CIRB Decision

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altiplano
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CIRB Decision

#1 Post by altiplano » Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:54 am

I heard they sided with ALPA on ALL the complaints.

Congratulations to Westjet pilots and ALPA in a major victory protecting your future and the profession.
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flyinhigh
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Re: CIRB Decision

#2 Post by flyinhigh » Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:56 am

There is still a few outstanding issues before the board, but yes, so far ruling are in pilots favour.

Sorry, JS for the WJ MEC not knowing their ass from a whole in the ground. I guess your position is safer now, even though you didn't want it to be.
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Re: CIRB Decision

#3 Post by altiplano » Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:59 am

I look forward to reading the full decision, but that's a lot of leverage with Swoop set to sail in just a few months and the pilots holding the keys.
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Re: CIRB Decision

#4 Post by aerodude » Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:27 am

If true, I will be impressed with ALPA. Congrats to Westjet pilots, you might have closed Pandora’s box. ACPA should pay attention.
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Re: CIRB Decision

#5 Post by DropTanks » Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:51 am

The Unfair Labour Practice complaint is still before the CIRB but the Interim Order was a clean sweep I think. I would post it but don’t think appropriate. I’m sure it’s a matter of public record on the labour board website or something. MEC is like 10 steps ahead on this stuff. Very nicely done and support for the MEC is through the roof. Accounts of the contrary are laughable. More and more “converts” are making themselves known and accepting change for the better.
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Re: CIRB Decision

#6 Post by altiplano » Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:09 pm

So moving forward from this interim order, if management wants to proceed with Swoop in their current vision they will have to hire exclusively from outside. That's a tough timeline with a start date only 3 months away...

The type training alone takes 2 months... Plus the trainers/checkers/line indoc guys that have to get into place. I don't suppose any current Westjet guys will be resigning or risking their position (#) to go start Swoop unless they are in their last month's at Westjet anyway and someone's going to give them a pile of cash.

If Swoop launches, common employer status gets awarded and it's check mate for ALPA. I think management has set a steep path to climb with its decisions thus far. Meanwhile the Pilots' timing bringing in ALPA couldn't have been better.
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handyandy
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Re: CIRB Decision

#7 Post by handyandy » Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:26 pm

I agree with your statement...

"The type training alone takes 2 months... Plus the trainers/checkers/line indoc guys that have to get into place. I don't suppose any current Westjet guys will be resigning or risking their position (#) to go start Swoop unless they are in their last month's at Westjet anyway and someone's going to give them a pile of cash."

As far as leaving to go to Swoop to end a career may seem like a good idea. As of now we have zero retirement benefits, it would be a shame to leave for swoop to find out months later AlPA negotiated benefits for retirees.
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Re: CIRB Decision

#8 Post by squawk » Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:01 pm

YVR Lurker wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:44 am
This decision never NEVER would have happened with the WJPA at the helm. They wouldn’t have fought that battle.
Thank you MEC and ALPA.

G
Maybe the WJPA wouldn’t have had to fight that battle in the first place. Maybe Westjet pilots would have been given the flying. Collaboration compared to what appears to be constant conflict. I think this battle is far from over.
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Re: CIRB Decision

#9 Post by handyandy » Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:56 pm

Hi Squat

I disagree with what you wrote:

"Maybe the WJPA wouldn’t have had to fight that battle in the first place. Maybe Westjet pilots would have been given the flying. Collaboration compared to what appears to be constant conflict. I think this battle is far from over."


I don't think the WJPA fought battles. At best, they suggested a few ideas to the company.

"Maybe they would have been given the flying" Westjet is a business, what you are describing sounds like a charity.

Collaboration is a wonderful thing! The majority of Westjet Pilots didn't see things the same as the WJPA. The Majority voted for ALPA!

The WJPA was in constant conflict. This will pass, try to set you emotions aside, although you disagree with the majority; your beliefs are partially valid. I think many can sympathize with you, it seems you have an emotional attachment to the WJPA, try to put that aside and think rationally about what's going on.

If you have questions or concerns use you resources, try to be more solution focused.

Remember and Don't forget, put those emotions aside for a couple months and be the best damn aviator you can!
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Re: CIRB Decision

#10 Post by tbaylx » Sun Mar 04, 2018 5:16 am

altiplano wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:09 pm
So moving forward from this interim order, if management wants to proceed with Swoop in their current vision they will have to hire exclusively from outside. That's a tough timeline with a start date only 3 months away...

The type training alone takes 2 months... Plus the trainers/checkers/line indoc guys that have to get into place. I don't suppose any current Westjet guys will be resigning or risking their position (#) to go start Swoop unless they are in their last month's at Westjet anyway and someone's going to give them a pile of cash.

