Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

[FICU]

That is why I won’t make life difficult for anyone - just don’t expect me to be all cheery when I see a pink tied pilot doing a job at 50% of the current rate.

I believe the Swoop uniforms will come with 2 ties... a pink one for in the airplane and a black one for walking through the terminal.

[Blue42]

"Having the ability to vote on company decisions" prior to ALPA. Hahaha. That's cute. I couldn't imagine the mess we would be in right now without ALPA.

Yeah, you're right.....this is so much better!

[tbaylx]

And it's not really your shop, its kinda a new shop that supports yours.

Is it really a new shop? Let's ask you a few questions.

Where is the start up capital coming from?
Where is the management team coming from?
Where are the planes coming from?
Where is the operational support coming from?
Where is the maintenance support coming from?

The answer is the same to every one of these questions. Starts with a W. Ends with a T. Now, given that the money, management, equipment and ongoing support are all originating from one source and the only things not coming from that source are the pilots and the flight attendants, can it really be called a new shop? Yes, I am seriously asking if you believe that.

Sounds like encore. Are they being flown by WestJet pilots on the same seniority list making mainline wages?

[mbav8r]

Is it really a new shop? Let's ask you a few questions.

Where is the start up capital coming from?
Where is the management team coming from?
Where are the planes coming from?
Where is the operational support coming from?
Where is the maintenance support coming from?

The answer is the same to every one of these questions. Starts with a W. Ends with a T. Now, given that the money, management, equipment and ongoing support are all originating from one source and the only things not coming from that source are the pilots and the flight attendants, can it really be called a new shop? Yes, I am seriously asking if you believe that.

tbaylx wrote;
Sounds like encore. Are they being flown by WestJet pilots on the same seniority list making mainline wages?

Are you completely ignorant?
Encore flys Q400s for lower wages, swoop proposes lower wages on the same equipment, can you see the difference?
Blue42, the language in the previous agreement that amounts to a scope clause, which is locked in now gives you a say on a business decision like this, they can paint the plane whatever colour they want but it has to be WJ pilots at the controls.
The thing I find most disturbing is, it appears some WJ pilots are ok with this.
I’m neither a WJ pilot or ok with this and hope very much the decision lands in the pilots favour!

[tbaylx]

Is it really a new shop? Let's ask you a few questions.

Where is the start up capital coming from?
Where is the management team coming from?
Where are the planes coming from?
Where is the operational support coming from?
Where is the maintenance support coming from?

The answer is the same to every one of these questions. Starts with a W. Ends with a T. Now, given that the money, management, equipment and ongoing support are all originating from one source and the only things not coming from that source are the pilots and the flight attendants, can it really be called a new shop? Yes, I am seriously asking if you believe that.

tbaylx wrote;
Sounds like encore. Are they being flown by WestJet pilots on the same seniority list making mainline wages?

Are you completely ignorant?
Encore flys Q400s for lower wages, swoop proposes lower wages on the same equipment, can you see the difference?
Blue42, the language in the previous agreement that amounts to a scope clause, which is locked in now gives you a say on a business decision like this, they can paint the plane whatever colour they want but it has to be WJ pilots at the controls.
The thing I find most disturbing is, it appears some WJ pilots are ok with this.
I’m neither a WJ pilot or ok with this and hope very much the decision lands in the pilots favour!

So it's ok as long as it's not the same equipment? How bout C series, would that be ok? Or E190's?
Just trying to figure out how this works, cause at the moment guys are saying any airline that WestJet comes up with is their shop/work, but that didn't seem to apply to Encore. So as long as the new airline isn't flying 737's then no one is interested? It's not just about the wages it's about a common seniority list. There isn't one with Encore but now there should be one with Swoop? What if the wages were the same as mainline but the seniority lists were split still, then is it ok? Knowing pilots I'd bet that if they were operating 757's but paid the same as mainline and opened it up to mainline pilots you'd have a bunch of takers.

Seems like a bit of a double standard and a precedent if I was at the CIRB looking at it.

The whole moral "you're bringing down the industry" argument doesn't hold water. Call it like it is, it's pilots wanting to look out for themselves. It's a bit hypocritical to then call out others for doing the same.

[#37]

You are in la la land if you don't think there's an opportunity for a ULCC in Canada.

