Everyday at WJ : union busting

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goingnowherefast
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Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

Post by goingnowherefast » Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:47 pm

Im still waiting for an answer from Realitychex as to why, if everybody has so much to loose, why is it only the pilots are being offered reduced pay rates? If it's so critical to the success of Swoop and WJ, shouldn't everybody be getting "swooped" equally?

I'd venture to guess it's got nothing to do with pay and is just union busting in disguise.
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Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

Post by aerobod » Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:54 pm

goingnowherefast wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:47 pm
I'd venture to guess it's got nothing to do with pay and is just union busting in disguise.
All the dedicated Swoop employees are compensated at Swoop rates and conditions, not just pilots. A search on WestNet using “swoop” as a keyword will show who they are.
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Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

Post by goingnowherefast » Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:18 pm

Mechanics? Management? Dispatchers?

I'm not a WJ employee, so can't look it up. Just a confused outsider who doesn't understand why WJ is treating their pilots like crap.
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Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

Post by aerobod » Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:22 pm

goingnowherefast wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:18 pm
Mechanics? Management? Dispatchers?
Those within WestJet can take a look, it doesn’t concern those outside.
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Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

Post by goingnowherefast » Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:30 pm

The way WJ is going with this and the pilot shortage, there will be less and less within WJ.
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Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

Post by cloak » Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:45 pm

Emotions aside for a moment, I think what Realitychex was trying to impress upon, is that management's responsibility has grown with the airline size, whereas the responsibilities of a B737's pilots, as great as they may be, are still similar. There is validity to that as one is paid for one's responsibility. Add to that, It is likely that management at Swoop would also be at "Swoop" rates, whatever percentage of Westjet that works out to be. It is unlikely that Swoop CEO for instance makes the same as Westjet CEO, because he likely reports to him.

And if ALPA is promising/seeking a substantial increase, would it not be good strategy to agree to Swoop for now, focus on improving Westjet's B737 and B787 compensation, and then in time try to regroup and bring in Swoop folks and reconnect allowing longer LOAs for Encore people and junior B737 FOs who benefit from the higher pay and experience at Swoop on a 2-3 year LOA? One cannot expect to win every battle and the war too!...raising shields...! :)
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Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

Post by GAF » Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:18 pm

In other words, and without wanting to sound contrite, the job of flying a 737 around North America hasn't changed much. It carries the same level of technical expertise and responsibility as it always has.


I will need to disagree with this comment. When I started with WS we never went East of ywg. Our planes didn't fly RNP approaches or departures. We didnt fly ETOPS. We didn't fly from JFK to YYC to Yellowknife, back to Calgary, to Orlando, and on to Toronto all in a 4 day pairing. The route structure is much more complicated. With no area of operations all pilots are expected to know everything about every airport. Flying a -200 between Calgary, Vancouver, Kelowna, Edmonton and Winnipeg was much different than what is required of the WS pilots today. The job is much more different than "15" years ago, like you said. Much more complicated.
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Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

Post by Flyingsquirrelsuck » Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:39 am

cloak wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:45 pm
Emotions aside for a moment, I think what Realitychex was trying to impress upon, is that management's responsibility has grown with the airline size, whereas the responsibilities of a B737's pilots, as great as they may be, are still similar. There is validity to that as one is paid for one's responsibility. Add to that, It is likely that management at Swoop would also be at "Swoop" rates, whatever percentage of Westjet that works out to be. It is unlikely that Swoop CEO for instance makes the same as Westjet CEO, because he likely reports to him.

And if ALPA is promising/seeking a substantial increase, would it not be good strategy to agree to Swoop for now, focus on improving Westjet's B737 and B787 compensation, and then in time try to regroup and bring in Swoop folks and reconnect allowing longer LOAs for Encore people and junior B737 FOs who benefit from the higher pay and experience at Swoop on a 2-3 year LOA? One cannot expect to win every battle and the war too!...raising shields...! :)
How in the world would a pilot group ever see a better contract if an alter ego airline is started within the same company flying the same aircraft with pilots working for 40% less money.

Do you think management will pay a higher price to the original pilot group? Absolutely not my friend.

Agreeing to let Swoop fly is a danger to WJ pilots futures
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Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

Post by pigboat » Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:02 am

Notes from the side lines.

Management SHOULD be concerned about doing so much damage to their relationships with their pilots. The damage can last for ten years or more! If the WJ pilots loose the resolve to be dedicated employees and become only out for themselves, it becomes a long and expensive road to come back from.

