CIRB Decision

[Ah_yeah]

I have flown with people who have expressed an interest in going to Swoop internally. They all have a few things in common. They all came from Encore. The only thing they see are 4 bars in their eyes and nothing else matters. They are really bad at math.

just left seats and money.

I'm going to break this down into it's two components:

Left seat:

If you HAVE to be a captain then you should never be one. You need some therapy and a bit of time out to learn how to relax a little. Good captains know how to play well with others. Being an FO teaches you how to be a good captain.

Money: How, exactly, is this more money?

Swoop Captain;
$103.57
10% ESPP
Per Diem $2.50/hour
Minimum monthly guarantee of 75 hours
Overtime triggered at 90 hours

WestJet FO (year 6);
$106.06
20% ESP
Per Diem $3.1942/hour (domestic)
Minimum monthly guarantee of 77.5 hours
Overtime triggered at 82.5 hours

The guy sitting in the right seat enjoying his life will out earn the Swoop captain, work 4 days less a month and look forward to year after year of pay gains that the Swoop guy will never see. I know math is tricky but the last time I checked, 106 is bigger than 103.

And there you have it. Swoop will make peanuts from the "once in a decade"-type pax. This is a diversion. Your numbers point out exactly why management is so hard up to get this done. They want downward wage pressure on WJA at large and Swoop is just the tool/diversion to get it done. Don't get fooled. Time to roll up the newspaper and whack these guys on the behind. This is not how you treat professional pilots in todays market. Can't blame them for trying I guess, as there are always a few wannabes and cool-aid drinkers. I have no horse in this race but enough is enough. Pilots are not baristas.

[schnitzel2k3]

Are the anti - ALPA posters on here the same guy?

Boney, NewCommercialPilot, squawk, rotten apple

As for Boney or whoever this person's current alias is,

Rouge does not involve a LOA. Pilots bid it for various reasons. One list, period. And that was forced on us FYI

Add to the list: schnitzel2k3 & WeedPro2000

So it appears these are all same flying suit whacko:

1) Boney
2) NewCommercialPilot
3) squawk
4) rotten apple #1
5) schnitzel2k3
6) WeedPro2000

This website, although it has valuable information and is a good place for sharing info, is brutal for policing any kind of annoyances such as this. Could be much better

Annoyances such as people disagreeing with others opinions - providing alternative possibilities. That's called a discussion. I am trying to maintain the outsiders perspective but clearly that's too much for you guys to handle.

[KAG]

So your t4 is huge but what was your highest net paycheck ?

[Flyingsquirrelsuck]

But back to the CIRB.

Can I approach Swoop for let’s say 5 months of work to help get them going and then ask WJ for an LOA for under the “business as usual” 6 month duration?

I couldn’t have done the two year LOA due to my support payments but I figure I could swing 5 months or so with some planning.

In spite of only flying 730 hours in 2017 I still managed to make $384,771 which is somewhere north of $500/hr hard time. It’s not China money but it’s not that bad. With my Spousal Support payments deduction and RRSP deduction I’ll be getting back $40,000 in income taxes which should finance 5 months at Swoop if they’ll have me and WJ gives me an LOA.

Does anyone know if that would violate the freeze?

Sorry John but your math doesn’t add up. Even at 1.5 times pay, your final total is a lie.

Your constant posts under different logins don’t lead to a conversation or discussion, it’s a way of controlling a message.

I guess my real question is why? What is your agenda? What is your end goal? Is it to support our pilot group or is it a selfishness

[BE02 Driver]

[CaptainHaddock]

Are the anti - ALPA posters on here the same guy?

Boney, NewCommercialPilot, squawk, rotten apple

As for Boney or whoever this person's current alias is,

Rouge does not involve a LOA. Pilots bid it for various reasons. One list, period. And that was forced on us FYI

Add to the list: schnitzel2k3 & WeedPro2000

So it appears these are all same flying suit whacko:

1) Boney
2) NewCommercialPilot
3) squawk
4) rotten apple #1
5) schnitzel2k3
6) WeedPro2000

This website, although it has valuable information and is a good place for sharing info, is brutal for policing any kind of annoyances such as this. Could be much better

Annoyances such as people disagreeing with others opinions - providing alternative possibilities. That's called a discussion. I am trying to maintain the outsiders perspective but clearly that's too much for you guys to handle.