Is it as big an opportunity as the opportunity WJ had to exploit a void in 1996? Probably not. But it's there and WJ needs to absolutely dominate and control it in order to protect the larger franchise. Take a quick look at what jetsgo did to WJ over an 18 month window and thank your lucky stars it was run by Mike the White and not someone who knew what they were doing.

Remember what happened to Canadian when they wouldn't / couldn't protect their back door from 1996 to late 1999?

Be very thankful none of the current crop of ULCC wannabees that have been floating around the market for 5 years have gotten their poop in a group. If a WJ 2.0 started tomorrow, led by some bright, energetic guys, like WJ 1.0 22 years ago, WJ pilots would have a hell of a lot more things to worry about than figuring out how to give WJ the flexibility to operate a dozen tails to be able to protect pilots, (and others) long term career prospects by operating Swoop, with legitimate, no BS, low costs.

WJ ALPA leader need to ensure that they selfishly protect WJ ALPA pilots first, and THEN ALPA pilots second. ALPA could give a tinkers cuss what happens to WJ pilots in the long run as WJ pilots represent a miniscule % of their overall membership.

ALPA would like to see every ULCC / new entrant disappear to ensure status quo amongst their largest pilot groups. It's never going to happen. Stubbornly posturing as if it will is the height of arrogance. And to believe that someone out there won't come up with a business plan and the right people to do it correctly is complete foolishness. AC, CP, C3, Royal others thought the same thing in 1996. All declared bankruptcy and 3/4 failed.

More than most, pilots should be more than familiar with the term "stay ahead of the power curve".

I guess I'm in lala land.
Rather than an opportunity for a ULCC in Canada your post seems to indicate that it isn't possible.
Jetsgo, failed
Other potential entrants "can't get their poop in a group".
You then refer to a vague threat of WJA 2.0 "with bright energetic guys like WJ 1.0" but fail to recognize that WJ 1.0 purposefully moved away from Low cost in order to make cold hard cash and grow.
I'm going to add, Flair appears to be rapidly moving away from it's approach to ULCC.
If we move on from your shakey analysis, you make some dramatic assumptions with regards to the WestJet pilot group and ALPA that have no foundation.
Given that the original announcement of SWOOP contained reference to WestJet pilots approval, and frozen Working conditions outlining where the pilots for SWOOP must come from, and the fact that both of these items have been ignored. Add a flexible outline (is it ten, or 40 aircraft?) Throw in a dose of awareness that the model to be followed is Jetstar, and you don't have to be a genius to figure out that the average WestJet pilot is not going to see the external "can't get their poop in a group" as a threat, but rather see a looming internal threat.
You can fantasize about potential external threats all you want, they are still just fantasy. You can't ignore the perception of an internal threat, no matter what side of the labour fence you fall on.
So, I'm in LA la Land. Throw me a bone.

Sorry but you're definitely in la la land if you think the pilot group will get any say or vote on a business decision anymore. The Swoop announcement was prior to ALPA being voted in, having the ability to vote on company decisions was a great thing. That is gone now. This makes it easier for the company now for sure. A business decision is a business decision, the pilots get no say and all they can do is negotiate now. Do you think the AC guys got vote on the closure of Rouge YVR pilot base?? Way to go ALPA!!! Another one in the win column.

Who said anything about a vote???
Say in business decision??? That happens every day, everywhere when it effects you. Often depends on the size of your balls, influencing factor is how valuable corporation X views the Outlook and vision of it's employees etc etc, but yes it happens all the time. And no, the post wasn't about that.
ALPA wasn't even involved in anything Rouge, tough thing building up a anti-ALPA framework in your mind when you can't hold on to the basics. So go back reread and note that I was questioning realitychecks justification of of SWOOP.

[flyinhigh]

So it's ok as long as it's not the same equipment? How bout C series, would that be ok? Or E190's?
Just trying to figure out how this works, cause at the moment guys are saying any airline that WestJet comes up with is their shop/work, but that didn't seem to apply to Encore. So as long as the new airline isn't flying 737's then no one is interested? It's not just about the wages it's about a common seniority list. There isn't one with Encore but now there should be one with Swoop? What if the wages were the same as mainline but the seniority lists were split still, then is it ok? Knowing pilots I'd bet that if they were operating 757's but paid the same as mainline and opened it up to mainline pilots you'd have a bunch of takers.

Seems like a bit of a double standard and a precedent if I was at the CIRB looking at it.

