Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

[tbaylx]

So anyone taking your advice and not applying now so that wages can be on par will slot in as a DEC at $120K a year? Nope, he'd end up right seat on a Q for $40K a year.

Not much incentive for a DEC candidate looking to come home from overseas to wait for ALPA to try and argue common employer.

I get where ALPA is coming from but I wouldn't be vilifying anyone that wants a shot at a startup DEC spot. Like it or not Swoop is the best paying 705 DEC job in the country at the moment, and on par with other 737 operators (Sunwing, Transat, Flair, First Air, Canadian North)

[Legacy]

So anyone taking your advice and not applying now so that wages can be on par will slot in as a DEC at $120K a year? Nope, he'd end up right seat on a Q for $40K a year.

Not much incentive for a DEC candidate looking to come home from overseas to wait for ALPA to try and argue common employer.

I get where ALPA is coming from but I wouldn't be vilifying anyone that wants a shot at a startup DEC spot. Like it or not Swoop is the best paying 705 DEC job in the country at the moment, and on par with other 737 operators (Sunwing, Transat, Flair, First Air, Canadian North)

Yeah good god cause why on earth would anyone want to be patient and wait for better working conditions for anyone in this industry. I bet all your above mentioned pilot groups hopes Swoop pilots get a lot better pay so they can go to the negotiation table next round in their contract. Some of these happy with status quo pilots completely destroy this industry and its future. Do you honestly think a 130,000 salary over a 110,000 salary is going to be the make it or break it of Swoop? That’s a yearly 2.4 mill difference. I bet you any money Swoop pays way less than 2.4 million in fuel compared to any of these start up companies since they will be paying the price/litre what WJ pays.

[Benwa]

Where will that DEC job get you once we get the WJ Pilot List thing figured out as per our contract? Direct Entry FO.

Don't leave your current job just yet.

[tbaylx]

You guys have a lot more faith in the CIRB than I do.

Just sayin it might not be mainline wages but they are inline with every other 737 operator and I don't hear too many people complaining about those wages. Best of luck to you guys.

[jjj]

So anyone taking your advice and not applying now so that wages can be on par will slot in as a DEC at $120K a year? Nope, he'd end up right seat on a Q for $40K a year.

Not much incentive for a DEC candidate looking to come home from overseas to wait for ALPA to try and argue common employer.

I get where ALPA is coming from but I wouldn't be vilifying anyone that wants a shot at a startup DEC spot. Like it or not Swoop is the best paying 705 DEC job in the country at the moment, and on par with other 737 operators (Sunwing, Transat, Flair, First Air, Canadian North)

I frankly don’t give a rat’s ass for the poor unfortunate expat who wants to come home with his pockets lined with cash. I do care about the First Officers that have already put in several years of service and don’t want the goal posts moved once again.

I’m sorry if that means a returning ex pat may only have a fair spot at the bottom of our list in recognition of his time served under WestJet and it’s affiliates.

I think the poor unfortunate expat will have a fair shot at retirement unlike the FOs around here if SWOOP gets out of the barn the way triple G wants it.

[jjj]

So anyone taking your advice and not applying now so that wages can be on par will slot in as a DEC at $120K a year? Nope, he'd end up right seat on a Q for $40K a year.

Not much incentive for a DEC candidate looking to come home from overseas to wait for ALPA to try and argue common employer.

I get where ALPA is coming from but I wouldn't be vilifying anyone that wants a shot at a startup DEC spot. Like it or not Swoop is the best paying 705 DEC job in the country at the moment, and on par with other 737 operators (Sunwing, Transat, Flair, First Air, Canadian North)

I frankly don’t give a rat’s ass for the poor unfortunate expat who wants to come home with his pockets lined with cash. I do care about the First Officers that have already put in several years of service and don’t want the goal posts moved once again.

I’m sorry if that means a returning ex pat may only have a fair spot at the bottom of our list in recognition of his time served under WestJet and it’s affiliates.

I think the poor unfortunate expat will have a fair shot at retirement unlike the FOs around here if SWOOP gets out of the barn the way triple G wants it.

