CIRB Decision

[jjj]

tbaylx,

As I have tried to explain before, the fight is internal but the ramifications go beyond the doors of the WestJet world. Yes we are fighting for our T4s and by doing so we are trying to hold a bar. When that bar falls it affects the negotiating capitol at other airlines when it comes time to negotiate wages.

If SWOOP gets off the ground in the manner desired by our former CEO - it creates downward pressure on all airlines pilots that operate a similar size aircraft in Canada. It also sets a precedent on how any operator can bypass a labour group and reset wages.

The internal fight is definitely for our T4s - especially for the guys further down the list than me whom are facing yet another example of the goal posts moving that negatively impacts their career. It is also by association very much altruistic.

JJJ

[mbav8r]

I'm not John nor one of his many handles. Far from it, I do not work for WS - nor am I employed under any ALPA airline.

The only two points I've ever argued is that people have the right to work for whatever company they so desire and for whatever salary without being blacklisted by ALPA.

That and the only person the Westjet pilot is attempting to help is themselves and to stop pretending they are doing this for the good of the industry.

At the end of the day I have zero plans of flying for or on ANY version of Westjet, so take my criticism with a grain of salt.

Trust me, I've read John's posts and he's on a self destructive personal crusade, but to each their own, he seems to enjoy the notoriety.

S.

So, why is it pilots should have the right to take a job that undoubtedly will have ramifications towards the WJ pilots without any ramifications of their own? The WJ pilots have the right to protect their livelihood, if a blacklist helps then so be it.
Actions have consequences, it’s even being spelled out for them so no guessing on what they might be.
Also self preservation is a damn good reason to fight this, the end result being good for the industry, does it really matter the motivation?

Because there are going to be pilots who undoubtedly apply to Swoop without any knowledge of the current state of affairs that you and I are privy to mb8. These are the pilots who saw a position - it was better than they had it - and made the move - without knowing the blowback or supposed ramifications.

I wouldn't call it ignorance either because from what I can tell - unless they have access to internal Westjet forums - AVCanada seems to be the only place where this topic has gone nuclear. We know while there are a lot of us, this forum isn't all encompassing.

The only ones you could hold accountable to ruining upgrades and sabotaging Westjet pilots are the internal LOAs that were moving over. That obviously isn't the case anymore but at least you know who they are.

If ALPA and Westjet pilots were on an industry betterment crusade then you would be taking aim at Flair and Canada Jetlines. They are eating at your expansion opportunities, they led WS management to dream up Swoop and as I see it pay less than Swoop will in June.

S.

This seems to have come full circle, I seem to recall you making this argument before and it doesn’t hold water for me. Apologies if it was not you but, if you are a pilot applying at a company that has news articles referring to a labour complaint and mentions a 40% pay reduction, you’d have to be a complete moron to not realize there would be blow back in some form.
You use the tools you have available, 40% pay raises for most US companies and here in Canukistan, we apologize and make excuses for pilots undercutting other pilots by 40%.

[CaptainHaddock]

I'm not John nor one of his many handles. Far from it, I do not work for WS - nor am I employed under any ALPA airline.

The only two points I've ever argued is that people have the right to work for whatever company they so desire and for whatever salary without being blacklisted by ALPA.

That and the only person the Westjet pilot is attempting to help is themselves and to stop pretending they are doing this for the good of the industry.

At the end of the day I have zero plans of flying for or on ANY version of Westjet, so take my criticism with a grain of salt.

Trust me, I've read John's posts and he's on a self destructive personal crusade, but to each their own, he seems to enjoy the notoriety.

S.

Re: CIRB Decision
Report this post Quote
#59 Post by schnitzel2k3 » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:04 pm

FL410AV8R wrote: ↑Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:29 pm
schnitzel2k3 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:08 pm
FL410AV8R wrote: ↑Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:54 pm


Add Johnny Hot Rocks and Schnitzel2k3 to that list of multiple personalities.
Lol - not quite. Nice try Poirot Just because individuals share similar observations doesn't mean they are automatically the same person.

I just like stirring up conversation when you guys get all self absorbed in your rah rah rah

S.
Given the wing suit flying, member measuring individuals penchant for all things German and 2k3 being his date of hire the coincidences are just too much.
I standby my Poirot comment. Way to go bud. Good job cracking the case.

You just admitted it a couple of pages back on this thread as far as I can see in your message, if I’m mistaken carry on with your anger at WestJet pilots for trying to fly WestJets planes.