If Swoop launches, common employer status gets awarded and it's check mate for ALPA. I think management has set a steep path to climb with its decisions thus far. Meanwhile the Pilots' timing bringing in ALPA couldn't have been better.
How is it a victory for WestJet pilots if now swoop is going to hire exclusively off the street? Are you suggesting that they won't be able to get up and running by June with OTS candidates?
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Re: CIRB Decision

#11 Post by KAG » Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:07 am

The trainers and management pilots were most likely coming from wj. That probably won't happen now. This all takes time and that's something that's running out for swoop.
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Re: CIRB Decision

#12 Post by Boney » Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:53 am

Hope you are happy. There were enough WJA pilots that applied for the LOA to crew at least 3 airplanes, mostly commuters.
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Re: CIRB Decision

#13 Post by cjet » Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:21 am

Very happy Boney. Big smile on my face.

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Re: CIRB Decision

#14 Post by NATA » Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:24 am

Boney wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:53 am
Hope you are happy. There were enough WJA pilots that applied for the LOA to crew at least 3 airplanes, mostly commuters.
I am very happy with the CIRB decision. Congratulations to the volunteers putting in all the time and effort, it's appreciated by the majority for sure!
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Re: CIRB Decision

#15 Post by Red1 » Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:47 am

From what I have heard they have all ready hired their first ten off the street hires.. apparently mostly from Cargo jet. Anyone who doesn't think that WestJet won't be able to find OTS pilots to fly for Swoop needs to give there head a shake... you will always find someone, and then once it become an entity, and is actually up and running it will be even easier. This needs to stop before it even begins. Both parties need to work this out.
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Re: CIRB Decision

#16 Post by Boney » Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:51 am

Smile. Lol

Long live the brotherhood.
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Re: CIRB Decision

#17 Post by Boney » Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:01 am

By the way, and I stand corrected, but, isn’t Rouge flown by AC pilots on LOA, or something similar, working for less than AC pay, I think using WJA contract?

If yes, funny that they are egging you on to strike? I guess they are looking out for you, or maybe, looking out for themselves especially with their stock price up.

Like I said, interesting times ahead.
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Re: CIRB Decision

#18 Post by FL410AV8R » Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:39 am

Boney wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:53 am
Hope you are happy. There were enough WJA pilots that applied for the LOA to crew at least 3 airplanes, mostly commuters.
I really do wonder where you get this sort of fictitious information.

I don't think you will find much sympathy among WestJet pilots for those within our ranks who thought it would be OK take one of these LOAs to skip the seniority queue and take an upgrade at Swoop ahead of fellow pilots who have been waiting patiently for 6-8 years for their upgrade opportunity only to see the goalposts disappear over the horizon.

Anyone who thinks this is acceptable really needs their moral compass realigned and is deserving of any criticism leveled at them.

3 airplanes? Really? 8-10 crews per tail. So you are telling me that 40-50 WJ pilots took these LOAs, I find that extremely hard to believe.

In the last month of flying, I have talked to a lot of pilots and not a single one has expressed even a passing interest in the LOAs being offered nor do they know of any of their friends who are. I am thinking that any who have considered taking this opportunity to screw over their peers are keeping pretty quiet about it because they know what they are doing is morally reprehensible.
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Re: CIRB Decision

#19 Post by groundpilot » Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:10 pm

Are the anti - ALPA posters on here the same guy?

Boney, NewCommercialPilot, squawk, rotten apple

As for Boney or whoever this person's current alias is,

Rouge does not involve a LOA. Pilots bid it for various reasons. One list, period. And that was forced on us FYI
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Re: CIRB Decision

#20 Post by groundpilot » Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:10 pm

Are the anti - ALPA posters on here the same guy?

Boney, NewCommercialPilot, squawk, rotten apple

As for Boney or whoever this person's current alias is,

Rouge does not involve a LOA. Pilots bid it for various reasons. One list, period. And that was forced on us FYI
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Re: CIRB Decision

#21 Post by Boney » Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:26 pm

groundpilot wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:10 pm
Are the anti - ALPA posters on here the same guy?

Boney, NewCommercialPilot, squawk, rotten apple

As for Boney or whoever this person's current alias is,

Rouge does not involve a LOA. Pilots bid it for various reasons. One list, period. And that was forced on us FYI

One list and forced on us. Interesting.

Maybe that is where alpa should look for guidance in solving this. The one list works for Encore and the relationship seem to be working. Push for a one list with Swoop and maybe this may get everyone back to the table vs having the CIRB imposing something that could be less than the current contract.

Just wondering.

Ps. I’m anti union as I’ve had my fill of the crap they put out. This pilot group will get a wake up call and will wonder what happened.
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Re: CIRB Decision

#22 Post by schnitzel2k3 » Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:40 pm

FL410AV8R wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:39 am


In the last month of flying, I have talked to a lot of pilots and not a single one has expressed even a passing interest in the LOAs being offered nor do they know of any of their friends who are. I am thinking that any who have considered taking this opportunity to screw over their peers are keeping pretty quiet about it because they know what they are doing is morally reprehensible.
Who in their right mind would express within the WS environment the desire to go to Swoop when they were internal? The verbal beatings they would likely take would best be avoided by nodding their head and when the timing is right zip over quietly.