They are using Swoop in one last desperate attempt to cheapen the pilot group.( both in wages and working conditions) They refuse to understand that after a fifty year surplus of qualified pilots that it has come to an abrupt END!

Pilots have choices! Some are voting with their feet and going to A.C. and elsewhere.

Be prepared to vote with your feet and strike if you must. Anyone that has had to go that route will tell you that it is a last resort BUT your pilots must be prepared to take it to the wall if pushed into it! The long term damage to the employee/management relationship can last a very long time. On strike the Company will loose 25 million a day, or more, and that has a sharp way of bringing both parties together in finding an EQUITABLE solution.

A strike is good for no one. BUT. sometimes it gets forced upon you. Swoop and all it stands for is destructive to the whole pilot group. If you stick together, you will defeat this attack.

Regards.
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Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

Post by WeedPro2000 » Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:44 am

GAF wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:18 pm
In other words, and without wanting to sound contrite, the job of flying a 737 around North America hasn't changed much. It carries the same level of technical expertise and responsibility as it always has.


I will need to disagree with this comment. When I started with WS we never went East of ywg. Our planes didn't fly RNP approaches or departures. We didnt fly ETOPS. We didn't fly from JFK to YYC to Yellowknife, back to Calgary, to Orlando, and on to Toronto all in a 4 day pairing. The route structure is much more complicated. With no area of operations all pilots are expected to know everything about every airport. Flying a -200 between Calgary, Vancouver, Kelowna, Edmonton and Winnipeg was much different than what is required of the WS pilots today. The job is much more different than "15" years ago, like you said. Much more complicated.
Adding to the list of things that have changed:

1) We don't do dive and drive NDB approaches anymore.
2) We have EGPWS technology
3) We have CPDLC on some routes/aircraft, with more to come
4) We don't need to manually calculate thrust/takeoff speed requirements from charts
5) We don't need to enter enroute winds manually from paper flight plans, it is now a simple upload
6) We don't need to enter the flight plan route manually anymore, it is now a simple uplink
7) We don't need to carry and update paper Jeppesen approach manuals (indeed all company documents, COM/FOM etc) anymore, we have an iPad with all documents
8) We can trade or drop shifts. Easily. Online.
9) We have two online means of verifying our schedules and modifications
10) Most pilots are wearing noise cancelling headsets (some with BT technology allowing music to be listened to, so I'm told)
11) McCafe
12) Lavs on the NG are nicer than the on Classic
13) I hear that it is easier to pick up OT than what it was when I started in 2003, when it was VERY challenging to do so.
14) No requirement now to report for duty at the hangar, in Calgary, to start all pairings
15) No requirement to show up at the airport (report, no earlier than 3 hours prior to the flight to check in for standby travel



The job isn't appreciably harder now than what it was 15 years ago. It is easier and safer, with the exception of multiple time zone travel creating challenging sleep cycles.
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Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

Post by GAF » Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:57 am

Oh I forgot to add one more very important item. Some of the people we have had to fly with for multiple days makes the job very challenging.
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Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

Post by Flyingsquirrelsuck » Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:13 am

WeedPro2000 wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:44 am
GAF wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:18 pm
In other words, and without wanting to sound contrite, the job of flying a 737 around North America hasn't changed much. It carries the same level of technical expertise and responsibility as it always has.


I will need to disagree with this comment. When I started with WS we never went East of ywg. Our planes didn't fly RNP approaches or departures. We didnt fly ETOPS. We didn't fly from JFK to YYC to Yellowknife, back to Calgary, to Orlando, and on to Toronto all in a 4 day pairing. The route structure is much more complicated. With no area of operations all pilots are expected to know everything about every airport. Flying a -200 between Calgary, Vancouver, Kelowna, Edmonton and Winnipeg was much different than what is required of the WS pilots today. The job is much more different than "15" years ago, like you said. Much more complicated.
Adding to the list of things that have changed:

1) We don't do dive and drive NDB approaches anymore.
2) We have EGPWS technology
3) We have CPDLC on some routes/aircraft, with more to come
4) We don't need to manually calculate thrust/takeoff speed requirements from charts
5) We don't need to enter enroute winds manually from paper flight plans, it is now a simple upload
6) We don't need to enter the flight plan route manually anymore, it is now a simple uplink
7) We don't need to carry and update paper Jeppesen approach manuals (indeed all company documents, COM/FOM etc) anymore, we have an iPad with all documents
8) We can trade or drop shifts. Easily. Online.
9) We have two online means of verifying our schedules and modifications
10) Most pilots are wearing noise cancelling headsets (some with BT technology allowing music to be listened to, so I'm told)
11) McCafe
12) Lavs on the NG are nicer than the on Classic
13) I hear that it is easier to pick up OT than what it was when I started in 2003, when it was VERY challenging to do so.
14) No requirement now to report for duty at the hangar, in Calgary, to start all pairings
15) No requirement to show up at the airport (report, no earlier than 3 hours prior to the flight to check in for standby travel