[schnitzel2k3]

I'm not John nor one of his many handles. Far from it, I do not work for WS - nor am I employed under any ALPA airline.

The only two points I've ever argued is that people have the right to work for whatever company they so desire and for whatever salary without being blacklisted by ALPA.

That and the only person the Westjet pilot is attempting to help is themselves and to stop pretending they are doing this for the good of the industry.

At the end of the day I have zero plans of flying for or on ANY version of Westjet, so take my criticism with a grain of salt.

Trust me, I've read John's posts and he's on a self destructive personal crusade, but to each their own, he seems to enjoy the notoriety.

S.

Re: CIRB Decision
Report this post Quote
#59 Post by schnitzel2k3 » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:04 pm

FL410AV8R wrote: ↑Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:29 pm
schnitzel2k3 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:08 pm
FL410AV8R wrote: ↑Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:54 pm


Add Johnny Hot Rocks and Schnitzel2k3 to that list of multiple personalities.
Lol - not quite. Nice try Poirot Just because individuals share similar observations doesn't mean they are automatically the same person.

I just like stirring up conversation when you guys get all self absorbed in your rah rah rah

S.
Given the wing suit flying, member measuring individuals penchant for all things German and 2k3 being his date of hire the coincidences are just too much.
I standby my Poirot comment. Way to go bud. Good job cracking the case.

You just admitted it a couple of pages back on this thread as far as I can see in your message,

anyway-of course WestJet pilots are doing this for WestJet pilots, we’re not a charity organization-WestJet negotiates contracts for all services and equipment, be it Encrore Flight Attendants, aircraft leases, ground handlers, airport fees, pilots, AME’s. What is so abhorrent to you that the pilots voted to change from the WJPA framework of representation to the APLA framework. WestJet changed to Menzies in YYZ awhile ago-did that disturb you, they have also changed benefit providers a few times over the years too. As Westjet grew from a 4 tail start to around 170 now it has had to continuously move to larger scaleable frameworks as the in-house ones just couldn’t cope with larger more complex area of operations. That is a big part of what ALPA allows, us the pilots to scale up with the company, the WJPA was overwhelmed by the end. I’m sure this will all be old news by the end of the summer.

Tongue in cheek was clearly lost in translation - the use of 'Poirot' was to poke fun at those that thought I am one of John's handles.

I do like to stir up conversation though. Sometimes people find me offensive. Sometimes I mean to be offensive. Most of the time online and IRL I'm nice and helpful.

[eyebrow737]

tbaylx,
Yes we are fighting for our T4s and by doing so we are trying to hold a bar. When that bar falls it affects the negotiating capitol at other airlines when it comes time to negotiate wages.

Says the Janitors that clean the back of the airplanes.

Thanks so much for setting the standards. WestJet and their pilots were one of the first turn our profession into a trade in the eyes of management and the public.

Bunch of self serving hypocrites you can be.

[schnitzel2k3]

So, why is it pilots should have the right to take a job that undoubtedly will have ramifications towards the WJ pilots without any ramifications of their own? The WJ pilots have the right to protect their livelihood, if a blacklist helps then so be it.
Actions have consequences, it’s even being spelled out for them so no guessing on what they might be.
Also self preservation is a damn good reason to fight this, the end result being good for the industry, does it really matter the motivation?

Because there are going to be pilots who undoubtedly apply to Swoop without any knowledge of the current state of affairs that you and I are privy to mb8. These are the pilots who saw a position - it was better than they had it - and made the move - without knowing the blowback or supposed ramifications.

I wouldn't call it ignorance either because from what I can tell - unless they have access to internal Westjet forums - AVCanada seems to be the only place where this topic has gone nuclear. We know while there are a lot of us, this forum isn't all encompassing.

The only ones you could hold accountable to ruining upgrades and sabotaging Westjet pilots are the internal LOAs that were moving over. That obviously isn't the case anymore but at least you know who they are.

If ALPA and Westjet pilots were on an industry betterment crusade then you would be taking aim at Flair and Canada Jetlines. They are eating at your expansion opportunities, they led WS management to dream up Swoop and as I see it pay less than Swoop will in June.

S.

This seems to have come full circle, I seem to recall you making this argument before and it doesn’t hold water for me. Apologies if it was not you but, if you are a pilot applying at a company that has news articles referring to a labour complaint and mentions a 40% pay reduction, you’d have to be a complete moron to not realize there would be blow back in some form.
You use the tools you have available, 40% pay raises for most US companies and here in Canukistan, we apologize and make excuses for pilots undercutting other pilots by 40%.

