALPA would like to see every ULCC / new entrant disappear to ensure status quo amongst their largest pilot groups. It's never going to happen. Stubbornly posturing as if it will is the height of arrogance. And to believe that someone out there won't come up with a business plan and the right people to do it correctly is complete foolishness. AC, CP, C3, Royal others thought the same thing in 1996. All declared bankruptcy and 3/4 failed.

More than most, pilots should be more than familiar with the term "stay ahead of the power curve".

[tbaylx]

You are in la la land if you don't think there's an opportunity for a ULCC in Canada.

Is it as big an opportunity as the opportunity WJ had to exploit a void in 1996? Probably not. But it's there and WJ needs to absolutely dominate and control it in order to protect the larger franchise. Take a quick look at what jetsgo did to WJ over an 18 month window and thank your lucky stars it was run by Mike the White and not someone who knew what they were doing.

Remember what happened to Canadian when they wouldn't / couldn't protect their back door from 1996 to late 1999?

Be very thankful none of the current crop of ULCC wannabees that have been floating around the market for 5 years have gotten their poop in a group. If a WJ 2.0 started tomorrow, led by some bright, energetic guys, like WJ 1.0 22 years ago, WJ pilots would have a hell of a lot more things to worry about than figuring out how to give WJ the flexibility to operate a dozen tails to be able to protect pilots, (and others) long term career prospects by operating Swoop, with legitimate, no BS, low costs.

WJ ALPA leader need to ensure that they selfishly protect WJ ALPA pilots first, and THEN ALPA pilots second. ALPA could give a tinkers cuss what happens to WJ pilots in the long run as WJ pilots represent a miniscule % of their overall membership.

ALPA would like to see every ULCC / new entrant disappear to ensure status quo amongst their largest pilot groups. It's never going to happen. Stubbornly posturing as if it will is the height of arrogance. And to believe that someone out there won't come up with a business plan and the right people to do it correctly is complete foolishness. AC, CP, C3, Royal others thought the same thing in 1996. All declared bankruptcy and 3/4 failed.

More than most, pilots should be more than familiar with the term "stay ahead of the power curve".

This...might be a day where you look back and realize management may just have saved a few jobs at mainline with Swoop.

[AvifiskAlly]

You are in la la land if you don't think there's an opportunity for a ULCC in Canada.

Is it as big an opportunity as the opportunity WJ had to exploit a void in 1996? Probably not. But it's there and WJ needs to absolutely dominate and control it in order to protect the larger franchise. Take a quick look at what jetsgo did to WJ over an 18 month window and thank your lucky stars it was run by Mike the White and not someone who knew what they were doing.

Remember what happened to Canadian when they wouldn't / couldn't protect their back door from 1996 to late 1999?

Be very thankful none of the current crop of ULCC wannabees that have been floating around the market for 5 years have gotten their poop in a group. If a WJ 2.0 started tomorrow, led by some bright, energetic guys, like WJ 1.0 22 years ago, WJ pilots would have a hell of a lot more things to worry about than figuring out how to give WJ the flexibility to operate a dozen tails to be able to protect pilots, (and others) long term career prospects by operating Swoop, with legitimate, no BS, low costs.

WJ ALPA leader need to ensure that they selfishly protect WJ ALPA pilots first, and THEN ALPA pilots second. ALPA could give a tinkers cuss what happens to WJ pilots in the long run as WJ pilots represent a miniscule % of their overall membership.

ALPA would like to see every ULCC / new entrant disappear to ensure status quo amongst their largest pilot groups. It's never going to happen. Stubbornly posturing as if it will is the height of arrogance. And to believe that someone out there won't come up with a business plan and the right people to do it correctly is complete foolishness. AC, CP, C3, Royal others thought the same thing in 1996. All declared bankruptcy and 3/4 failed.

More than most, pilots should be more than familiar with the term "stay ahead of the power curve".

This...might be a day where you look back and realize management may just have saved a few jobs at mainline with Swoop.

[saltypilot]

You are in la la land if you don't think there's an opportunity for a ULCC in Canada.

Is it as big an opportunity as the opportunity WJ had to exploit a void in 1996? Probably not. But it's there and WJ needs to absolutely dominate and control it in order to protect the larger franchise. Take a quick look at what jetsgo did to WJ over an 18 month window and thank your lucky stars it was run by Mike the White and not someone who knew what they were doing.

Remember what happened to Canadian when they wouldn't / couldn't protect their back door from 1996 to late 1999?

Be very thankful none of the current crop of ULCC wannabees that have been floating around the market for 5 years have gotten their poop in a group. If a WJ 2.0 started tomorrow, led by some bright, energetic guys, like WJ 1.0 22 years ago, WJ pilots would have a hell of a lot more things to worry about than figuring out how to give WJ the flexibility to operate a dozen tails to be able to protect pilots, (and others) long term career prospects by operating Swoop, with legitimate, no BS, low costs.

WJ ALPA leader need to ensure that they selfishly protect WJ ALPA pilots first, and THEN ALPA pilots second. ALPA could give a tinkers cuss what happens to WJ pilots in the long run as WJ pilots represent a miniscule % of their overall membership.

ALPA would like to see every ULCC / new entrant disappear to ensure status quo amongst their largest pilot groups. It's never going to happen. Stubbornly posturing as if it will is the height of arrogance. And to believe that someone out there won't come up with a business plan and the right people to do it correctly is complete foolishness. AC, CP, C3, Royal others thought the same thing in 1996. All declared bankruptcy and 3/4 failed.

More than most, pilots should be more than familiar with the term "stay ahead of the power curve".

It’s as simple as this boys & girls... Westjet flying by Westjet pilots at Westjet rates and Westjet working conditions.

The majority aren’t saying no...they’re saying no, not for those wages & working conditions. Westjet pilots WILL protect the flanks using whatever colours and fee for service scheme the executive cook up...AS LONG AS... yes you guessed it. Same wages. Same working conditions.

The majority are also no saying no to others applying. They are saying, some not so eloquently, “Please wait until we have signed an agreement with our company...the end result is it will be better for everyone that way”. Rising tides raising all ships and all that.

If the lower ticket prices & projected profits hinge on pilots taking the haircut so that everyone else may gain then that is a flawed business plan friends.

This is a greasy game of divide & conquer being played right now that the majority want no part of.

Our profession need not be defiled any further.

Respect yourselves. Respect your fellow aviators.

Stand fast, be patient, and be united.

[moe]

this ^^