The job isn't appreciably harder now than what it was 15 years ago. It is easier and safer, with the exception of multiple time zone travel creating challenging sleep cycles.
Another strong post by John. Fantastic!

Yet againing needs to have his voice heard, and using an example of “McCafe” as a “Win” for our pilot group.

Superstar!
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Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

Post by WeedPro2000 » Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:54 am

I’m a self-centred, narcisstic egomaniac, prone to bouts of megalomania, who suffers from an insufferable desire to be heard, and who has been under a lifelong need to talk about himself and while simultaneously ignoring the needs of others.

And, truth be told, those are my good qualities.

Now, what was your point?
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Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

Post by #37 » Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:02 am

WeedPro2000 wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:54 am
I’m a self-centred, narcisstic egomaniac, prone to bouts of megalomania, who suffers from an insufferable desire to be heard, and who has been under a lifelong need to talk about himself and while simultaneously ignoring the needs of others.

And, truth be told, those are my good qualities.

Now, what was your point?
Ha ha, that made me laugh. Definition of a pilot right there!!!!
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Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

Post by Flyingsquirrelsuck » Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:07 am

WeedPro2000 wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:54 am
I’m a self-centred, narcisstic egomaniac, prone to bouts of megalomania, who suffers from an insufferable desire to be heard, and who has been under a lifelong need to talk about himself and while simultaneously ignoring the needs of others.

And, truth be told, those are my good qualities.

Now, what was your point?
Yup. Speechless
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Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

Post by Flyingsquirrelsuck » Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:08 am

#37 wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:02 am
WeedPro2000 wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:54 am
I’m a self-centred, narcisstic egomaniac, prone to bouts of megalomania, who suffers from an insufferable desire to be heard, and who has been under a lifelong need to talk about himself and while simultaneously ignoring the needs of others.

And, truth be told, those are my good qualities.

Now, what was your point?

Ha ha, that made me laugh. Definition of a pilot right there!!!!
Most pilots I know are not like John. They care about the people they work with
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Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

Post by Demeter » Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:59 pm

Flyingsquirrelsuck wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:13 am
WeedPro2000 wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:44 am
GAF wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:18 pm
In other words, and without wanting to sound contrite, the job of flying a 737 around North America hasn't changed much. It carries the same level of technical expertise and responsibility as it always has.


I will need to disagree with this comment. When I started with WS we never went East of ywg. Our planes didn't fly RNP approaches or departures. We didnt fly ETOPS. We didn't fly from JFK to YYC to Yellowknife, back to Calgary, to Orlando, and on to Toronto all in a 4 day pairing. The route structure is much more complicated. With no area of operations all pilots are expected to know everything about every airport. Flying a -200 between Calgary, Vancouver, Kelowna, Edmonton and Winnipeg was much different than what is required of the WS pilots today. The job is much more different than "15" years ago, like you said. Much more complicated.
Adding to the list of things that have changed:

1) We don't do dive and drive NDB approaches anymore.
2) We have EGPWS technology
3) We have CPDLC on some routes/aircraft, with more to come
4) We don't need to manually calculate thrust/takeoff speed requirements from charts
5) We don't need to enter enroute winds manually from paper flight plans, it is now a simple upload
6) We don't need to enter the flight plan route manually anymore, it is now a simple uplink
7) We don't need to carry and update paper Jeppesen approach manuals (indeed all company documents, COM/FOM etc) anymore, we have an iPad with all documents
8) We can trade or drop shifts. Easily. Online.
9) We have two online means of verifying our schedules and modifications
10) Most pilots are wearing noise cancelling headsets (some with BT technology allowing music to be listened to, so I'm told)
11) McCafe
12) Lavs on the NG are nicer than the on Classic
13) I hear that it is easier to pick up OT than what it was when I started in 2003, when it was VERY challenging to do so.
14) No requirement now to report for duty at the hangar, in Calgary, to start all pairings
15) No requirement to show up at the airport (report, no earlier than 3 hours prior to the flight to check in for standby travel



The job isn't appreciably harder now than what it was 15 years ago. It is easier and safer, with the exception of multiple time zone travel creating challenging sleep cycles.
Another strong post by John. Fantastic!

