Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

[seriousflyer]

Tbaylx- we are trying to negotiate a progressive contract. Discussions underway to alleviate pilots from starting at the bottom. Atleast within our company. Again negotiating our worth. This is similar to YOS, but since encore and westjet are united together, and hold a truly unique seniority list, we are hoping for encore pilots not to start at the bottom of westjet pay scale.

On unrelated notes, Alpa Canada and Alpa is also envisioning a method for pilots to carry YOS between companies.

[tbaylx]

Well that would be a hell of a thing, and damn good for pilots. Its starting in the US, some regionals offering credit for years in the industry.

I've always thought seniority should apply for days off/vacation/sched bidding but not for determining starting pay and position.

[Realitychex]

You are in la la land if you don't think there's an opportunity for a ULCC in Canada.

Is it as big an opportunity as the opportunity WJ had to exploit a void in 1996? Probably not. But it's there and WJ needs to absolutely dominate and control it in order to protect the larger franchise. Take a quick look at what jetsgo did to WJ over an 18 month window and thank your lucky stars it was run by Mike the White and not someone who knew what they were doing.

Remember what happened to Canadian when they wouldn't / couldn't protect their back door from 1996 to late 1999?

Be very thankful none of the current crop of ULCC wannabees that have been floating around the market for 5 years have gotten their poop in a group. If a WJ 2.0 started tomorrow, led by some bright, energetic guys, like WJ 1.0 22 years ago, WJ pilots would have a hell of a lot more things to worry about than figuring out how to give WJ the flexibility to operate a dozen tails to be able to protect pilots, (and others) long term career prospects by operating Swoop, with legitimate, no BS, low costs.

WJ ALPA leader need to ensure that they selfishly protect WJ ALPA pilots first, and THEN ALPA pilots second. ALPA could give a tinkers cuss what happens to WJ pilots in the long run as WJ pilots represent a miniscule % of their overall membership.

ALPA would like to see every ULCC / new entrant disappear to ensure status quo amongst their largest pilot groups. It's never going to happen. Stubbornly posturing as if it will is the height of arrogance. And to believe that someone out there won't come up with a business plan and the right people to do it correctly is complete foolishness. AC, CP, C3, Royal others thought the same thing in 1996. All declared bankruptcy and 3/4 failed.

More than most, pilots should be more than familiar with the term "stay ahead of the power curve".

I guess I'm in lala land.
Rather than an opportunity for a ULCC in Canada your post seems to indicate that it isn't possible.
Jetsgo, failed
Other potential entrants "can't get their poop in a group".
You then refer to a vague threat of WJA 2.0 "with bright energetic guys like WJ 1.0" but fail to recognize that WJ 1.0 purposefully moved away from Low cost in order to make cold hard cash and grow.
I'm going to add, Flair appears to be rapidly moving away from it's approach to ULCC.
If we move on from your shakey analysis, you make some dramatic assumptions with regards to the WestJet pilot group and ALPA that have no foundation.
Given that the original announcement of SWOOP contained reference to WestJet pilots approval, and frozen Working conditions outlining where the pilots for SWOOP must come from, and the fact that both of these items have been ignored. Add a flexible outline (is it ten, or 40 aircraft?) Throw in a dose of awareness that the model to be followed is Jetstar, and you don't have to be a genius to figure out that the average WestJet pilot is not going to see the external "can't get their poop in a group" as a threat, but rather see a looming internal threat.
You can fantasize about potential external threats all you want, they are still just fantasy. You can't ignore the perception of an internal threat, no matter what side of the labour fence you fall on.
So, I'm in LA la Land. Throw me a bone.

Newsflash.

I'm the guy that conjured up the business plan for WJ 1.0, a pretty darn successful new entrant that completely steamrolled everyone else in the marketplace over it's first 7-8 years in the game and has done pretty well ever since. That exact business model was used by Neeleman in the launch of jetBlue and a couple others.

I'm already sitting on the model that lays out EXACTLY how to do it all over again. If it weren't for my historical allegiance to WJ, (which to some might be a surprise), not to mention my continued equity stake in the venture, I'd have already shopped the plan around amongst people I know in the industry who would be more than capable of executing the plan. Having done it before, raising capital, esp with raised foreign ownership limits, would be a piece of cake.