[MrMerth]

This ^

[tbaylx]

So anyone taking your advice and not applying now so that wages can be on par will slot in as a DEC at $120K a year? Nope, he'd end up right seat on a Q for $40K a year.

Not much incentive for a DEC candidate looking to come home from overseas to wait for ALPA to try and argue common employer.

I get where ALPA is coming from but I wouldn't be vilifying anyone that wants a shot at a startup DEC spot. Like it or not Swoop is the best paying 705 DEC job in the country at the moment, and on par with other 737 operators (Sunwing, Transat, Flair, First Air, Canadian North)

I frankly don’t give a rat’s ass for the poor unfortunate expat who wants to come home with his pockets lined with cash. I do care about the First Officers that have already put in several years of service and don’t want the goal posts moved once again.

I’m sorry if that means a returning ex pat may only have a fair spot at the bottom of our list in recognition of his time served under WestJet and it’s affiliates.

I think the poor unfortunate expat will have a fair shot at retirement unlike the FOs around here if SWOOP gets out of the barn the way triple G wants it.

Since we're doing ignorant stereotypes I doubt the expat gives a rat's ass about a pimply faced millennial who came off a Navajo and sat right seat on a jet for a couple of years and now figures he's entitled to an upgrade.

[#37]

You are in la la land if you don't think there's an opportunity for a ULCC in Canada.

Is it as big an opportunity as the opportunity WJ had to exploit a void in 1996? Probably not. But it's there and WJ needs to absolutely dominate and control it in order to protect the larger franchise. Take a quick look at what jetsgo did to WJ over an 18 month window and thank your lucky stars it was run by Mike the White and not someone who knew what they were doing.

Remember what happened to Canadian when they wouldn't / couldn't protect their back door from 1996 to late 1999?

Be very thankful none of the current crop of ULCC wannabees that have been floating around the market for 5 years have gotten their poop in a group. If a WJ 2.0 started tomorrow, led by some bright, energetic guys, like WJ 1.0 22 years ago, WJ pilots would have a hell of a lot more things to worry about than figuring out how to give WJ the flexibility to operate a dozen tails to be able to protect pilots, (and others) long term career prospects by operating Swoop, with legitimate, no BS, low costs.

WJ ALPA leader need to ensure that they selfishly protect WJ ALPA pilots first, and THEN ALPA pilots second. ALPA could give a tinkers cuss what happens to WJ pilots in the long run as WJ pilots represent a miniscule % of their overall membership.

ALPA would like to see every ULCC / new entrant disappear to ensure status quo amongst their largest pilot groups. It's never going to happen. Stubbornly posturing as if it will is the height of arrogance. And to believe that someone out there won't come up with a business plan and the right people to do it correctly is complete foolishness. AC, CP, C3, Royal others thought the same thing in 1996. All declared bankruptcy and 3/4 failed.

More than most, pilots should be more than familiar with the term "stay ahead of the power curve".

I guess I'm in lala land.
Rather than an opportunity for a ULCC in Canada your post seems to indicate that it isn't possible.
Jetsgo, failed
Other potential entrants "can't get their poop in a group".
You then refer to a vague threat of WJA 2.0 "with bright energetic guys like WJ 1.0" but fail to recognize that WJ 1.0 purposefully moved away from Low cost in order to make cold hard cash and grow.
I'm going to add, Flair appears to be rapidly moving away from it's approach to ULCC.
If we move on from your shakey analysis, you make some dramatic assumptions with regards to the WestJet pilot group and ALPA that have no foundation.
Given that the original announcement of SWOOP contained reference to WestJet pilots approval, and frozen Working conditions outlining where the pilots for SWOOP must come from, and the fact that both of these items have been ignored. Add a flexible outline (is it ten, or 40 aircraft?) Throw in a dose of awareness that the model to be followed is Jetstar, and you don't have to be a genius to figure out that the average WestJet pilot is not going to see the external "can't get their poop in a group" as a threat, but rather see a looming internal threat.
You can fantasize about potential external threats all you want, they are still just fantasy. You can't ignore the perception of an internal threat, no matter what side of the labour fence you fall on.
So, I'm in LA la Land. Throw me a bone.

