Time to Stand Firm

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rambus
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Time to Stand Firm

Post by rambus » Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:07 pm

“WestJet has expressed to us directly and through the conciliators that they would like to extend the conciliation period. In fact, they have attached extension of conciliation as a condition to adding bargaining dates."

The conciliation period is designed to put pressure on Management to come to the bargaining table. If Westjet respected their pilots they would be at the table now…not looking for extra time to strategize. This is your opportunity to use the Canadian Labour laws, your union and your resolve to get the deal you deserve – it’s time to be treated fairly! Do not extend the conciliation period...it's your time to Stand Firm!
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Pilot23456
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Re: Time to Stand Firm

Post by Pilot23456 » Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:59 pm

This is the our opportunity to gain the respect that we deserve by bringing our pay and work rules to North American standards. We lack scope language and we need to make sure we are treated fairly and that our jobs are do not go to enrich management
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HansDietrich
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Re: Time to Stand Firm

Post by HansDietrich » Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:35 pm

What can the other pilots do? AC, Jazz, Sky, GGN, etc? What about the rest of us, not in a union, flying corporate? (Not meant to be sarcastic, but honest question)
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FL007
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Re: Time to Stand Firm

Post by FL007 » Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:34 pm

HansDietrich wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:35 pm
What can the other pilots do? AC, Jazz, Sky, GGN, etc? What about the rest of us, not in a union, flying corporate? (Not meant to be sarcastic, but honest question)
Cheer them on from what I can tell.

This battle will set the precedence in management realizing that pilots are not just disposable pawns, and that times have changed. For every airline, not just Wj.

Pilots and maintenance are the driving force behind any income for companies and it's about time we were treated with respect.

This union fight and the new duty day regs hopefully being published for good this year will change Canadian aviation for years.

Good luck! I haven't flown with a guy or girl that isn't wishing the wj pilot group the best of luck!
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Bede
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Re: Time to Stand Firm

Post by Bede » Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:02 pm

Pilot23456 wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:59 pm
This is the our opportunity to gain the respect that we deserve by bringing our pay and work rules to North American standards. We lack scope language and we need to make sure we are treated fairly and that our jobs are do not go to enrich management
Unfortunately we have scope language, but the company isn't respecting it. This is why contracts end up in the hundreds of pages.
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RidersRule
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Re: Time to Stand Firm

Post by RidersRule » Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:16 pm

Just imagine if we (westjet pilots) can raise OUR bar to the level of AC. And then SunWing and Transat can follow suit.

"Let's make aviation great again" lol

I support my union leadership 100%.
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Re: Time to Stand Firm

Post by Rezy » Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:03 am

Hopefully ALPA keeps up the offensive, the ball is in their court to decline extended conciliation, or, agree to extended conciliation if there is an agreement on Swoop flying.
The CIRB will not rule on the ULP while bargaining is ongoing with conciliators.
Keep the pressure up, WestJet pilots need the opportunity to take labor action BEFORE Swoop starts flying.
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WeedPro2000
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Re: Time to Stand Firm

Post by WeedPro2000 » Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:14 am

RidersRule wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:16 pm
Just imagine if we (westjet pilots) can raise OUR bar to the level of AC. And then SunWing and Transat can follow suit.
Wouldn't it be great if we could raise every WJ department's costs to equal that of Air Canada? Just imagine!
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RidersRule
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Re: Time to Stand Firm

Post by RidersRule » Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:26 am

WeedPro2000 wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:14 am
RidersRule wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:16 pm
Just imagine if we (westjet pilots) can raise OUR bar to the level of AC. And then SunWing and Transat can follow suit.
Wouldn't it be great if we could raise every WJ department's costs to equal that of Air Canada? Just imagine!
Wouldn't it be great if some of our pilots were worried about more then just their T4, and try to see the situation from some of their colleagues point of view.
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WeedPro2000
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Re: Time to Stand Firm

Post by WeedPro2000 » Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:04 pm

Ok, I’ve lost three airline jobs. How concerned do you think anyone was about my situation in each of those instances?