That's ok - we all generally argue in roundabout ways when we disagree. As I see it we have lines in the sand that we aren't willing to cross, not yet at least.

In my opinion what should've happened was Swoop get slotted at the decreased pay between mainline and Encore. That keeps those routes competitive and the flying under the Teal brand. Encore guys get to move up to the 37 for more cash, options are open for right seat guys to go left. Everyone is a winner - except for Drop Tanks (sorry bud, just had to) - but the 787s are coming.

Sorry mb8. May'be one day I'll understand, but thus far the introduction of Swoop has done nothing but increase pay rates on my side of the industry. I figure if ALPA can't tender a solid agreement in the face of Swoop - they aren't worth their dues.

S.

[tbaylx]

tbaylx,

As I have tried to explain before, the fight is internal but the ramifications go beyond the doors of the WestJet world. Yes we are fighting for our T4s and by doing so we are trying to hold a bar. When that bar falls it affects the negotiating capitol at other airlines when it comes time to negotiate wages.

If SWOOP gets off the ground in the manner desired by our former CEO - it creates downward pressure on all airlines pilots that operate a similar size aircraft in Canada. It also sets a precedent on how any operator can bypass a labour group and reset wages.

The internal fight is definitely for our T4s - especially for the guys further down the list than me whom are facing yet another example of the goal posts moving that negatively impacts their career. It is also by association very much altruistic.

JJJ

Swoops wages are inline with other 737 operators in Canada (excluding AC and WestJet), some pay a bit less, some pay a bit more. Lower than mainline WestJet for sure, but so is Sunwing, Transat, Flair, Enerjet etc. Swoop isn't lowering the bar anymore than those airlines already have. Comparing it to US carriers is silly since Canadians can't go and work there. IF they ever open up the border to pilots then you'll see wages move in Canada to retain crew. Which is probably why that will never happen if the Canadian government can prevent it.

It's about protecting mainline pilots, but lets not keep repeating that it's about preventing the bar being lowered for all airline pilots in Canada.

[Donald]

Yes we are fighting for our T4s and by doing so we are trying to hold a bar. When that bar falls it affects the negotiating capitol at other airlines when it comes time to negotiate wages.

Kind of like when Encore started up and the typical WJ response was "who cares, we're creating jobs and increasing our own profit share checks".

[J Roc]

Yes we are fighting for our T4s and by doing so we are trying to hold a bar. When that bar falls it affects the negotiating capitol at other airlines when it comes time to negotiate wages.

Kind of like when Encore started up and the typical WJ response was "who cares, we're creating jobs and increasing our own profit share checks".

Donald, those words were never spoken by ANY WJ pilot, ever. I've have yet to speak to any WJ pilot that takes pride in that vote, or that we had any part in that decision. Regardless though, I'm hopeful that things will improve at Encore, given the new representation and the need to attract quality pilots.

However, I am glad that you brought up Encore though, because the Encore negotiations, or lack of, were the first of many withdrawals from the goodwill bank by GGG and his cronies.

I was there, at the town hall, when WJ and the WJPA pitched the idea of a regional airline to the pilot group. I sat about 15 feet away from GGG and FP when they promised that they would make the WAWCON industry leading. When they said "trust us". When GGG had a mini temper tantrum after many ex-regional pilots voiced their concerns. When we pushed our concerns of pay, whipsawing, one OC and many many more issues and when GGG got overwhelmed and lost control of the room. When he pouted and said "If you vote NO to this plan, you won't like plan B". When our WJPA president stood up for GGG and said "COME ON GUYS! These guys have been good to us. We have to trust them. Trust me, I've never been fucked by this company - got the Vaseline at home, waiting to get fucked!"

That's how the company, more specifically GGG, would negotiate with us - fear and intimidation backed by company controlled representation. That's why (at least one of the whys) we ended up were we are today. You can't pin Encore on this pilot group but rest assured, we will continue to raise the bar into the future.

Respectfully,

JRO

[tbaylx]

Well thought out response and explanation on Encore, hope you guys have a better working relationship moving forward.

[jjj]

J Roc,

Your recollection is accurate. Plan B was a capacity purchase agreement. It would have been a race to the bottom that makes Encore look like A scale Cathay. Encore has more ground to cover but at least it’s a realistic goal. A CPA would have been perpetual crap filled out to the lowest bidder.

