Everyday at WJ : union busting

[tbaylx]

If you want to earn US style wages, then figure out how 100% of WS's income can be earned in US$ and how WS can operate based out of the US with US costs and US levels of taxation, (at all levels), rather than Canadian levels of taxation and the issues the high levels of taxation cause. Have you checked out US operating margins vs Cdn margins recently? It's night and day.

Your management can't communicate this for obvious reasons, but the time to crush Flair is now. Not six months from now. Not a year from now. Now.

Those folks who think otherwise better be prepared to deal with far, far tougher issues than figuring out how to ensure Swoop's 10-15 aircraft have the lowest stage length adjusted costs in the business in Canada.

They'll have to deal with things like how to deal with a radical mainline downsizing if obtuse WS ALPA obstinence gives Flair and others a window to gain any traction in the market.

Everyone at WJ needs to understand the necessity to SHUT THE BACK DOOR immediately.

That issue far surpasses anything else that is going on.

All WS's competitors must be rubbing their hands with glee at what's going on at WS and the opportunity this stubborn intransigence is presenting.

I know I would. It's a dream come true for the competition. It's self sabotage at it's worst.

Again, the majority of the drivers are on board with the idea of Swoop, and WS ALPA has been willing to discuss Swoop for months. There's only one party dragging their feet here, giving the competition an opportunity to get a stronger foothold.

The majority of the drivers are onboard at wages Swoop isnt going to pay..mainline pay and an increase of 30% ?? really? I'd say the intransigence here is heavily ALPA weighted.

[tbaylx]

Westjet is not going to pay Swoop pilots over twice the hourly rate that Flair and other entrants are paying. Maybe we could get Swoop close to what our current rates are and then start working on what we really want which an improvement to mainline WAWON - specifically, schedules and cash in jeans. When the Swoop pilots flow to mainline they will be happy for the career progression.

Yes, negotiate scope with Swoop, negotiate something so that we stay on the one list, but Swoop and Mainline are not going to have the same WAWCON, unless perhaps we lower ours. I'm convinced that equal WAWCON for Swoop and Mainline is a nonstarter. When this finally all makes it to the arbitrator we are going to be in a worse place than we are now.

If you really want 100% ALPA support then get realistic about what's truly achievable.

If your MEC had taken this tact from the beginning instead of demanding mainline conditions you'd be in a far better spot right now.

Also i wouldn't assume swoop pilots are interested in flowing to mainline.

[cloak]

If you want to earn US style wages, then figure out how 100% of WS's income can be earned in US$ and how WS can operate based out of the US with US costs and US levels of taxation, (at all levels), rather than Canadian levels of taxation and the issues the high levels of taxation cause. Have you checked out US operating margins vs Cdn margins recently? It's night and day.

Your management can't communicate this for obvious reasons, but the time to crush Flair is now. Not six months from now. Not a year from now. Now.

Those folks who think otherwise better be prepared to deal with far, far tougher issues than figuring out how to ensure Swoop's 10-15 aircraft have the lowest stage length adjusted costs in the business in Canada.

They'll have to deal with things like how to deal with a radical mainline downsizing if obtuse WS ALPA obstinence gives Flair and others a window to gain any traction in the market.

Everyone at WJ needs to understand the necessity to SHUT THE BACK DOOR immediately.

That issue far surpasses anything else that is going on.

All WS's competitors must be rubbing their hands with glee at what's going on at WS and the opportunity this stubborn intransigence is presenting.

I know I would. It's a dream come true for the competition. It's self sabotage at it's worst.

Again, the majority of the drivers are on board with the idea of Swoop, and WS ALPA has been willing to discuss Swoop for months. There's only one party dragging their feet here, giving the competition an opportunity to get a stronger foothold.

The majority of the drivers are onboard at wages Swoop isnt going to pay..mainline pay and an increase of 30% ?? really? I'd say the intransigence here is heavily ALPA weighted.