Where is your concern about the profitability of the company and the survivability of the corporation? You seem to be adopting a position that costs don’t affect anything.

If you wanted Air Canada wages and working conditions when you started your airline career, perhaps you should have concentrated your efforts on getting employed there.

But I suppose Air Canada T’s and C’s means seniority for me, so I suppose I’m not completely opposed to it, especially since their T’s and C’s means a pay cut for me.
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rambus
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Re: Time to Stand Firm

Post by rambus » Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:51 pm

Where is your concern about the profitability of the company and the survivability of the corporation?
Pilot costs account for only about 3% of the airlines total expenses...a 20% pay increase would drive that number up by .5%. That's not going make a dent in the airlines profitability. The Westjet 787 rates are 20% lower than AC's & likely the lowest in North America...
if you wanted Air Canada wages and working conditions when you started your airline career, perhaps you should have concentrated your efforts on getting employed there
Westjet is the second largest carrier in the country - operating Domestic, International & Regional routes...The colour of the tail is irrelevant - we get paid for the job we do. There hasn't been a Canadian airline yet that's gone out of business due to pilot costs.
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WeedPro2000
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Re: Time to Stand Firm

Post by WeedPro2000 » Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:56 pm

And AC T's and C's means seniority for standby travel and vacation too. Hmm, maybe you're onto something RR. Or are you suggesting we pick and choose only the good things that affect you, and not choose the things that negatively affect you?

In diversity.
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RidersRule
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Re: Time to Stand Firm

Post by RidersRule » Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:10 pm

Well if we're going to go down the "you should have went to Air Canada " road...

I came to WestJet because I didn't want to commute to YYZ for the rest of my life. But here we are...
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Flyingsquirrelsuck
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Re: Time to Stand Firm

Post by Flyingsquirrelsuck » Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:19 pm

WeedPro2000 wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:04 pm
Ok, I’ve lost three airline jobs. How concerned do you think anyone was about my situation in each of those instances?

Where is your concern about the profitability of the company and the survivability of the corporation? You seem to be adopting a position that costs don’t affect anything.

If you wanted Air Canada wages and working conditions when you started your airline career, perhaps you should have concentrated your efforts on getting employed there.

But I suppose Air Canada T’s and C’s means seniority for me, so I suppose I’m not completely opposed to it, especially since their T’s and C’s means a pay cut for me.
Westjet has used up the good will of the pilot group John. You have stated before you align your interests to the BOD and the CEO. You use the same scare tactics as our executive.

But your forgetting our pilots are standing up against an alter ego airline being started at Westjet. You probably have only good things to say about Swoop. Our pilots are asking for Industry Standard working conditions. YOS, min credit, RIGS, proper take home pay.

What is wrong with that? Your so anti pilot it’s silly.
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Re: Time to Stand Firm

Post by KAG » Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:37 pm

John, How many consecutive quarters has WJ made money? We're in fantastic financial situation. Im worried about dumb decisions being made that will effect us long term. Meanwhile we are having OUR jobs swooped from under us. Seriously if we don't fight this you will be starting over again. But for no other reason then corporate greed and spite. Sure, fight those that are trying to fight for a better wawcon and frankly our jobs. But hey blame ALPA for everything, its easier then acknowledging we've been sold out.
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Ex DC10 Driver
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Re: Time to Stand Firm

Post by Ex DC10 Driver » Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:47 pm

John,

I have to say I agree with the above posts.

Steve
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WeedPro2000
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Re: Time to Stand Firm

Post by WeedPro2000 » Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:16 am

RR, you remind me of an FA I worked with recently, who made a remark about the company being too cheap to pay for ground handlers to do the US aircraft searches. I made the comment that the three airlines she worked for prior to WJ may not have been as "cheap" but then, they aren't around anymore to discuss how "generous" they were. Here is her pedigree: Royal, JetsGo, SkyService.

In response to my quip, she replied, in a moderately 'tick' Quebecois accent: "I'm so sick of that argument. Just because they're gone, esti, don't mean they weren't good companies."

We agreed to stop our discussion there. If it had continued, I might have asked her to define just exactly what a "good" company was.