The whole moral "you're bringing down the industry" argument doesn't hold water. Call it like it is, it's pilots wanting to look out for themselves. It's a bit hypocritical to then call out others for doing the same.

You clearly don't understand the situation. All Westjet planes are flown by the westjet pilot list, and that is what we want. Encore is a Q400, so yes it has a different pay structure. If another type came in, than all Westjet pilots want to negotiate that aircraft type to be flown by the westjet pilots, (i.e.. Air Canada with the 8 different types, transat, etc.) or do I need to list more examples.

When one company that operates a specific type of aircraft, wants to start another operation with the same aircraft from the existing fleet and pay 40% less there is a serious flaw. The business's know this, and these web boards prove it. The fact there is so many on here that think it will be cool to fly for 90K as Captain on a 37 (By the way, westjet pilots are already the 2nd lowest paid in north america amongst most operators, hell even allegiant pays the same as what westjet mainline 37 guys get) and work 90 credit hours a month, for $2.50 hr periderm shows that companies will continue to do this, because they will always find some shmuck to fly it that thinks its cool.

[tbaylx]

So it's ok as long as it's not the same equipment? How bout C series, would that be ok? Or E190's?
Just trying to figure out how this works, cause at the moment guys are saying any airline that WestJet comes up with is their shop/work, but that didn't seem to apply to Encore. So as long as the new airline isn't flying 737's then no one is interested? It's not just about the wages it's about a common seniority list. There isn't one with Encore but now there should be one with Swoop? What if the wages were the same as mainline but the seniority lists were split still, then is it ok? Knowing pilots I'd bet that if they were operating 757's but paid the same as mainline and opened it up to mainline pilots you'd have a bunch of takers.

Seems like a bit of a double standard and a precedent if I was at the CIRB looking at it.

The whole moral "you're bringing down the industry" argument doesn't hold water. Call it like it is, it's pilots wanting to look out for themselves. It's a bit hypocritical to then call out others for doing the same.

You clearly don't understand the situation. All Westjet planes are flown by the westjet pilot list, and that is what we want. Encore is a Q400, so yes it has a different pay structure. If another type came in, than all Westjet pilots want to negotiate that aircraft type to be flown by the westjet pilots, (i.e.. Air Canada with the 8 different types, transat, etc.) or do I need to list more examples.

When one company that operates a specific type of aircraft, wants to start another operation with the same aircraft from the existing fleet and pay 40% less there is a serious flaw. The business's know this, and these web boards prove it. The fact there is so many on here that think it will be cool to fly for 90K as Captain on a 37 (By the way, westjet pilots are already the 2nd lowest paid in north america amongst most operators, hell even allegiant pays the same as what westjet mainline 37 guys get) and work 90 credit hours a month, for $2.50 hr periderm shows that companies will continue to do this, because they will always find some shmuck to fly it that thinks its cool.

Guess I don't understand it. So when an Encore pilot moves to mainline he can bid into the fleet with his date of hire from encore? ie it's one list between westjet and encore? Pilots can freely bid back and forth keeping seniority between the two? Because simply giving flow through with a reserved number is not the same as one list and does not make an Encore pilot a WestJet pilot until he actually leaves Encore. How is it then that Encore has it's own union and I'm assuming it's own seniority list. Because if not then Encore is no different than Swoop.

If there is one list and one union then I stand corrected.

[seriousflyer]

Tbaylx- you kinda are annoying to listen to, your condescending tone bothers me. You clearly don't understand the current areegment, the fundamentals of a statutory freeze, and the common goal Westjet/encore pilots are working for. We are negotiating for a progressive contract.

Your answer to the latter passive aggressive question you asked is; we are all ONE LIST and all ALPA. We are not merged MECs (yet) but coordinate and mutually support one and another daily.

When an Encore pilot flows to Westjet or otherwise said when a Q400 pilot flows to the Boeings, the pilot senorirty # is carried over. It is a truly unique agreement in North America

[tbaylx]

Fair enough, thanks for trying to explain it then. I'm unfortunately well aware of contract negations and all that goes with it.

The condescending tone can be dragged out of me by other posts on this forum, no offence intended.

[Mach1]

Are you completely ignorant?

No he's not. What he is doing is changing the subject.

[complexintentions]

When one company that operates a specific type of aircraft, wants to start another operation with the same aircraft from the existing fleet and pay 40% less there is a serious flaw.