What would probably help is creating a private Westjet forum so you guys could circle jerk yourselves and spare the general public the shock of how pathetic Westjet has become as an organization.

How's that for useful?

Mods are welcome to delete my account anytime. I just hang around for the show You guys are depressing.

Well you know what would give you a leg to stand on, not haveing a half dozen handles you rotate through (some times answering yourself on your own threads). It certainly diminishes your credibility (you know, anonymous chat forum cred ), that you have to obfuscate your own anonymous identity. It’s a little weird and pretty annoying-but maybe that’s who you are.

[schnitzel2k3]

I'm not John nor one of his many handles. Far from it, I do not work for WS - nor am I employed under any ALPA airline.

The only two points I've ever argued is that people have the right to work for whatever company they so desire and for whatever salary without being blacklisted by ALPA.

That and the only person the Westjet pilot is attempting to help is themselves and to stop pretending they are doing this for the good of the industry.

At the end of the day I have zero plans of flying for or on ANY version of Westjet, so take my criticism with a grain of salt.

Trust me, I've read John's posts and he's on a self destructive personal crusade, but to each their own, he seems to enjoy the notoriety.

S.

[WeedPro2000]

It's all good muh bruthas. No self destructive crusade here, just a crusade. I know I have to admit it's a lost cause at some point, but that point isn't now. And may never be. Until then, this is entertainment for me.

I know the math is hard to get your head around, but if one takes an OT hourly rate of $300/hr plus the 8% vac pay, that's $325/hr. When you then drop all your YYC straight time pairings and exclusively pick up OT pairings ex-YYZ, and choose lots of min credit OT stuff, well, it adds up. Throw in TB days where PS and ESP are added on, and then an ample dose of Stock Options, and you somehow wind up with the $380K number. My buddy flew more hard time hours and made $410K, but he didn't spend the summer wingsuiting and being awesome like I did. To each his own.

Guten nacht, Komraden.

[WeedPro2000]

And before I forget, I plugged in my 2017 earnings into the chart here. $380,000 in terms of annual income, puts one off the chart. Here's hoping that ALPA doesn't put me back on the chart.

[BE20 Driver]

Ask anyone who started Encore 5 years ago how much they were able to drop and pick up.

I'll help you out John, after carrying the zero and dividing by Merlot -- nothing.

The assumption that you've made is that Flica will be available from day one and that the work rules will permit you to dump your entire schedule for other's to pick up, freeing yourself to be the OT whore. 10 airplanes will be roughly 100 Captains. I doubt very much that you'll get 10 of them to call in sick every month. Seems rather optimistically high to me. I was there when Encore had 10 airplanes. There certainly weren't anywhere near that many book offs.

[RidersRule]

That's the problem John,

You keep telling us how everything is great for YOU...some of us are just asking for a little help.

You upgraded after what, two years. Top of the captain scale...making tons of money...base of your choice...never had to commute unless you chose too.

We have people here that will never see the top of the captain scale.

Take me for example. I started here at a decent age of 30. Eight years to upgrade. 12 years till I reach the top of the scale puts me at 50, and that's only because I commuted half way across the country to be a captain in YYZ because I crunched the numbers. Meanwhile I try to keep my family together being gone four more days a month. And now with Swoop starting those upgrades just vanish overnight.

I wish you would just throw your brothers a bone and try to understand what a lot of your comrades are going through instead of rubbing it in on how big your T4 is because you timed it right.

Many of us signed on to APLA not because we wanted to be here, but because the company gave us no choice. The WJPA couldn't get anything done anymore. That's a fact. And now that I've signed on to ALPA, I couldn't be happier. It's time for those of us that didn't time it right to look after ourselves. Just like you have partner.