It seems that many seem to think that now that the company has reached a certain size, that we don't need to be competitive anymore. Or they think that based on the length of time they have spent in the industry, that whoever employs them now should pay them based on their experience. They'd happily kill the golden goose, only preferably after they've retired. Let's revisit the case study of the failed Canadian airlines and what happened when their revenues weren't enough to remain profitable. Or how's about the US airline industry prior to 9/11 or the US car manufacturers prior to the financial crisis 10 years ago.

I think what many of you need is a time machine so you can head back in time to when you're 25 with 2000 hours of jet time and join an airline that you know will still be around 20 years later.

I'm not against higher pay and better working conditions. But I am not foolish enough to think that we can equal Air Canada costs, when we do not have the means to generate the revenues that they do via business/first class customers and the loyalty program they have in place.

On another topic, I see that Cam made reference to the phrase "strike or lockout" in his latest negotiation update. That got me thinking of counter punches the company might unleash at the end of this conciliation process. To that thought I would add that in the latest pref bid results, there was no growth in YVR or YYC; it was all YYZ. I have to ask myself, if we lose the protected status of the stautory freeze via a strike or lockout, what do you think the base compositions looks like on the other side? I don''t know, but it is something to think about if you are a junior CA or FO in YVR or YYC.

Lastly, back to that Air Canada T's and C's. I just got my May sched, and with 5 VAC days and 11 TB days, I once again have zero days of work scheduled. How often does that happen at Air Canada that someone gets zero days of work scheduled? I still have 5 other weeks of VAC to use. I sure hate that WJPA!! Horrible negotiators!!

Tschuss Junges!
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V3-HGX
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Re: Time to Stand Firm

Post by V3-HGX » Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:38 pm

You make some good points up until the last paragraph.

Explain to me how exactly you are ensuring the competitiveness and viability of your employer by only actually operating flights when the company is forced to pay you overtime rates? If you aren't in the seat, how do you generate revenue? How does paying you $300K ensure Westjet doesn't end up like the airlines mentioned by the FA?

I would be shocked if I am the only one who is curious about this.
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Re: Time to Stand Firm

Post by WeedPro2000 » Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:27 pm

Hi V3.

The company isn't forced to pay me OT in our innovative system. As it stands now, I have no flying scheduled for May. On the 11 time banked days that I received in May, I will have 4.5 hours of banked time (at straight time rates) withdrawn from my time bank to cover the flying. As it stands, my time bank is at its maximum right now, which is 50 hours of straight time. I could have that time paid out in cash, but I'd rather have the time removed in days off.

Any OT I earn goes first to replenish my time bank. If I work 10 hours of OT, then 15 hours of straight time goes into my time bank, up to that maximum of 50 hours. After the time bank is full, the OT then gets paid out to me at 1.5 * my hourly rate. Time bank days are only awarded when there is essentially an excess of pilots versus flying for the month. This usually happens in the shoulder months like April through June and September through November.

When the time bank is paid out in days awarded, it also makes that money 4.5 hours of straight time elgible for ESP and profit share, so it's a little top up on the OT rate.

OT is typically hard to get in May, as most are finished their vacations etc, but by having an empty schedule, and not picking road blocking pairings that come up for later in the month, I'm usually available to pick up the 4 and 5 day pairings that typically get broken up when no one wants or can pick them up. I'm kind of like an unpaid reserve, or IROP specialist.

But May is also a great month to go jump off a bridge in Idaho so choices choices choices.

Bis später, Jungs!
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avtutor
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Re: Time to Stand Firm

Post by avtutor » Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:24 pm

John, you make some good points and seem to have the OT system working to your advantage. I don’t bedgrudge you at all for that; it’s a free market system and if you are smart enough to make it fit your needs I say fill yer boots.

I can also sympathize with the fear one would have of overtaxing the company based on your prior experience with company closures. I have not been through that and hope we never have to. There are others here that have been through it but still see that change has to occur. Change is something we are always told we have to accept, but now the shoe is on the other foot it doesn’t seem to be going over so well.