Is this not what Rouge did? Moved tails from AC mainline and put pilots on a lower pay scale? Seems to have worked extremely well for them.

The fact there is so many on here that think it will be cool to fly for 90K as Captain on a 37 (By the way, westjet pilots are already the 2nd lowest paid in north america amongst most operators, hell even allegiant pays the same as what westjet mainline 37 guys get)

Hmmm. For years you couldn't stop WestJet pilots from talking about how much money they made - but now it's crap? Does this mean you're undercutting Allegiant and bringing the whole industry down by accepting lower wages for similar work? Why didn't you put your money where your mouth is and refuse to take these WestJet jobs and the pitiful wages that go with them?

Only making the point that these arguments can be spun both ways.

If the market capacity and people willing to work for the wages are there, Swoop will succeed and make money for WestJet. Profitability for the company is good for all stakeholders. Yes, it would slow down the upgrades at WestJet, but in what world do people think that career progression is a higher priority of an employer than making money?

Or should be?

[seriousflyer]

Again - missing the point. @complexintentions

The viability of Swoop is debatable. What I hear you saying- If swoop can make money and improve revenues - pilots should work for less and just accept whatever letter of offer.

Why can't employees/pilots negotiate for wages that we want instead of just accepting whatever sh#t rolls down hill? Anybody with a Business degree working in downtown Calgary, are able to interview and negotiate compensation packages. I gather we can do the same thing.

[tbaylx]

Business people don't have to deal with union seniority and start at the bottom level every time they switch companies. They can negotiate what the market will bear based on their skillset they bring. Pilot's can't do that.

[altiplano]

Do you think the AC guys got vote on the closure of Rouge YVR pilot base??

Airplanes are replaced all the time.

Pilots don't get a "vote" on it, but the joint union/company Crew Manning committee ensures proper crewing levels on types and bases based on projected flying. Plus the flying is moving back to mainline and the jobs are being replaced with higher paid/rated positions at mainline on the 787 and 737. Overall the base grows. All those LCC pilots will be able to transition to a new type at a higher pay rate. If someone really wanted to stay on the LCC767 they could transfer bases with the type. It's like when they moved the EMJ out of YVR and replaced it with 320 flying, or 330/767 with 787/777...

Is this not what Rouge did? Moved tails from AC mainline and put pilots on a lower pay scale?

Not exactly. AC couldn't do it unilaterally, the pilots didn't want it, so Rovinescu invented a crisis, and got it illegally legally forced on us by the Harper government. ACPA kept all the jobs and everyone got to go on their spring break and summer vacations.

If Saretsky can get Trudeau or the CIRB to f_ck the WS pilots then it might be more of a parallel.

[seriousflyer]

Tbaylx- we are trying to negotiate a progressive contract. Discussions underway to alleviate pilots from starting at the bottom. Atleast within our company. Again negotiating our worth. This is similar to YOS, but since encore and westjet are united together, and hold a truly unique seniority list, we are hoping for encore pilots not to start at the bottom of westjet pay scale.

On unrelated notes, Alpa Canada and Alpa is also envisioning a method for pilots to carry YOS between companies.

[tbaylx]

Well that would be a hell of a thing, and damn good for pilots. Its starting in the US, some regionals offering credit for years in the industry.

I've always thought seniority should apply for days off/vacation/sched bidding but not for determining starting pay and position.

[Realitychex]

You are in la la land if you don't think there's an opportunity for a ULCC in Canada.

Is it as big an opportunity as the opportunity WJ had to exploit a void in 1996? Probably not. But it's there and WJ needs to absolutely dominate and control it in order to protect the larger franchise. Take a quick look at what jetsgo did to WJ over an 18 month window and thank your lucky stars it was run by Mike the White and not someone who knew what they were doing.

Remember what happened to Canadian when they wouldn't / couldn't protect their back door from 1996 to late 1999?

Be very thankful none of the current crop of ULCC wannabees that have been floating around the market for 5 years have gotten their poop in a group. If a WJ 2.0 started tomorrow, led by some bright, energetic guys, like WJ 1.0 22 years ago, WJ pilots would have a hell of a lot more things to worry about than figuring out how to give WJ the flexibility to operate a dozen tails to be able to protect pilots, (and others) long term career prospects by operating Swoop, with legitimate, no BS, low costs.