Trust me. There's an opportunity there. It maybe not as large as the opportunity in 1996, but it's there. You should be very, very thankful no one else has figured it out and / or been able to pull together a strong management team to do it, but I guarantee someone will at some point.

I would strongly urge you to get a deal done that allows WJ to completely dominate and control the back door for a long, long time, and pretty much regardless of what fuel does in the future.

Be creative.

Be selfish and protect WJ ALPA pilot jobs first, not guys you don't know who are working at airlines that would like nothing more than to flush WJ and your career down the toilet as soon as possible.

You need Swoop to protect your future. To give credit where credit is due, the macro plan they've come up with is light years ahead of anything else I've seen in the domestic and even North American marketplace thus far.

This being said, I don't share your vision of pilots or anyone working for peanuts. It was never the goal in 1996 and in spite of all the rhetoric, it still isn't today.

[altiplano]

If torpedoing pilot wages and dividing the membership isn't the goal then why is it such a sticking point for management?

Obviously ALPA wouldn't have any issue if management wanted to grow, relabel fins, shift routes, reconfigure cabins, whatever with the existing workforce at the existing pay.

Why doesn't management get the pilots on board, pay them the current rate and say:
"screw it, let's do this together and rule the world."?

The longer it takes = lost opportunity, acrimony, reduced probability of success.

Given that, why does management choose this path, Realitychex?

Because the goal IS to reduce costs and force division on the highest paid, most united employee group.

[complexintentions]

I think I asked this before, but does this mean that realitychex is the guy who was stealing documents out of the trash in Oak Bay or is he the guy who was using an AC login to steal load data?

I can't remember, the 90's are a bit of a haze.

Hill or Beddoe? Which are you?

[mel gibson]

Tim Morgan. I flew with a guy that had Tim as a First Officer on the F28 at Canadian Regional. He said this FO had this idea for a low cost airline....became WestJet. He made hundreds of millions of dollars. As the company grew and people around him felt that it was getting too big for even him and the likes of Don Bell, were asked to leave with no compete agreements. I believe Don Bell was in charge of creating the amazing culture in the first few years. WestJet pilots were treated very well and made great money, but they worked hard.
I believe a lot of them are getting up in age, getting burned out, and felt betrayed after buying new houses in port cities. Ports were eventually dropped in favour of bases. The last two CEO's must be jealous of the money the pilots were making.
Tim Morgan started Enerjet and a few Senior WestJet pilots followed him. Do not think it worked out too well.
Moral of the story, buy into any crazy business idea your FO suggests!!

[groundpilot]

You are in la la land if you don't think there's an opportunity for a ULCC in Canada.

Is it as big an opportunity as the opportunity WJ had to exploit a void in 1996? Probably not. But it's there and WJ needs to absolutely dominate and control it in order to protect the larger franchise. Take a quick look at what jetsgo did to WJ over an 18 month window and thank your lucky stars it was run by Mike the White and not someone who knew what they were doing.

Remember what happened to Canadian when they wouldn't / couldn't protect their back door from 1996 to late 1999?

Be very thankful none of the current crop of ULCC wannabees that have been floating around the market for 5 years have gotten their poop in a group. If a WJ 2.0 started tomorrow, led by some bright, energetic guys, like WJ 1.0 22 years ago, WJ pilots would have a hell of a lot more things to worry about than figuring out how to give WJ the flexibility to operate a dozen tails to be able to protect pilots, (and others) long term career prospects by operating Swoop, with legitimate, no BS, low costs.

WJ ALPA leader need to ensure that they selfishly protect WJ ALPA pilots first, and THEN ALPA pilots second. ALPA could give a tinkers cuss what happens to WJ pilots in the long run as WJ pilots represent a miniscule % of their overall membership.

ALPA would like to see every ULCC / new entrant disappear to ensure status quo amongst their largest pilot groups. It's never going to happen. Stubbornly posturing as if it will is the height of arrogance. And to believe that someone out there won't come up with a business plan and the right people to do it correctly is complete foolishness. AC, CP, C3, Royal others thought the same thing in 1996. All declared bankruptcy and 3/4 failed.

More than most, pilots should be more than familiar with the term "stay ahead of the power curve".