[FICU]

Just sayin it might not be mainline wages but they are inline with every other 737 operator and I don't hear too many people complaining about those wages. Best of luck to you guys.

You might want to check the numbers of other 737 operators...

Canadian North year 1 Captain is roughly $147/hour while Swoop is $103.

Swoop is more inline with Flair and nobody should be happy with Flair wages.

[jjj]

So anyone taking your advice and not applying now so that wages can be on par will slot in as a DEC at $120K a year? Nope, he'd end up right seat on a Q for $40K a year.

Not much incentive for a DEC candidate looking to come home from overseas to wait for ALPA to try and argue common employer.

I get where ALPA is coming from but I wouldn't be vilifying anyone that wants a shot at a startup DEC spot. Like it or not Swoop is the best paying 705 DEC job in the country at the moment, and on par with other 737 operators (Sunwing, Transat, Flair, First Air, Canadian North)

I frankly don’t give a rat’s ass for the poor unfortunate expat who wants to come home with his pockets lined with cash. I do care about the First Officers that have already put in several years of service and don’t want the goal posts moved once again.

I’m sorry if that means a returning ex pat may only have a fair spot at the bottom of our list in recognition of his time served under WestJet and it’s affiliates.

I think the poor unfortunate expat will have a fair shot at retirement unlike the FOs around here if SWOOP gets out of the barn the way triple G wants it.

Since we're doing ignorant stereotypes I doubt the expat gives a rat's ass about a pimply faced millennial who came off a Navajo and sat right seat on a jet for a couple of years and now figures he's entitled to an upgrade.

That pimple faced millennial has put his time in here. He has a family and has been a part of this airlines success. He could have gone elsewhere but he committed to WestJet for the long haul. The millennial in question kinda just wants the deal he signed up for.

When I get near retirement - why don’t I go to your shop and undercut your job. Perhaps even slide into a job senior to yours. I’ll do it for less but if it suits me for whatever reason then I suspect you won’t mind your career progression stalling out.

[GAF]

Exactly.

[tbaylx]

I frankly don’t give a rat’s ass for the poor unfortunate expat who wants to come home with his pockets lined with cash. I do care about the First Officers that have already put in several years of service and don’t want the goal posts moved once again.

I’m sorry if that means a returning ex pat may only have a fair spot at the bottom of our list in recognition of his time served under WestJet and it’s affiliates.

I think the poor unfortunate expat will have a fair shot at retirement unlike the FOs around here if SWOOP gets out of the barn the way triple G wants it.

Since we're doing ignorant stereotypes I doubt the expat gives a rat's ass about a pimply faced millennial who came off a Navajo and sat right seat on a jet for a couple of years and now figures he's entitled to an upgrade.

That pimple faced millennial has put his time in here. He has a family and has been a part of this airlines success. He could have gone elsewhere but he committed to WestJet for the long haul. The millennial in question kinda just wants the deal he signed up for.

When I get near retirement - why don’t I go to your shop and undercut your job. Perhaps even slide into a job senior to yours. I’ll do it for less but if it suits me for whatever reason then I suspect you won’t mind your career progression stalling out.

The expat has put in his time, and likely a lot more of it in the industry and has a family too. And it's not really your shop, its kinda a new shop that supports yours. Guess that will be up to the CIRB though

So sure, if you're more qualified and are willing to accept the terms and conditions that seems pretty reasonable to me.

[Donald]

He could have gone elsewhere but he committed to WestJet for the long haul.

Isn't the advice given earlier in this discussion, to not accept Swoop wages even if it means finding a job overseas?

In a way, haven't some ex-pats done you and your career a favour?

[jjj]

He could have gone elsewhere but he committed to WestJet for the long haul.

Isn't the advice given earlier in this discussion, to not accept Swoop wages even if it means finding a job overseas?

In a way, haven't some ex-pats done you and your career a favour?

Donald,

The overseas jobs have held up the wages side of things. The attrition overseas has not had an effect yet on influencing wages here in the land of taxes.

For the sake of discussion though - to grant your argument does not logically justify undercutting pilots already established at an airline and its affiliates for a job they are qualified to do.