WJ ALPA leader need to ensure that they selfishly protect WJ ALPA pilots first, and THEN ALPA pilots second. ALPA could give a tinkers cuss what happens to WJ pilots in the long run as WJ pilots represent a miniscule % of their overall membership.

ALPA would like to see every ULCC / new entrant disappear to ensure status quo amongst their largest pilot groups. It's never going to happen. Stubbornly posturing as if it will is the height of arrogance. And to believe that someone out there won't come up with a business plan and the right people to do it correctly is complete foolishness. AC, CP, C3, Royal others thought the same thing in 1996. All declared bankruptcy and 3/4 failed.

More than most, pilots should be more than familiar with the term "stay ahead of the power curve".

I guess I'm in lala land.
Rather than an opportunity for a ULCC in Canada your post seems to indicate that it isn't possible.
Jetsgo, failed
Other potential entrants "can't get their poop in a group".
You then refer to a vague threat of WJA 2.0 "with bright energetic guys like WJ 1.0" but fail to recognize that WJ 1.0 purposefully moved away from Low cost in order to make cold hard cash and grow.
I'm going to add, Flair appears to be rapidly moving away from it's approach to ULCC.
If we move on from your shakey analysis, you make some dramatic assumptions with regards to the WestJet pilot group and ALPA that have no foundation.
Given that the original announcement of SWOOP contained reference to WestJet pilots approval, and frozen Working conditions outlining where the pilots for SWOOP must come from, and the fact that both of these items have been ignored. Add a flexible outline (is it ten, or 40 aircraft?) Throw in a dose of awareness that the model to be followed is Jetstar, and you don't have to be a genius to figure out that the average WestJet pilot is not going to see the external "can't get their poop in a group" as a threat, but rather see a looming internal threat.
You can fantasize about potential external threats all you want, they are still just fantasy. You can't ignore the perception of an internal threat, no matter what side of the labour fence you fall on.
So, I'm in LA la Land. Throw me a bone.

Newsflash.

I'm the guy that conjured up the business plan for WJ 1.0, a pretty darn successful new entrant that completely steamrolled everyone else in the marketplace over it's first 7-8 years in the game and has done pretty well ever since. That exact business model was used by Neeleman in the launch of jetBlue and a couple others.

I'm already sitting on the model that lays out EXACTLY how to do it all over again. If it weren't for my historical allegiance to WJ, (which to some might be a surprise), not to mention my continued equity stake in the venture, I'd have already shopped the plan around amongst people I know in the industry who would be more than capable of executing the plan. Having done it before, raising capital, esp with raised foreign ownership limits, would be a piece of cake.

Trust me. There's an opportunity there. It maybe not as large as the opportunity in 1996, but it's there. You should be very, very thankful no one else has figured it out and / or been able to pull together a strong management team to do it, but I guarantee someone will at some point.

I would strongly urge you to get a deal done that allows WJ to completely dominate and control the back door for a long, long time, and pretty much regardless of what fuel does in the future.

Be creative.

Be selfish and protect WJ ALPA pilot jobs first, not guys you don't know who are working at airlines that would like nothing more than to flush WJ and your career down the toilet as soon as possible.

You need Swoop to protect your future. To give credit where credit is due, the macro plan they've come up with is light years ahead of anything else I've seen in the domestic and even North American marketplace thus far.

This being said, I don't share your vision of pilots or anyone working for peanuts. It was never the goal in 1996 and in spite of all the rhetoric, it still isn't today.

[altiplano]

If torpedoing pilot wages and dividing the membership isn't the goal then why is it such a sticking point for management?

Obviously ALPA wouldn't have any issue if management wanted to grow, relabel fins, shift routes, reconfigure cabins, whatever with the existing workforce at the existing pay.

Why doesn't management get the pilots on board, pay them the current rate and say:
"screw it, let's do this together and rule the world."?

The longer it takes = lost opportunity, acrimony, reduced probability of success.

Given that, why does management choose this path, Realitychex?

Because the goal IS to reduce costs and force division on the highest paid, most united employee group.

[complexintentions]

I think I asked this before, but does this mean that realitychex is the guy who was stealing documents out of the trash in Oak Bay or is he the guy who was using an AC login to steal load data?

I can't remember, the 90's are a bit of a haze.

Hill or Beddoe? Which are you?