I'm a little confused at everyone patting themselves on the back - wasn't the flying supposed to be done by WS pilots not OTS? That's what spurred 99% of the discussions in the last month regarding Swoop. Now I'm reading WS pilots will not crew Swoop 37s thanks to ALPA - and it was celebrated as a success (please correct me if I am wrong).

If you think they can't find enough OTS guys to crew the planes, the union is dreaming - and a blacklist isn't a real threat - lots of guys aren't interested in WS or AC - just left seats and money. Lots of companies fly 37s - it is one of the most issued type ratings.

I think I worked out that over the standard course of a Westjet pilots career - not including the extras - their average salary is equivalent to earning a very rough 95k a year after 10 years as FO (and that includes first year captain pay at yr 10). So if you could skip from year 2-3 straight to 97k plus, with similar working conditions - what difference does it make what colour tie you wear. You'll be unhappy wearing teal or you'll be unhappy wearing pink but being paid more.

Whatever injunction you guys are working on to stop the flying altogether unless its teal had better happen soon or wait for the mutiny.

S.
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Re: CIRB Decision

#23 Post by Transonic » Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:27 pm

This is part 1 of a 3 part series. Part 2 is negotiations and Part 3 is the ULP.

We've simply removed a large stack of chips from the company's negotiation position. They still have the OTS card, but that will come with a lot of pain. Maybe too much pain.
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Re: CIRB Decision

#24 Post by Mach1 » Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:12 pm

I have flown with people who have expressed an interest in going to Swoop internally. They all have a few things in common. They all came from Encore. The only thing they see are 4 bars in their eyes and nothing else matters. They are really bad at math.
schnitzel2k3 wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:40 pm
just left seats and money.
I'm going to break this down into it's two components:

Left seat:

If you HAVE to be a captain then you should never be one. You need some therapy and a bit of time out to learn how to relax a little. Good captains know how to play well with others. Being an FO teaches you how to be a good captain.

Money: How, exactly, is this more money?

Swoop Captain;
$103.57
10% ESPP
Per Diem $2.50/hour
Minimum monthly guarantee of 75 hours
Overtime triggered at 90 hours

WestJet FO (year 6);
$106.06
20% ESP
Per Diem $3.1942/hour (domestic)
Minimum monthly guarantee of 77.5 hours
Overtime triggered at 82.5 hours

The guy sitting in the right seat enjoying his life will out earn the Swoop captain, work 4 days less a month and look forward to year after year of pay gains that the Swoop guy will never see. I know math is tricky but the last time I checked, 106 is bigger than 103.
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Re: CIRB Decision

#25 Post by schnitzel2k3 » Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:31 pm

Mach1 wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:12 pm

schnitzel2k3 wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:40 pm
just left seats and money.
I'm going to break this down into it's two components:

Left seat:

If you HAVE to be a captain then you should never be one. You need some therapy and a bit of time out to learn how to relax a little. Good captains know how to play well with others. Being an FO teaches you how to be a good captain.

Money: How, exactly, is this more money?

Swoop Captain;
$103.57
10% ESPP
Per Diem $2.50/hour
Minimum monthly guarantee of 75 hours
Overtime triggered at 90 hours

WestJet FO (year 6);
$106.06
20% ESP
Per Diem $3.1942/hour (domestic)
Minimum monthly guarantee of 77.5 hours
Overtime triggered at 82.5 hours

The guy sitting in the right seat enjoying his life will out earn the Swoop captain, work 4 days less a month and look forward to year after year of pay gains that the Swoop guy will never see. I know math is tricky but the last time I checked, 106 is bigger than 103.
I agree with your captain statement - but at the end of the day - salary trumps many things - and you don't earn much to start for the first 4 years anywhere airline wise - so I can see why people yearn for 4 bars if for nothing else but salary.

Now back to being confrontational, I didn't say year 6 did I. I spoke about an average salary over 10 years at Westjet that equated to around 95k (AVERAGE). Now that wasn't counting 6 years at Encore - and it included 1 yr at 10yr captain pay. If you count 6 years (or any number of years at Encore) it skews that value much lower.

First year captain at Swoop earns 97k to start, not including bonus. They have ESPP and WS travel priveledges - so for all intents and purposes - not terribly different. They likely will work more - which means their salary will be higher - likely closer to 110k (still pathetic wrt any other 737 gig). Short term gains - but lots of guys only look 2 steps forward and miss the bigger picture.

You will likely see guys in year 1/2 - possibly as far out as year 4 mainline running the economics and betting on a blacklist falling through. Guys at Encore don't have much to bring to Swoop yet - but they are running the economics too.

It's unfortunate how septic the aviation pool has become, bickering about shitty companies like this.

At the end of the day - I hope it doesn't terribly affect WS pilots, I hope guys are happy with their new roles, and that Swoop doesn't drag the entire industry in the mud.

S.
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