ALPA used similar rhetoric in the summer of 2001 with Canada 3000 pilots, pay parity with Air Canada, pension, etc. which priced it out of its market.

[RidersRule]

I'm glad all you people on here that don't work at WestJet got it all figured out....

What's that saying.

"Don't judge someone till you've walked a mile in their shoes..."

Take me for example. Was fully anti union...and u pick away and pick away and push and push until u can't take anymore. So u stand up to the bully and say enough is enough.

I seen something once...it said something to the effect...when u push a former loyal employee until he no longer cares...you have a problem.

[Realitychex]

Westjet is not going to pay Swoop pilots over twice the hourly rate that Flair and other entrants are paying. Maybe we could get Swoop close to what our current rates are and then start working on what we really want which an improvement to mainline WAWON - specifically, schedules and cash in jeans. When the Swoop pilots flow to mainline they will be happy for the career progression.

Yes, negotiate scope with Swoop, negotiate something so that we stay on the one list, but Swoop and Mainline are not going to have the same WAWCON, unless perhaps we lower ours. I'm convinced that equal WAWCON for Swoop and Mainline is a nonstarter. When this finally all makes it to the arbitrator we are going to be in a worse place than we are now.

If you really want 100% ALPA support then get realistic about what's truly achievable.

WS ALPA folks better get realistic about how this game of chess plays out.

You are being used by a much larger organization with a very different agenda. You're being used to fight a war, but you should be far more selfish and concerned about the battle that matters to your immediate career and that is WS vs ULCC's, period.

If WS ALPA types think that ALPA is working entirely for their benefit, you are dreaming in technicolor. Ask anyone who was left hanging in the wind at C3 in Oct 2001.

I hate to break it to you but there is no mass conspiracy out there to "get" WS pilots. Everyone at WS is in the same boat from top to bottom. You do not want to be the meat in the sandwich, but that's where this is headed in the long term. Anyone remember the last meat in the sandwich? Canadian Airlines anyone?

Don't think for a second the outcome will be anything close to what happened in Dec '99. It's a very different world out there, folks. There won't be any merger, gang. Them day's is over.

I'm not particularly concerned about the "threat" of Rouge. They don't have the cost structure to be dangerous to WS's future in the grand scheme of things, esp should oil drift north.

However, if WS is unable to compete on a stage length adjusted cost basis with whatever ULCC is able to gain traction in the market place, the house collapses and you all start at square one in your career again. Not good for anyone.

That is the scenario every other airline and potential airline executive in Canada is working 24/7 to ensure occurs.

This is war folks. Rally around the flag.

Shut that back door tight.

[Go Guns]

The majority of the drivers are onboard at wages Swoop isnt going to pay..mainline pay and an increase of 30% ?? really? I'd say the intransigence here is heavily ALPA weighted.

A 30% raise is rhetoric from the fringe opposite of JS. The bulk probably realize that's not very realistic, especially for a 1st contract. However, the solidarity amongst the group that Swoop flying does not belong on a 'B' scale is on a level I've never seen here.

[Snagmaster E]

ALPA used similar rhetoric in the summer of 2001 with Canada 3000 pilots, pay parity with Air Canada, pension, etc. which priced it out of its market.

That sums the reasons for 3000's demise nicely. You only missed 9/11, Royal's books, plus a few more...

[cloak]

ALPA used similar rhetoric in the summer of 2001 with Canada 3000 pilots, pay parity with Air Canada, pension, etc. which priced it out of its market.

That sums the reasons for 3000's demise nicely. You only missed 9/11, Royal's books, plus a few more...

You're right, the official reasons for bankruptcy, according to competition bureau, were 1) Merger costs, 2) Tango, 3)9/11, it may have survived two, but not all 3 they said.
In spite of the initial ALPA rhetoric, in the end, there were pay-cuts, lay-offs and still bankruptcy ensued, days later ALPA shut down its website and left!