Yet againing needs to have his voice heard, and using an example of “McCafe” as a “Win” for our pilot group.

Superstar!
Give it a break squirrel
I'd like to see things from your point of view but I can't seem to get my head that far up my ass.
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Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

Post by cloak » Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:45 am

GAF wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:18 pm
In other words, and without wanting to sound contrite, the job of flying a 737 around North America hasn't changed much. It carries the same level of technical expertise and responsibility as it always has.


I will need to disagree with this comment. When I started with WS we never went East of ywg. Our planes didn't fly RNP approaches or departures. We didnt fly ETOPS. We didn't fly from JFK to YYC to Yellowknife, back to Calgary, to Orlando, and on to Toronto all in a 4 day pairing. The route structure is much more complicated. With no area of operations all pilots are expected to know everything about every airport. Flying a -200 between Calgary, Vancouver, Kelowna, Edmonton and Winnipeg was much different than what is required of the WS pilots today. The job is much more different than "15" years ago, like you said. Much more complicated.
That is a fair assesment, the flying in some ways is more complex and draws more on the skills of the pilots. As another poster shared, in some ways it has become more streamlined to compensate for the added complexity. But regardless, how has the compensation changed from those days that you mentioned?
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Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

Post by Flyingsquirrelsuck » Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:39 am

Demeter wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:59 pm
Flyingsquirrelsuck wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:13 am
WeedPro2000 wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:44 am


Adding to the list of things that have changed:

1) We don't do dive and drive NDB approaches anymore.
2) We have EGPWS technology
3) We have CPDLC on some routes/aircraft, with more to come
4) We don't need to manually calculate thrust/takeoff speed requirements from charts
5) We don't need to enter enroute winds manually from paper flight plans, it is now a simple upload
6) We don't need to enter the flight plan route manually anymore, it is now a simple uplink
7) We don't need to carry and update paper Jeppesen approach manuals (indeed all company documents, COM/FOM etc) anymore, we have an iPad with all documents
8) We can trade or drop shifts. Easily. Online.
9) We have two online means of verifying our schedules and modifications
10) Most pilots are wearing noise cancelling headsets (some with BT technology allowing music to be listened to, so I'm told)
11) McCafe
12) Lavs on the NG are nicer than the on Classic
13) I hear that it is easier to pick up OT than what it was when I started in 2003, when it was VERY challenging to do so.
14) No requirement now to report for duty at the hangar, in Calgary, to start all pairings
15) No requirement to show up at the airport (report, no earlier than 3 hours prior to the flight to check in for standby travel



The job isn't appreciably harder now than what it was 15 years ago. It is easier and safer, with the exception of multiple time zone travel creating challenging sleep cycles.
Another strong post by John. Fantastic!

Yet againing needs to have his voice heard, and using an example of “McCafe” as a “Win” for our pilot group.

Superstar!
Give it a break squirrel
I'd like to see things from your point of view but I can't seem to get my head that far up my ass.
Stay classy bud. I’m just trying to stand up for pilots.

Yourself?
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WeedPro2000
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Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

Post by WeedPro2000 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:56 am

Holy cripes, if you can’t see that the McCafe thing was a light hearted remark, levity shall we say, than you are holding on much too tight. That or you are just trying too darn hard to throw poo at me, which I don’t really mind, you know, poo flinging. Poo fetish joins the list of my good qualities...

With reference to an RNP approach, it’s easier rather than harder than an NDB approach, so let’s call that one a win for the pilots.
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Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

Post by GAF » Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:24 am

With reference to an RNP approach, it’s easier rather than harder than an NDB approach, so let’s call that one a win for the pilots.



Yup. Sure. Just like all those RNP short gate approaches guys are doing info Yyc...... to the wrong parallel runway. There is much more programming to get to the RNP approach. More chance for mistakes if you're fatigued. NDB approaches were much more straightforward.
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Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

Post by cloak » Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:01 am

Programming the wrong thing can happen with any technology, but surely when fatigued flying an RNP approach is easier and safer than an NDB approach.
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Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

Post by Mostly Harmless » Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:20 am

Realitychex wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:49 pm
That being said, management is now running a vastly more complex business than was the case almost 15 years ago when I was there. One can quibble about compensation issues, but I'll guarantee they would be unable to recruit anyone of any caliber paying them anything close to what the comp levels were in 2003, (in the mid $200k range as I recall).