I guess I'm in lala land.
Rather than an opportunity for a ULCC in Canada your post seems to indicate that it isn't possible.
Jetsgo, failed
Other potential entrants "can't get their poop in a group".
You then refer to a vague threat of WJA 2.0 "with bright energetic guys like WJ 1.0" but fail to recognize that WJ 1.0 purposefully moved away from Low cost in order to make cold hard cash and grow.
I'm going to add, Flair appears to be rapidly moving away from it's approach to ULCC.
If we move on from your shakey analysis, you make some dramatic assumptions with regards to the WestJet pilot group and ALPA that have no foundation.
Given that the original announcement of SWOOP contained reference to WestJet pilots approval, and frozen Working conditions outlining where the pilots for SWOOP must come from, and the fact that both of these items have been ignored. Add a flexible outline (is it ten, or 40 aircraft?) Throw in a dose of awareness that the model to be followed is Jetstar, and you don't have to be a genius to figure out that the average WestJet pilot is not going to see the external "can't get their poop in a group" as a threat, but rather see a looming internal threat.
You can fantasize about potential external threats all you want, they are still just fantasy. You can't ignore the perception of an internal threat, no matter what side of the labour fence you fall on.
So, I'm in LA la Land. Throw me a bone.

Newsflash.

I'm the guy that conjured up the business plan for WJ 1.0, a pretty darn successful new entrant that completely steamrolled everyone else in the marketplace over it's first 7-8 years in the game and has done pretty well ever since. That exact business model was used by Neeleman in the launch of jetBlue and a couple others.

I'm already sitting on the model that lays out EXACTLY how to do it all over again. If it weren't for my historical allegiance to WJ, (which to some might be a surprise), not to mention my continued equity stake in the venture, I'd have already shopped the plan around amongst people I know in the industry who would be more than capable of executing the plan. Having done it before, raising capital, esp with raised foreign ownership limits, would be a piece of cake.

Trust me. There's an opportunity there. It maybe not as large as the opportunity in 1996, but it's there. You should be very, very thankful no one else has figured it out and / or been able to pull together a strong management team to do it, but I guarantee someone will at some point.

I would strongly urge you to get a deal done that allows WJ to completely dominate and control the back door for a long, long time, and pretty much regardless of what fuel does in the future.

Be creative.

Be selfish and protect WJ ALPA pilot jobs first, not guys you don't know who are working at airlines that would like nothing more than to flush WJ and your career down the toilet as soon as possible.

You need Swoop to protect your future. To give credit where credit is due, the macro plan they've come up with is light years ahead of anything else I've seen in the domestic and even North American marketplace thus far.

This being said, I don't share your vision of pilots or anyone working for peanuts. It was never the goal in 1996 and in spite of all the rhetoric, it still isn't today.

RealityChex,

Welcome back. I always enjoy reading your posts about the doom and gloom of AC and how you are “Making WJ great again”

Well, AC is alive and well, while you’re still bragging about your success from years past, your creation of some sort of external threat is laughable, like your some saviour with a ULCC.

Well times have changed and I have to ask,how do you feel about the CIRB ruling that is yet to be made public?

[Boney]

You just threw your own under the bus.

Sad

[MrMerth]

The CIRB didn’t see it that way.

[hurtin'albertan]

You just threw your own under the bus.

Sad

How so? Saving them from themselves more like it. Arguments were made by the company and alpa and the independent third party, after weighing the evidence decided that something stank, and ruled accordingly.

You know "boney", were you planning on leaving your 767 skipper job to make a fraction of your current pay so you could fly at swoop? Didn't think so. I've been reading your selfish and wilfully ignorant bs for years both here and on the old wjpa forum. Inform yourself before you spout crap in public.

How was the breakfast at the Country Inn this morning?

[Boney]

You just threw your own under the bus.

Sad

How so? Saving them from themselves more like it. Arguments were made by the company and alpa and the independent third party, after weighing the evidence decided that something stank, and ruled accordingly.

You know "boney", were you planning on leaving your 767 skipper job to make a fraction of your current pay so you could fly at swoop? Didn't think so. I've been reading your selfish and wilfully ignorant bs for years both here and on the old wjpa forum. Inform yourself before you spout crap in public.

How was the breakfast at the Country Inn this morning?

Ha ha ha.

While negotiations continue, F/O’s could at least get left seat time and make more money than they do presently. Now it all goes to the street.

Again, sad.

[saltypilot]

You just threw your own under the bus.