[goingnowherefast]

One thing I don't understand is why a highly profitable airline needs to pay only the pilots less to be viable. Mechanics, management, etc. all get the normal rates. It's mighty suspicious too that it's all timed with the union drive, certification and contract negotiations. Smells a lot like union busting.

The exact dates and times aren't relevant, everybody was hearing the same rumours and knew what was happening on both sides.

The difference in fuel burn between a 737 classic vs NG should negate any difference in pilot WAWCON. WJ already has more efficient, reliable airplanes, economies of scale and operational network to push out a small competitor. Is paying the pilots less as well really make-or-break for Swoop? I really doubt it.

[Duke15]

WJ pilot costs are 6% while the rest of the industry is sitting between 10-14%, in addition WJ has been profitable how many quarters in a row, constantly having bigger profits...yet some still think we should sit back and let management pay us less for the SAME flying...it really is true, pilots are our own worst enemy.

[yyc757]

C3 did NOT fail due to pilot wages.
Skyservice did NOT fail due to pilot wages.
Zoom did NOT fail due to pilot wages.
Canadian did NOT fail due to pilot wages.
Can Jet did NOT fail due to pilot wages.
Jets go did NOT fail due to pilot wages. (ML made $4.5m in training bond cheques at $25k a pop.)
Nation air did NOT fail due to pilot wages.


WJ pilots fly WJ (group!!!) Aircraft on one WAWCON.

[TFTMB heavy]

Don't forget WS wants to run Swoop at 189 seats, that will a 10-12% improvement on the seat cost mile.

[Realitychex]

One thing I don't understand is why a highly profitable airline needs to pay only the pilots less to be viable. Mechanics, management, etc. all get the normal rates. It's mighty suspicious too that it's all timed with the union drive, certification and contract negotiations. Smells a lot like union busting.

The exact dates and times aren't relevant, everybody was hearing the same rumours and knew what was happening on both sides.

The difference in fuel burn between a 737 classic vs NG should negate any difference in pilot WAWCON. WJ already has more efficient, reliable airplanes, economies of scale and operational network to push out a small competitor. Is paying the pilots less as well really make-or-break for Swoop? I really doubt it.

What happens when Flair or another ULCC takes advantage of the traction the ALPA intransigence is causing, finds some serious investors and uses the funds to acquire NG's or MAX aircraft in 189 seat configuration? Are you so naive as to think that isn't already being shopped to investors North America wide?

These guys spend 100% of their time trying to destroy the company you work for and issues your pay cheques. Nothing would make them happier than to see WJ turn into another Canadian. WJ ALPA leaders need to recognize this very, very quickly and come to an agreement that ensures above and beyond anything else, that the future of WJ ALPA pilots is secure, then worry about ALPA pilots at other airlines who's management would LOVE to see WJ collapse under its own weight.

I've been intimately involved in three North American LCC start ups, that today, operate a total of about 500 aircraft, with hundreds more on order. Be very thankful I'm not particularly interested in being involved in a 4th because I've already done the modeling, on exactly the same basis as the other 3 that all turned out quite well and know precisely how to put a CDN ULCC together and make a ton of money in doing so. Thank your lucky stars no one else has figured it out, yet, but eventually, they will. I guarantee it.

Everyone from top to bottom at WJ is in this fight together, be it now, or in the future. It's a war that you must win. Lose it and you'll have much, much more serious problems to have to sort out.

Shut that back door now.

[goingnowherefast]

Then they should pay dispatchers, management, FAs, CSAs, mechanics, everybody else less as well. Not just pick on the group that is certifying. 10% pay cuts across the board for everybody getting Swooped.

As a side note, I don't work for WJ. Given the labour relations at present, I don't plan to. I'm just trying to understand the logic of pissing off pilots during a global pilot shortage and economic growth.