You’re welcome Donald that this group voted they way it did.

Cheers y’all.

JJJ

[Greenbastard]

Either CIRB will rule on a hiring ban (off the street for Swoop), and /or Swoop will be be negotiated in to WJ/ALPA Pilots first collective agreement. These planes are being moved from WJ to Swoop in the same company. All pilots positions will be offered to pilots on the WJ pilots one list by order of seniority. Off the street pilots will go to the bottom of the list based on date of hire.
This will be how this plays out. Going to get ugly until then.

[CanadianPilotQc]

decisions or not decisions ban or not. Swoop already hired numbers of captains from Sky Regional and First Officers Off the streets as well..

[tailgunner]

Those who have been hired, can just as easily be unhired. That was and is the risk of throwing your lot in on Swoop.

[JohnnyHotRocks]

Those who have been hired, can just as easily be unhired. That was and is the risk of throwing your lot in on Swoop.

If swoop actually begins operations, getting unhired is highly unlikely

[TFTMB heavy]

Those who have been hired, can just as easily be unhired. That was and is the risk of throwing your lot in on Swoop.

If swoop actually begins operations, getting unhired is highly unlikely

The Labour Board will not allow anyone to be unhired. Also, as far as I know, there has not been a request for common employer status filed by WS pilots. That is puzzling to me if it is the case.

[FL410AV8R]

decisions or not decisions ban or not. Swoop already hired numbers of captains from Sky Regional and First Officers Off the streets as well..

Correct Swoop has hired these individuals, WestJet has not.

These pilots are walking into the middle of a well-publicized labour dispute and unless they are coming from a cave in Outer Remotistan they have no excuse for not being aware of this. This situation continues to be very fluid and very emotional and I seriously question the decision-making skills of an individual who would knowingly put themselves in that kind of a situation, especially those who are supposedly giving up stable employment with an established company.

Just like the promises of LOAs to WestJet and WestJet Encore pilots that were struck down by the CIRB these positions are still very much the subject of ongoing complaints to the CIRB and may or may not be ruled on in favour of the existing WestJet pilots. Why would anyone put themselves in the middle of that? They will have an April, May or June start date at Swoop with zero transferability to WestJet at the present time (despite what you may have been told in the interview, absolutely nothing has been agreed to yet), that and the fact that they have justified to themselves that it is ok to jump the queue ahead of F/Os that have been at WestJet for 7-8 years awaiting their upgrade will definitely make the WestJet ALPA negotiators less sympathetic to their plight when coming up with a negotiated solution.

To each, their own but don't ever try to say that you haven't been warned.

[CanadianPilotQc]

decisions or not decisions ban or not. Swoop already hired numbers of captains from Sky Regional and First Officers Off the streets as well..

Correct Swoop has hired these individuals, WestJet has not.

These pilots are walking into the middle of a well-publicized labour dispute and unless they are coming from a cave in Outer Remotistan they have no excuse for not being aware of this. This situation continues to be very fluid and very emotional and I seriously question the decision-making skills of an individual who would knowingly put themselves in that kind of a situation, especially those who are supposedly giving up stable employment with an established company.

Just like the promises of LOAs to WestJet and WestJet Encore pilots that were struck down by the CIRB these positions are still very much the subject of ongoing complaints to the CIRB and may or may not be ruled on in favour of the existing WestJet pilots. Why would anyone put themselves in the middle of that? They will have an April, May or June start date at Swoop with zero transferability to WestJet at the present time (despite what you may have been told in the interview, absolutely nothing has been agreed to yet), that and the fact that they have justified to themselves that it is ok to jump the queue ahead of F/Os that have been at WestJet for 7-8 years awaiting their upgrade will definitely make the WestJet ALPA negotiators less sympathetic to their plight when coming up with a negotiated solution.

To each, their own but don't ever try to say that you haven't been warned.

You're not wrong but we can't blame the player, we should blame the game. In fact, Westjet (MANAGEMENT) in the first place creating online job offers for Swoop.

[Fanblade]

You're not wrong but we can't blame the player.....

Yes we can. And should.

Choices = Consequences.

[Tacoma]

These swoop pilots will be on some type of probation for at least 6 months so if the CIRB says they can't work, then off they go. No reason required for termination. Scabs go away and wounds heal.