Sad

How so? Saving them from themselves more like it. Arguments were made by the company and alpa and the independent third party, after weighing the evidence decided that something stank, and ruled accordingly.

You know "boney", were you planning on leaving your 767 skipper job to make a fraction of your current pay so you could fly at swoop? Didn't think so. I've been reading your selfish and wilfully ignorant bs for years both here and on the old wjpa forum. Inform yourself before you spout crap in public.

How was the breakfast at the Country Inn this morning?

Ha ha ha.

While negotiations continue, F/O’s could at least get left seat time and make more money than they do presently. Now it all goes to the street.

Again, sad.

Boney, let me be clear about something brother....speaking as an F/O who’s seen many years at Westjet (passionate and proud of what was built by the employees) and many previous years as a captain elsewhere...I’m perfectly content to wait for the left seat slide and I am not the only one. This “make more money now” mentality is dangerously short sighted and in the long term harms every pilots long term value & earning potential. It disrespects every pilot who has put in the time and seen their fair share of reset buttons pushed.

Back when I was a sim instructor I would get initial candidates that had ants in their pants to quite literally sit on their hands and count to 3 before launching into procedural dialogue. The exercise routinely accomplished 2 important things that I believe are very important in the season in which we currently find ourselves. First, ones response needs to be measured and appropriate without too much excitement or it will alter the working atmosphere. It clouds decision making. Secondly, Captains don’t like fast moving hands on the flight deck. It makes them nervous and for good reason. There was nothing more calming to me as a Captain than someone who can take their time and be a part of the solution utilizing teamwork to arrive at solid decision making as opposed to running off at the mouth or otherwise deporting themselves in an unbecoming fashion leaving a trail of wreckage and bad feelings behind them.

Don’t be a part of the problem, Be a part of the solution brother.

Here’s one pilot who most certainly does not wander through life “throwing people under the bus”.

[Realitychex]

I guess I'm in lala land.
Rather than an opportunity for a ULCC in Canada your post seems to indicate that it isn't possible.
Jetsgo, failed
Other potential entrants "can't get their poop in a group".
You then refer to a vague threat of WJA 2.0 "with bright energetic guys like WJ 1.0" but fail to recognize that WJ 1.0 purposefully moved away from Low cost in order to make cold hard cash and grow.
I'm going to add, Flair appears to be rapidly moving away from it's approach to ULCC.
If we move on from your shakey analysis, you make some dramatic assumptions with regards to the WestJet pilot group and ALPA that have no foundation.
Given that the original announcement of SWOOP contained reference to WestJet pilots approval, and frozen Working conditions outlining where the pilots for SWOOP must come from, and the fact that both of these items have been ignored. Add a flexible outline (is it ten, or 40 aircraft?) Throw in a dose of awareness that the model to be followed is Jetstar, and you don't have to be a genius to figure out that the average WestJet pilot is not going to see the external "can't get their poop in a group" as a threat, but rather see a looming internal threat.
You can fantasize about potential external threats all you want, they are still just fantasy. You can't ignore the perception of an internal threat, no matter what side of the labour fence you fall on.
So, I'm in LA la Land. Throw me a bone.

Newsflash.

I'm the guy that conjured up the business plan for WJ 1.0, a pretty darn successful new entrant that completely steamrolled everyone else in the marketplace over it's first 7-8 years in the game and has done pretty well ever since. That exact business model was used by Neeleman in the launch of jetBlue and a couple others.

I'm already sitting on the model that lays out EXACTLY how to do it all over again. If it weren't for my historical allegiance to WJ, (which to some might be a surprise), not to mention my continued equity stake in the venture, I'd have already shopped the plan around amongst people I know in the industry who would be more than capable of executing the plan. Having done it before, raising capital, esp with raised foreign ownership limits, would be a piece of cake.

Trust me. There's an opportunity there. It maybe not as large as the opportunity in 1996, but it's there. You should be very, very thankful no one else has figured it out and / or been able to pull together a strong management team to do it, but I guarantee someone will at some point.

I would strongly urge you to get a deal done that allows WJ to completely dominate and control the back door for a long, long time, and pretty much regardless of what fuel does in the future.

Be creative.

Be selfish and protect WJ ALPA pilot jobs first, not guys you don't know who are working at airlines that would like nothing more than to flush WJ and your career down the toilet as soon as possible.