I don't see Flair destroying WJ. If WJ management gets their way, I see lots of pilots leaving for AC/others and a crew shortage being more damaging. Might take 5 years, but it's coming. What's going on at the 703/704 operators is coming to the big ones as well.

[FL410AV8R]

I don't disagree that this segment of the market needs to be protected, but the landscape has changed and WestJet management needs to realize that they don't have carte blanche to do what they please anymore.

They are obliged to actually negotiate with the WestJet pilots through ALPA and so far they have displayed nothing but contempt for the process. Everything they have done since conciliation was announced has been an attempt to circumvent the legitimate good faith bargaining process and force their agenda. They were not available to negotiate for the first 3 and half weeks of the 60 day conciliation period but now they want an extension after wasting almost half the time. They are trying to regain control of a timeline that they have lost control over. The recently departed CEO stated publicly that he didn't see a new pilot CBA being settled in 2018 and their antics up to now have reinforced that premise

This can be resolved, but WestJet pilots will not stand by and watch their career aspirations dissolve and allow another JetStar fiasco occur just to line the pockets of a select few. Swoop was originally 3-4 aircraft, then it was 10 and then 30-40 aircraft. GS also stated many times publicly that he loved the JetStar model. The bottom line is that many of us don't trust this management team to do anything but line their own pockets. When 50%+ of their compensation is performance-based there is a very great incentive to meet or exceed those targets. This creates the ultimate conflict of interest, by cutting the compensation of others you get to increase your own and greed is a very base emotion.

Reality if someone of your calibre was involved it may lend some credibility to the venture, but unlike the 4 individuals who started WJ these MBAs running the place now don't have an entrepreneurial bone in their bodies and are just focused on cutting costs at all costs to the detriment of everything else.

You of all people know that the airline within an airline model is doomed to failure. I am sure a search would reveal your past thoughts on this when Zip, Tango, Ted, Song, and all their brethren were announced and subsequently failed. Swoop can be accomplished by the proper marketing of the recently announced "Economy Lowest" fare bucket without the need to double up on the infrastructure and slash the pilot's wage. This is about resetting pilot costs at WestJet that we have been lead to believe are responsible for the cost creep over the last number of years. A proper look at the numbers (which I am sure you could get access to) would show that pilot costs are not the problem at WestJet, we are a relatively small 6% of revenues compared to 10-15% for other pilot groups. The real cause of the cost creep IMHO is the almost legacy costs elsewhere in the operation. Pilots are just an easy target and we have had enough of the death by 1000 cuts.

This management team has managed to take one of the most rabidly loyal pilot groups on the planet and piss them off to the point that labour action is distinctly possible in the near future, it takes a special kind of greed and betrayal of trust to accomplish that. So instead of pointing fingers at ALPA and the WestJet pilots to fix this mess, you should be pointing them at the executive floor.

[Flyingsquirrelsuck]

I don't disagree that this segment of the market needs to be protected, but the landscape has changed and WestJet management needs to realize that they don't have carte blanche to do what they please anymore.

They are obliged to actually negotiate with the WestJet pilots through ALPA and so far they have displayed nothing but contempt for the process. Everything they have done since conciliation was announced has been an attempt to circumvent the legitimate good faith bargaining process and force their agenda. They were not available to negotiate for the first 3 and half weeks of the 60 day conciliation period but now they want an extension after wasting almost half the time. They are trying to regain control of a timeline that they have lost control over. The recently departed CEO stated publicly that he didn't see a new pilot CBA being settled in 2018 and their antics up to now have reinforced that premise

This can be resolved, but WestJet pilots will not stand by and watch their career aspirations dissolve and allow another JetStar fiasco occur just to line the pockets of a select few. Swoop was originally 3-4 aircraft, then it was 10 and then 30-40 aircraft. GS also stated many times publicly that he loved the JetStar model. The bottom line is that many of us don't trust this management team to do anything but line their own pockets. When 50%+ of their compensation is performance-based there is a very great incentive to meet or exceed those targets. This creates the ultimate conflict of interest, by cutting the compensation of others you get to increase your own and greed is a very base emotion.