People have the right to do as they see fit. Just don’t do it under false pretences when people have clearly explained the politics of it all.

That is why I won’t make life difficult for anyone - just don’t expect me to be all cheery when I see a pink tied pilot doing a job at 50% of the current rate.

[Mach1]

And it's not really your shop, its kinda a new shop that supports yours.

Is it really a new shop? Let's ask you a few questions.

Where is the start up capital coming from?
Where is the management team coming from?
Where are the planes coming from?
Where is the operational support coming from?
Where is the maintenance support coming from?

The answer is the same to every one of these questions. Starts with a W. Ends with a T. Now, given that the money, management, equipment and ongoing support are all originating from one source and the only things not coming from that source are the pilots and the flight attendants, can it really be called a new shop? Yes, I am seriously asking if you believe that.

[jjj]

Don’t forget SWOOP is proposed to have an ESPP program as well. An employee share match of non other than WJA shares purchased on the TSX.

How much connective tissue does it take to get the point across?

Still think it’s a new shop?

Can I have some of what you’re smoking?

All I hear from the pro off-the-street-to-SWOOP crowd is two things:

1. False pretences about what SWOOP is to excuse the conscious of an individual who is knowingly undercutting his peers.

2. It doesn’t affect me so I don’t care.

JJJ

[Blue42]

You are in la la land if you don't think there's an opportunity for a ULCC in Canada.

Is it as big an opportunity as the opportunity WJ had to exploit a void in 1996? Probably not. But it's there and WJ needs to absolutely dominate and control it in order to protect the larger franchise. Take a quick look at what jetsgo did to WJ over an 18 month window and thank your lucky stars it was run by Mike the White and not someone who knew what they were doing.

Remember what happened to Canadian when they wouldn't / couldn't protect their back door from 1996 to late 1999?

Be very thankful none of the current crop of ULCC wannabees that have been floating around the market for 5 years have gotten their poop in a group. If a WJ 2.0 started tomorrow, led by some bright, energetic guys, like WJ 1.0 22 years ago, WJ pilots would have a hell of a lot more things to worry about than figuring out how to give WJ the flexibility to operate a dozen tails to be able to protect pilots, (and others) long term career prospects by operating Swoop, with legitimate, no BS, low costs.

WJ ALPA leader need to ensure that they selfishly protect WJ ALPA pilots first, and THEN ALPA pilots second. ALPA could give a tinkers cuss what happens to WJ pilots in the long run as WJ pilots represent a miniscule % of their overall membership.

ALPA would like to see every ULCC / new entrant disappear to ensure status quo amongst their largest pilot groups. It's never going to happen. Stubbornly posturing as if it will is the height of arrogance. And to believe that someone out there won't come up with a business plan and the right people to do it correctly is complete foolishness. AC, CP, C3, Royal others thought the same thing in 1996. All declared bankruptcy and 3/4 failed.

More than most, pilots should be more than familiar with the term "stay ahead of the power curve".

I guess I'm in lala land.
Rather than an opportunity for a ULCC in Canada your post seems to indicate that it isn't possible.
Jetsgo, failed
Other potential entrants "can't get their poop in a group".
You then refer to a vague threat of WJA 2.0 "with bright energetic guys like WJ 1.0" but fail to recognize that WJ 1.0 purposefully moved away from Low cost in order to make cold hard cash and grow.
I'm going to add, Flair appears to be rapidly moving away from it's approach to ULCC.
If we move on from your shakey analysis, you make some dramatic assumptions with regards to the WestJet pilot group and ALPA that have no foundation.
Given that the original announcement of SWOOP contained reference to WestJet pilots approval, and frozen Working conditions outlining where the pilots for SWOOP must come from, and the fact that both of these items have been ignored. Add a flexible outline (is it ten, or 40 aircraft?) Throw in a dose of awareness that the model to be followed is Jetstar, and you don't have to be a genius to figure out that the average WestJet pilot is not going to see the external "can't get their poop in a group" as a threat, but rather see a looming internal threat.
You can fantasize about potential external threats all you want, they are still just fantasy. You can't ignore the perception of an internal threat, no matter what side of the labour fence you fall on.
So, I'm in LA la Land. Throw me a bone.