Peace

[schnitzel2k3]

It's all good muh bruthas. No self destructive crusade here, just a crusade. I know I have to admit it's a lost cause at some point, but that point isn't now. And may never be. Until then, this is entertainment for me.

I know the math is hard to get your head around, but if one takes an OT hourly rate of $300/hr plus the 8% vac pay, that's $325/hr. When you then drop all your YYC straight time pairings and exclusively pick up OT pairings ex-YYZ, and choose lots of min credit OT stuff, well, it adds up. Throw in TB days where PS and ESP are added on, and then an ample dose of Stock Options, and you somehow wind up with the $380K number. My buddy flew more hard time hours and made $410K, but he didn't spend the summer wingsuiting and being awesome like I did. To each his own.

Guten nacht, Komraden.

Bud - no offense intended - just stating what I see. You are painting a target on your back at work with your coworkers. I see that creating a CRM risk with the less than professional ones.

The nice thing about voicing your opinion despite it potentially offending people on an anonymous forum is your ip might get jammed. VPNs are a magical thing.

But when you take the anonymity out of it - people have the ability to target you directly.

Be careful and fly safe.

S.

[mbav8r]

I'm not John nor one of his many handles. Far from it, I do not work for WS - nor am I employed under any ALPA airline.

The only two points I've ever argued is that people have the right to work for whatever company they so desire and for whatever salary without being blacklisted by ALPA.

That and the only person the Westjet pilot is attempting to help is themselves and to stop pretending they are doing this for the good of the industry.

At the end of the day I have zero plans of flying for or on ANY version of Westjet, so take my criticism with a grain of salt.

Trust me, I've read John's posts and he's on a self destructive personal crusade, but to each their own, he seems to enjoy the notoriety.

S.

So, why is it pilots should have the right to take a job that undoubtedly will have ramifications towards the WJ pilots without any ramifications of their own? The WJ pilots have the right to protect their livelihood, if a blacklist helps then so be it.
Actions have consequences, it’s even being spelled out for them so no guessing on what they might be.
Also self preservation is a damn good reason to fight this, the end result being good for the industry, does it really matter the motivation?

[tbaylx]

Because laws in this country allow people to take open jobs posted to the public if they like the terms and want to apply. If the company isn't allowed to do that under your current agreement then the CIRB will shut it down. If they are then it's none of ALPA's business who takes the job.

Just because you have an internal fight going on with your employer doesn't mean the rest of the professional pilot community is going to sacrifice an opportunity that suits them, for whatever reasons that may be, so you can get ahead. ACPA's endorsement is likely a lot more self serving than altruistic. Spare me the we're fighting for the industry bit, it's about protecting your own paycheque, which is fine, but don't expect others to be as passionate about your T4 as you are.

Keep your fight internal between the pilot group and WestJet where it belongs.

[schnitzel2k3]

I'm not John nor one of his many handles. Far from it, I do not work for WS - nor am I employed under any ALPA airline.

The only two points I've ever argued is that people have the right to work for whatever company they so desire and for whatever salary without being blacklisted by ALPA.

That and the only person the Westjet pilot is attempting to help is themselves and to stop pretending they are doing this for the good of the industry.

At the end of the day I have zero plans of flying for or on ANY version of Westjet, so take my criticism with a grain of salt.

Trust me, I've read John's posts and he's on a self destructive personal crusade, but to each their own, he seems to enjoy the notoriety.

S.

So, why is it pilots should have the right to take a job that undoubtedly will have ramifications towards the WJ pilots without any ramifications of their own? The WJ pilots have the right to protect their livelihood, if a blacklist helps then so be it.
Actions have consequences, it’s even being spelled out for them so no guessing on what they might be.
Also self preservation is a damn good reason to fight this, the end result being good for the industry, does it really matter the motivation?

Because there are going to be pilots who undoubtedly apply to Swoop without any knowledge of the current state of affairs that you and I are privy to mb8. These are the pilots who saw a position - it was better than they had it - and made the move - without knowing the blowback or supposed ramifications.