Reality if someone of your calibre was involved it may lend some credibility to the venture, but unlike the 4 individuals who started WJ these MBAs running the place now don't have an entrepreneurial bone in their bodies and are just focused on cutting costs at all costs to the detriment of everything else.

You of all people know that the airline within an airline model is doomed to failure. I am sure a search would reveal your past thoughts on this when Zip, Tango, Ted, Song, and all their brethren were announced and subsequently failed. Swoop can be accomplished by the proper marketing of the recently announced "Economy Lowest" fare bucket without the need to double up on the infrastructure and slash the pilot's wage. This is about resetting pilot costs at WestJet that we have been lead to believe are responsible for the cost creep over the last number of years. A proper look at the numbers (which I am sure you could get access to) would show that pilot costs are not the problem at WestJet, we are a relatively small 6% of revenues compared to 10-15% for other pilot groups. The real cause of the cost creep IMHO is the almost legacy costs elsewhere in the operation. Pilots are just an easy target and we have had enough of the death by 1000 cuts.

This management team has managed to take one of the most rabidly loyal pilot groups on the planet and piss them off to the point that labour action is distinctly possible in the near future, it takes a special kind of greed and betrayal of trust to accomplish that. So instead of pointing fingers at ALPA and the WestJet pilots to fix this mess, you should be pointing them at the executive floor.

Great post. Spot on

[Flyingsquirrelsuck]

One thing I don't understand is why a highly profitable airline needs to pay only the pilots less to be viable. Mechanics, management, etc. all get the normal rates. It's mighty suspicious too that it's all timed with the union drive, certification and contract negotiations. Smells a lot like union busting.

The exact dates and times aren't relevant, everybody was hearing the same rumours and knew what was happening on both sides.

The difference in fuel burn between a 737 classic vs NG should negate any difference in pilot WAWCON. WJ already has more efficient, reliable airplanes, economies of scale and operational network to push out a small competitor. Is paying the pilots less as well really make-or-break for Swoop? I really doubt it.

What happens when Flair or another ULCC takes advantage of the traction the ALPA intransigence is causing, finds some serious investors and uses the funds to acquire NG's or MAX aircraft in 189 seat configuration? Are you so naive as to think that isn't already being shopped to investors North America wide?

These guys spend 100% of their time trying to destroy the company you work for and issues your pay cheques. Nothing would make them happier than to see WJ turn into another Canadian. WJ ALPA leaders need to recognize this very, very quickly and come to an agreement that ensures above and beyond anything else, that the future of WJ ALPA pilots is secure, then worry about ALPA pilots at other airlines who's management would LOVE to see WJ collapse under its own weight.

I've been intimately involved in three North American LCC start ups, that today, operate a total of about 500 aircraft, with hundreds more on order. Be very thankful I'm not particularly interested in being involved in a 4th because I've already done the modeling, on exactly the same basis as the other 3 that all turned out quite well and know precisely how to put a CDN ULCC together and make a ton of money in doing so. Thank your lucky stars no one else has figured it out, yet, but eventually, they will. I guarantee it.

Everyone from top to bottom at WJ is in this fight together, be it now, or in the future. It's a war that you must win. Lose it and you'll have much, much more serious problems to have to sort out.

Shut that back door now.

Unfortunately your review of what’s happening at WJ is completely off the mark.

[Mostly Harmless]

Everyone at WS is in the same boat from top to bottom.