You need Swoop to protect your future. To give credit where credit is due, the macro plan they've come up with is light years ahead of anything else I've seen in the domestic and even North American marketplace thus far.

This being said, I don't share your vision of pilots or anyone working for peanuts. It was never the goal in 1996 and in spite of all the rhetoric, it still isn't today.

RealityChex,

Welcome back. I always enjoy reading your posts about the doom and gloom of AC and how you are “Making WJ great again”

Well, AC is alive and well, while you’re still bragging about your success from years past, your creation of some sort of external threat is laughable, like your some saviour with a ULCC.

Well times have changed and I have to ask,how do you feel about the CIRB ruling that is yet to be made public?

It's all about stage length adjusted costs. Always has been, always will be. Nothing changes.

The world is a very large aviation sandbox. I like big sand boxes.

Gotta run. I'm building a church designed for Easter Sunday's collection plate haul. Gonna a be a big day!

[Intentional Left Bank]

Myself and probably 90% of the company can't wait for this guy to be gone for good. Always easier to destroy than to create and he had proven this time and time again.

You don't speak for me.

[Blue42]

When one company that operates a specific type of aircraft, wants to start another operation with the same aircraft from the existing fleet and pay 40% less there is a serious flaw. The business's know this, and these web boards prove it. The fact there is so many on here that think it will be cool to fly for 90K as Captain on a 37 (By the way, westjet pilots are already the 2nd lowest paid in north america amongst most operators, hell even allegiant pays the same as what westjet mainline 37 guys get) and work 90 credit hours a month, for $2.50 hr periderm shows that companies will continue to do this, because they will always find some shmuck to fly it that thinks its cool.

2nd lowest???

NB Capt year 1 5th lowest among the majors and LCC/ULCC ahead of TS & SW
NB FO year 1 is 10th, with AS, UA, DL, AA & SW ahead. WS is ahead of all Canadian carriers.

Top Scale

NB Capt is 5th from the bottom ahead of RV, WG, & TS
NB FO is 4th ahead of TS and WG

WB Capt is 3rd ahead of RV & TS
WB FO is the same

Min monthly is 3rd highest, same as RV

[Mach1]

2nd lowest???

NB Capt year 1 5th lowest among the majors and LCC/ULCC ahead of TS & SW
NB FO year 1 is 10th, with AS, UA, DL, AA & SW ahead. WS is ahead of all Canadian carriers.

Top Scale

NB Capt is 5th from the bottom ahead of RV, WG, & TS
NB FO is 4th ahead of TS and WG

WB Capt is 3rd ahead of RV & TS
WB FO is the same

Min monthly is 3rd highest, same as RV

I'm not sure so I am going to ask here but, are you saying that a WestJet Captain makes more than a South West Captain? And that a WJ FO makes more than an Alaskan, United Airlines, Delta, American Airlines and South West FO?

I guess that would only be year 1 on the pay scales?

Just trying to clarify those pay comparisons.

[Blue42]

2nd lowest???

NB Capt year 1 5th lowest among the majors and LCC/ULCC ahead of TS & SW
NB FO year 1 is 10th, with AS, UA, DL, AA & SW ahead. WS is ahead of all Canadian carriers.

Top Scale

NB Capt is 5th from the bottom ahead of RV, WG, & TS
NB FO is 4th ahead of TS and WG

WB Capt is 3rd ahead of RV & TS
WB FO is the same

Min monthly is 3rd highest, same as RV

I'm not sure so I am going to ask here but, are you saying that a WestJet Captain makes more than a South West Captain? And that a WJ FO makes more than an Alaskan, United Airlines, Delta, American Airlines and South West FO?

I guess that would only be year 1 on the pay scales?

Just trying to clarify those pay comparisons.

Sorry, used wrong code. Westjet Capt makes more in year 1 then Air Transat and Sunwing, also ahead of Frontier and Spirit (that may have changed with the new contract!)

For FO, WS 10th from the bottom with only those 5 carriers making more year 1.

[Mach1]

Okay. Thanks for clearing up my confusion.

[RRJetPilot]

I believe at AT you start at year 2 cap pay if you have been FO for more than 3 years. So TS would make more year 1 Cap no? Since there are no DEC.

[musicalpilotchairs]

Just to get this thread back on track to the title, GGG IS NOT a modern Frank Lorenzo, Lorenzo was a businessman.