I wouldn't call it ignorance either because from what I can tell - unless they have access to internal Westjet forums - AVCanada seems to be the only place where this topic has gone nuclear. We know while there are a lot of us, this forum isn't all encompassing.

The only ones you could hold accountable to ruining upgrades and sabotaging Westjet pilots are the internal LOAs that were moving over. That obviously isn't the case anymore but at least you know who they are.

If ALPA and Westjet pilots were on an industry betterment crusade then you would be taking aim at Flair and Canada Jetlines. They are eating at your expansion opportunities, they led WS management to dream up Swoop and as I see it pay less than Swoop will in June.

S.

[jjj]

tbaylx,

As I have tried to explain before, the fight is internal but the ramifications go beyond the doors of the WestJet world. Yes we are fighting for our T4s and by doing so we are trying to hold a bar. When that bar falls it affects the negotiating capitol at other airlines when it comes time to negotiate wages.

If SWOOP gets off the ground in the manner desired by our former CEO - it creates downward pressure on all airlines pilots that operate a similar size aircraft in Canada. It also sets a precedent on how any operator can bypass a labour group and reset wages.

The internal fight is definitely for our T4s - especially for the guys further down the list than me whom are facing yet another example of the goal posts moving that negatively impacts their career. It is also by association very much altruistic.

JJJ

[mbav8r]

I'm not John nor one of his many handles. Far from it, I do not work for WS - nor am I employed under any ALPA airline.

The only two points I've ever argued is that people have the right to work for whatever company they so desire and for whatever salary without being blacklisted by ALPA.

That and the only person the Westjet pilot is attempting to help is themselves and to stop pretending they are doing this for the good of the industry.

At the end of the day I have zero plans of flying for or on ANY version of Westjet, so take my criticism with a grain of salt.

Trust me, I've read John's posts and he's on a self destructive personal crusade, but to each their own, he seems to enjoy the notoriety.

S.

So, why is it pilots should have the right to take a job that undoubtedly will have ramifications towards the WJ pilots without any ramifications of their own? The WJ pilots have the right to protect their livelihood, if a blacklist helps then so be it.
Actions have consequences, it’s even being spelled out for them so no guessing on what they might be.
Also self preservation is a damn good reason to fight this, the end result being good for the industry, does it really matter the motivation?

Because there are going to be pilots who undoubtedly apply to Swoop without any knowledge of the current state of affairs that you and I are privy to mb8. These are the pilots who saw a position - it was better than they had it - and made the move - without knowing the blowback or supposed ramifications.

I wouldn't call it ignorance either because from what I can tell - unless they have access to internal Westjet forums - AVCanada seems to be the only place where this topic has gone nuclear. We know while there are a lot of us, this forum isn't all encompassing.

The only ones you could hold accountable to ruining upgrades and sabotaging Westjet pilots are the internal LOAs that were moving over. That obviously isn't the case anymore but at least you know who they are.

If ALPA and Westjet pilots were on an industry betterment crusade then you would be taking aim at Flair and Canada Jetlines. They are eating at your expansion opportunities, they led WS management to dream up Swoop and as I see it pay less than Swoop will in June.

S.

This seems to have come full circle, I seem to recall you making this argument before and it doesn’t hold water for me. Apologies if it was not you but, if you are a pilot applying at a company that has news articles referring to a labour complaint and mentions a 40% pay reduction, you’d have to be a complete moron to not realize there would be blow back in some form.
You use the tools you have available, 40% pay raises for most US companies and here in Canukistan, we apologize and make excuses for pilots undercutting other pilots by 40%.

[CaptainHaddock]

I'm not John nor one of his many handles. Far from it, I do not work for WS - nor am I employed under any ALPA airline.

The only two points I've ever argued is that people have the right to work for whatever company they so desire and for whatever salary without being blacklisted by ALPA.

That and the only person the Westjet pilot is attempting to help is themselves and to stop pretending they are doing this for the good of the industry.