Were this true, WestJet would not have a union today nor would they have several more knocking on their door. Your statement is factually incorrect. The executive launched their own boat about 7 or 8 years ago, then bought a hand drill and started putting holes in the boat everyone else is in. You can tell they are not "Leaders" because they are not leading with 45% pay cuts for the Board of Directors, the CEO nor any of the EVP's. If everyone were in the "same boat" it would not be just the pilots and flight attendants who are expected to do the same work for 45% less money. You are looking down from a very high precipice and it is giving you a very distorted view of the company as it exists today rather than when you were working there. The give and take is now just take from the top down. Here's a question for you, if you dare to answer it, how much has executive compensation increased in the last 8 years compared to pilot wages? I've asked you questions like this before and you never answer.

I've been intimately involved in three North American LCC start ups, that today, operate a total of about 500 aircraft, with hundreds more on order. Be very thankful I'm not particularly interested in being involved in a 4th because I've already done the modeling, on exactly the same basis as the other 3 that all turned out quite well and know precisely how to put a CDN ULCC together and make a ton of money in doing so. Thank your lucky stars no one else has figured it out, yet, but eventually, they will. I guarantee it.

Do you seriously think you are just that much smarter than everyone else that no one has looked at this? A lot of people have looked. Smart people. People with the resources to do the job. They've all walked away. Why is that? Where is all this massive foreign investment? The rules have been altered for over a year now with no takers. Are they seeing something you are not? Why don't you start up number 4 and make yourself a lot of money if it is so easily done? I'm not saying you are wrong but I am questioning your message. If the market were that ripe, and that easy, then someone would be there filling that need now. They are all struggling.

I don't disagree that this segment of the market needs to be protected, but the landscape has changed and WestJet management needs to realize that they don't have carte blanche to do what they please anymore.

The bottom line is that many of us don't trust this management team to do anything but line their own pockets. When 50%+ of their compensation is performance-based there is a very great incentive to meet or exceed those targets. This creates the ultimate conflict of interest, by cutting the compensation of others you get to increase your own and greed is a very base emotion.

This is about resetting pilot costs at WestJet that we have been lead to believe are responsible for the cost creep over the last number of years. A proper look at the numbers (which I am sure you could get access to) would show that pilot costs are not the problem at WestJet, we are a relatively small 6% of revenues compared to 10-15% for other pilot groups. The real cause of the cost creep IMHO is the almost legacy costs elsewhere in the operation. Pilots are just an easy target and we have had enough of the death by 1000 cuts.

This management team has managed to take one of the most rabidly loyal pilot groups on the planet and piss them off to the point that labour action is distinctly possible in the near future, it takes a special kind of greed and betrayal of trust to accomplish that. So instead of pointing fingers at ALPA and the WestJet pilots to fix this mess, you should be pointing them at the executive floor.

This is a very important point. All of it. It is what the executive should be looking at and paying attention to right now, not Flair. Get all the executive and workers back on the same boat so we can pull in the same direction. To use the earlier stated analogy of a war, you need all your troops fighting as one to beat the enemy. But cohesion is not the focus of the executive, it's actually division. So how am I supposed to take the message of the evil enemy from without seriously when I am busy fighting for survival against the people who are supposed to be on my side?

We talk a lot about how much pilots cost the company as a percentage of operating costs, what do all those executes cost us as a percentage of operating costs? Does anyone know? Anyone want to figure that one out? I would be shocked if it was less than 6%.

[flyer 1492]

Realitychex is just a shill for the remaining founding member.

[aerobod]

We talk a lot about how much pilots cost the company as a percentage of operating costs, what do all those executes cost us as a percentage of operating costs? Does anyone know? Anyone want to figure that one out? I would be shocked if it was less than 6%.

The senior leadership team at WestJet comprises very close to 100 people, these are Directors, VPs, EVPs & the CEO. The Director band salaries are published on WestNet, the compensation for the Executive is in the annual report. On-target Director compensation is less than the top paid pilots, yet 60 hour weeks are the norm with expected availability of 24x7 (including checking in when on vacation). Of the 100 senior leadership, 70% are Directors. Total compensation cost (of which salary is only about 50% for the whole group) is less than 1% of operating costs.