Correct me if I am wrong but it appears you think it is the pilot’s demands that will ultimately be the company’s undoing, where I believe it is the execs that are lining their pockets on the backs of us. It’s a revolving door up there; that can’t be cheap. And not to knock your impressive salary, but that is chump change for the average VP or Director. They wouldn’t even get out of bed for it. We are simply asking for industry standard so we can have a career here. Is that really that unreasonable? I don’t think so. It’s not as if we don’t earn our keep. We will not be the cause of the demise of WJ. Bad decisions at the top will take care of that. ALPA can be a good thing for the management, if they choose to work with them. The negotiations so far have largely consisted of time wasting tactics. They think we are a joke. We, who largely built up the company by going above and beyond. That just isn’t right, and a man has to make a stand at some point.

Everyone has a right to their opinion, and I am not trying to change your mind, but you could be just as effective as a voice for positive, fiscally responsible change at WJ to the betterment of us all. Just food for thought.

Cheers mate.
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Last edited by avtutor on Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

RidersRule
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Re: Time to Stand Firm

Post by RidersRule » Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:43 pm

Weedpro,

I don't think asking for a few things that are pretty much industry standard will bankrupt this great company.

1). YOS. Some off us wouldn't be commuting across the country if it didn't take 20 plus years to get to the top of the captain scale. I'm not sure you u derstand that as you have never experienced it

2). Something has to be done about our LTD and STD. I'm on pace to pay $6900 this year. Air Canada's is paid in full. Even Jazz gets theirs paid at 50%.

3). Some sort of trip and duty rigs. Hell even Canadian north has this. I'm tired of getting my sched and seeing a four day 48 hour POS worth 11 hours knowing that I am going to get a four day 30 hour to make up for it.

We give the company plenty of extra already. DH outside the block. Grooming. Security checks.

Why does getting a few improvements that could make a difference in my life and your colleagues life scare you so much. We are not Royal, JetsGo, or C3.
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jjj
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Re: Time to Stand Firm

Post by jjj » Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:53 pm

Weedpro,

You make some excellent observations. Truth be told not everything is totally bad around here and not everything the WJPA came up with is a dirty pig.

However,

What looms with swoop is the goal posts move yet again for many who are junior to you. If the company succeeds, many will never enjoy a compensation like yours.

I have done very well here too. I’m fighting for the success of my peers.

As far as the failures of airlines on your resume - it wasn’t pilot cost that brought any of those carriers down.

Cheers mate.

I work hard and I make a lot. I want the same for those lower on the list than me.

JJJ
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Flyingsquirrelsuck
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Re: Time to Stand Firm

Post by Flyingsquirrelsuck » Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:13 am

Read the last 3 posts John. Everyone is not out to ruin the company, our pilot group is proven in loyalty, work ethic etc.

You just don’t want your little OT scheme to go away. I will say the recent WJPA was partly responsible for the concessionary agreement we have now.
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yycflyguy
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Re: Time to Stand Firm

Post by yycflyguy » Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:09 am

The similarities to what AC pilots went through with the introduction of rouge is remarkable. As an outsider, I'd only say that if you don't stop it now, it'll never happen and will be a whipsaw mechanism for future negotiations. Nothing good comes to a pilot group with B Scale WAWCON.

I have also read that many envy the CBA ACPA has with AC. Do NOT aim for that contract. You need to look at other airlines and compare yourselves to Southwest, Delta, American For Conditions and what some Asian carriers are offering on contract for pure $ compensation. Please do better than our CBA. Augmentation, fatigue, multiple pensions, overtime, reserve, flat pay, two airlines within one. There is a long list of what is wrong with our CBA.

The comment has been made that Westjet has never had a losing quarter (pilot CASM does not make or break any airline), there is a pilot shortage, the economy is good, there is relatively stable world peace. If you can't make long term gains now, it'll never happen.

Good luck. I hope your group does better than what ACPA has done for the aviation profession.
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PostmasterGeneral
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Re: Time to Stand Firm

Post by PostmasterGeneral » Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:21 pm

What are “trip rigs?” Pardon my ignorance.
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