At the end of the day I have zero plans of flying for or on ANY version of Westjet, so take my criticism with a grain of salt.

Trust me, I've read John's posts and he's on a self destructive personal crusade, but to each their own, he seems to enjoy the notoriety.

S.

Re: CIRB Decision
Report this post Quote
#59 Post by schnitzel2k3 » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:04 pm

FL410AV8R wrote: ↑Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:29 pm
schnitzel2k3 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:08 pm
FL410AV8R wrote: ↑Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:54 pm


Add Johnny Hot Rocks and Schnitzel2k3 to that list of multiple personalities.
Lol - not quite. Nice try Poirot Just because individuals share similar observations doesn't mean they are automatically the same person.

I just like stirring up conversation when you guys get all self absorbed in your rah rah rah

S.
Given the wing suit flying, member measuring individuals penchant for all things German and 2k3 being his date of hire the coincidences are just too much.
I standby my Poirot comment. Way to go bud. Good job cracking the case.

You just admitted it a couple of pages back on this thread as far as I can see in your message, if I’m mistaken carry on with your anger at WestJet pilots for trying to fly WestJets planes.

[schnitzel2k3]

I'm not John nor one of his many handles. Far from it, I do not work for WS - nor am I employed under any ALPA airline.

The only two points I've ever argued is that people have the right to work for whatever company they so desire and for whatever salary without being blacklisted by ALPA.

That and the only person the Westjet pilot is attempting to help is themselves and to stop pretending they are doing this for the good of the industry.

At the end of the day I have zero plans of flying for or on ANY version of Westjet, so take my criticism with a grain of salt.

Trust me, I've read John's posts and he's on a self destructive personal crusade, but to each their own, he seems to enjoy the notoriety.

S.

Re: CIRB Decision
Report this post Quote
#59 Post by schnitzel2k3 » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:04 pm

FL410AV8R wrote: ↑Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:29 pm
schnitzel2k3 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:08 pm
FL410AV8R wrote: ↑Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:54 pm


Add Johnny Hot Rocks and Schnitzel2k3 to that list of multiple personalities.
Lol - not quite. Nice try Poirot Just because individuals share similar observations doesn't mean they are automatically the same person.

I just like stirring up conversation when you guys get all self absorbed in your rah rah rah

S.
Given the wing suit flying, member measuring individuals penchant for all things German and 2k3 being his date of hire the coincidences are just too much.
I standby my Poirot comment. Way to go bud. Good job cracking the case.

You just admitted it a couple of pages back on this thread as far as I can see in your message,

anyway-of course WestJet pilots are doing this for WestJet pilots, we’re not a charity organization-WestJet negotiates contracts for all services and equipment, be it Encrore Flight Attendants, aircraft leases, ground handlers, airport fees, pilots, AME’s. What is so abhorrent to you that the pilots voted to change from the WJPA framework of representation to the APLA framework. WestJet changed to Menzies in YYZ awhile ago-did that disturb you, they have also changed benefit providers a few times over the years too. As Westjet grew from a 4 tail start to around 170 now it has had to continuously move to larger scaleable frameworks as the in-house ones just couldn’t cope with larger more complex area of operations. That is a big part of what ALPA allows, us the pilots to scale up with the company, the WJPA was overwhelmed by the end. I’m sure this will all be old news by the end of the summer.

Tongue in cheek was clearly lost in translation - the use of 'Poirot' was to poke fun at those that thought I am one of John's handles.

I do like to stir up conversation though. Sometimes people find me offensive. Sometimes I mean to be offensive. Most of the time online and IRL I'm nice and helpful.

[eyebrow737]

tbaylx,
Yes we are fighting for our T4s and by doing so we are trying to hold a bar. When that bar falls it affects the negotiating capitol at other airlines when it comes time to negotiate wages.

Says the Janitors that clean the back of the airplanes.

Thanks so much for setting the standards. WestJet and their pilots were one of the first turn our profession into a trade in the eyes of management and the public.

Bunch of self serving hypocrites you can be.