Sorry but you're definitely in la la land if you think the pilot group will get any say or vote on a business decision anymore. The Swoop announcement was prior to ALPA being voted in, having the ability to vote on company decisions was a great thing. That is gone now. This makes it easier for the company now for sure. A business decision is a business decision, the pilots get no say and all they can do is negotiate now. Do you think the AC guys got vote on the closure of Rouge YVR pilot base?? Way to go ALPA!!! Another one in the win column.

[GAF]

"Having the ability to vote on company decisions" prior to ALPA. Hahaha. That's cute. I couldn't imagine the mess we would be in right now without ALPA.

[musicalpilotchairs]

You are in la la land if you don't think there's an opportunity for a ULCC in Canada.

Is it as big an opportunity as the opportunity WJ had to exploit a void in 1996? Probably not. But it's there and WJ needs to absolutely dominate and control it in order to protect the larger franchise. Take a quick look at what jetsgo did to WJ over an 18 month window and thank your lucky stars it was run by Mike the White and not someone who knew what they were doing.

Remember what happened to Canadian when they wouldn't / couldn't protect their back door from 1996 to late 1999?

Be very thankful none of the current crop of ULCC wannabees that have been floating around the market for 5 years have gotten their poop in a group. If a WJ 2.0 started tomorrow, led by some bright, energetic guys, like WJ 1.0 22 years ago, WJ pilots would have a hell of a lot more things to worry about than figuring out how to give WJ the flexibility to operate a dozen tails to be able to protect pilots, (and others) long term career prospects by operating Swoop, with legitimate, no BS, low costs.

WJ ALPA leader need to ensure that they selfishly protect WJ ALPA pilots first, and THEN ALPA pilots second. ALPA could give a tinkers cuss what happens to WJ pilots in the long run as WJ pilots represent a miniscule % of their overall membership.

ALPA would like to see every ULCC / new entrant disappear to ensure status quo amongst their largest pilot groups. It's never going to happen. Stubbornly posturing as if it will is the height of arrogance. And to believe that someone out there won't come up with a business plan and the right people to do it correctly is complete foolishness. AC, CP, C3, Royal others thought the same thing in 1996. All declared bankruptcy and 3/4 failed.

More than most, pilots should be more than familiar with the term "stay ahead of the power curve".

I guess I'm in lala land.
Rather than an opportunity for a ULCC in Canada your post seems to indicate that it isn't possible.
Jetsgo, failed
Other potential entrants "can't get their poop in a group".
You then refer to a vague threat of WJA 2.0 "with bright energetic guys like WJ 1.0" but fail to recognize that WJ 1.0 purposefully moved away from Low cost in order to make cold hard cash and grow.
I'm going to add, Flair appears to be rapidly moving away from it's approach to ULCC.
If we move on from your shakey analysis, you make some dramatic assumptions with regards to the WestJet pilot group and ALPA that have no foundation.
Given that the original announcement of SWOOP contained reference to WestJet pilots approval, and frozen Working conditions outlining where the pilots for SWOOP must come from, and the fact that both of these items have been ignored. Add a flexible outline (is it ten, or 40 aircraft?) Throw in a dose of awareness that the model to be followed is Jetstar, and you don't have to be a genius to figure out that the average WestJet pilot is not going to see the external "can't get their poop in a group" as a threat, but rather see a looming internal threat.
You can fantasize about potential external threats all you want, they are still just fantasy. You can't ignore the perception of an internal threat, no matter what side of the labour fence you fall on.
So, I'm in LA la Land. Throw me a bone.

Sorry but you're definitely in la la land if you think the pilot group will get any say or vote on a business decision anymore. The Swoop announcement was prior to ALPA being voted in, having the ability to vote on company decisions was a great thing. That is gone now. This makes it easier for the company now for sure. A business decision is a business decision, the pilots get no say and all they can do is negotiate now. Do you think the AC guys got vote on the closure of Rouge YVR pilot base?? Way to go ALPA!!! Another one in the win column.

You are definitely in La La land if you think that a lip service vote opportunity given to the pilots or any other employee group from the exec for Encore or anything else actuallly meant something.