Yes, the 737-Max is a more complex machine than the -200, as is the 767 and as will be the 787. I don't know the details, but pay rates have significantly changed over the years. I suspect the 767 and 787 rates are and will be higher still to compensate for capacity and the lifestyle changes resulting from long haul operations.

But also keep in mind that the complexity and responsibilities of running an organization with 13,000 people, 150 aircraft (with 3 aircraft types), and annual revenues of around $4b is quite different than 15 years ago when WJ had 44 aircraft operating largely domestically, 3,400 employees and revenues of about $860m.

In other words, and without wanting to sound contrite, the job of flying a 737 around North America hasn't changed much. It carries the same level of technical expertise and responsibility as it always has had. The job of airline management, ALL airline management, has dramatically changed over the years. I'd bet they'd love to run a 44 tail aircraft fleet and have to deal with just 3,400 people. But that's not how it works in the real world.

The job is infinitely more complex and stressful, and has to be compensated as such, whether you or I like it or not.

If you don't think that amounts to much, take a look at the pics of WJ senior execs in 1996 and again 5 years later. We all looked like we'd aged 15 years. And that was running, in hindsight, a business a fraction as complex as what's been done today.

If you'd like to earn senior executive money, and take senior executive responsibility, I'm sure the door is open.
Ah yes, the "everyone else has an easy job but me" argument that "only an executive creates wealth" and all the actual people who do the work and serve the customer are a cost not an asset. That is a level of cognitive disconnect that boarders on insanity or a good dose of megalomania. Senior executives are not the only skilled workers in the world.

I am not arguing that all jobs pay an equal amount of money because not all jobs are equal. I am arguing two things: Executive pay is out of line with reality and results and, if you are going to call yourself a leader, you'd bloody well better be the one setting the example.

https://www.epi.org/publication/ceo-pay ... e-earners/
http://graphics.wsj.com/ceopay-2015/
https://hbr.org/1990/05/ceo-incentives- ... ay-but-how
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopat ... _workplace
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Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

Post by WeedPro2000 » Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:49 pm

Flyingsquirrelsuck wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:10 pm
How about the company stoping funding for PAT after we certified?

Westjet needs this union more than the pilots.
Flyingsquirrelsuck said: How about the company stoping funding for PAT after we certified? (PAT=Pilot Assistance Team)

From the Other section of FAQ's at wjpilotfacts.com:

Question: Did WestJet stop funding the pilot assistance program that paid for pilots to attend treatment centres for various addiction related issues? (Added on April 18,2018)

No, this claim is false. WestJet has always shown a strong history of supporting the Pilot Support Network, and has allowed its component programs to flourish and develop into some of the best in the industry.

I am told this claim that WJ had ceased funding the PAT and things like treatment center attendance ($25,000+) was made by the lead ALPA negotiator, GF, at an ALPA meeting back in November (IIRC) in Calgary. From what a person in attendance told me, GF said words to the effect, "If WJ cares so much about the pilots, why did they cease funding the PAT?"

Now you know WJ's version of that claim.


Bis dann,

Der FlugelAnzugMeister
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Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

Post by J Roc » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:32 pm

WeedPro2000 wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:49 pm
Flyingsquirrelsuck wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:10 pm
How about the company stoping funding for PAT after we certified?

Westjet needs this union more than the pilots.
Flyingsquirrelsuck said: How about the company stoping funding for PAT after we certified? (PAT=Pilot Assistance Team)

From the Other section of FAQ's at wjpilotfacts.com:

Question: Did WestJet stop funding the pilot assistance program that paid for pilots to attend treatment centres for various addiction related issues? (Added on April 18,2018)

No, this claim is false. WestJet has always shown a strong history of supporting the Pilot Support Network, and has allowed its component programs to flourish and develop into some of the best in the industry.

I am told this claim that WJ had ceased funding the PAT and things like treatment center attendance ($25,000+) was made by the lead ALPA negotiator, GF, at an ALPA meeting back in November (IIRC) in Calgary. From what a person in attendance told me, GF said words to the effect, "If WJ cares so much about the pilots, why did they cease funding the PAT?"

Now you know WJ's version of that claim.


Bis dann,

Der FlugelAnzugMeister
I'm curious, but was "addiction and recovery treatment" the only program that fell under the umbrella of the PSN???
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