Time to Stand Firm

[aerobod]

A more conventional contract could be achieved by moving ESPP, RSUs and Stock Options to base wage - 40% base pay increase but virtually no company performance incentives, much the same as the average airline.

[WeedPro2000]

And if, as YVR lurker suggests, that ALPA would be looking for 25-30% per hour pay increase, above and beyond things like better YOS and and a min credit per day, then that is destined for failure, and could only be seen as a means to force a failed negotiation, and a resulting strike vote.

The MEC published survey of US carriers has brought expectations to an unrealistic point. But I think that was the purpose. Make the pilots feel underpaid, and make them angry. Force them to want a strike, because there was no way that ALPA was ever going to honour the promises they made to the pilot group during the certification drive. Expectations are way too high.

If a pension is off the table, then I think what the companhy would submit under a Final Offer Selection scenario would be something like I suggested above. An improvement to YOS (not 1:1), an improvement to min credit per day, company paid benefits premiums, and a modest 5-10 per cent increase in pay the first year, and something in the 3-5 percent range in the second and third years. An arbitrator is going to look at the T4's of this pilot group and will immediately realize that we are not underpaid. We just have some pilots who have cash flow/cash management problems.

Additionally, the company will likely offer some kind of deal with Swoop that would see our pilots with access to the Swoop flight deck. What that looks like, who knows.

That's how I see it.

[mbav8r]

And if, as YVR lurker suggests, that ALPA would be looking for 25-30% per hour pay increase, above and beyond things like better YOS and and a min credit per day, then that is destined for failure, and could only be seen as a means to force a failed negotiation, and a resulting strike vote.

The MEC published survey of US carriers has brought expectations to an unrealistic point. But I think that was the purpose. Make the pilots feel underpaid, and make them angry. Force them to want a strike, because there was no way that ALPA was ever going to honour the promises they made to the pilot group during the certification drive. Expectations are way too high.

If a pension is off the table, then I think what the companhy would submit under a Final Offer Selection scenario would be something like I suggested above. An improvement to YOS (not 1:1), an improvement to min credit per day, company paid benefits premiums, and a modest 5-10 per cent increase in pay the first year, and something in the 3-5 percent range in the second and third years. An arbitrator is going to look at the T4's of this pilot group and will immediately realize that we are not underpaid. We just have some pilots who have cash flow/cash management problems.

Additionally, the company will likely offer some kind of deal with Swoop that would see our pilots with access to the Swoop flight deck. What that looks like, who knows.

That's how I see it.

Weedpro, a couple questions if you don’t mind and maybe a comment or two.
First, how is it you think that you will end up with final offer selection?
My opinion on that, when it was forced on ACPA, there was a majority PC government, now you have a union friendly NDP majority and I doubt much appetite to go against their long held values.
Do you realize in bargaining when you start at 5-10% year 1 and 3-5% 2nd and 3rd year, what you’ll end up with is half or less?
My opinion, you do know that and this is you negotiating on behalf of the company.
T4s don’t pay the bills, money in your pocket does this.
I’m just an innocent bystander who’s been Swooped by SR and GGN, you’re completely delusional if you don’t think that is what’s going on. It’ll start with a bit of work, just some “underperforming” routes and one day you’ll wake up, Swoop will be the same size as the much smaller mainline, possibly applying for 787 on the OC and many of your colleagues are held back or forced to transfer, then what.
Last question, can you not learn from others mistakes?
Anyhow, best of luck to you guys

[tbaylx]

And if, as YVR lurker suggests, that ALPA would be looking for 25-30% per hour pay increase, above and beyond things like better YOS and and a min credit per day, then that is destined for failure, and could only be seen as a means to force a failed negotiation, and a resulting strike vote.

The MEC published survey of US carriers has brought expectations to an unrealistic point. But I think that was the purpose. Make the pilots feel underpaid, and make them angry. Force them to want a strike, because there was no way that ALPA was ever going to honour the promises they made to the pilot group during the certification drive. Expectations are way too high.

If a pension is off the table, then I think what the companhy would submit under a Final Offer Selection scenario would be something like I suggested above. An improvement to YOS (not 1:1), an improvement to min credit per day, company paid benefits premiums, and a modest 5-10 per cent increase in pay the first year, and something in the 3-5 percent range in the second and third years. An arbitrator is going to look at the T4's of this pilot group and will immediately realize that we are not underpaid. We just have some pilots who have cash flow/cash management problems.

Additionally, the company will likely offer some kind of deal with Swoop that would see our pilots with access to the Swoop flight deck. What that looks like, who knows.

That's how I see it.

Weedpro, a couple questions if you don’t mind and maybe a comment or two.
First, how is it you think that you will end up with final offer selection?
My opinion on that, when it was forced on ACPA, there was a majority PC government, now you have a union friendly NDP majority and I doubt much appetite to go against their long held values.
Do you realize in bargaining when you start at 5-10% year 1 and 3-5% 2nd and 3rd year, what you’ll end up with is half or less?
My opinion, you do know that and this is you negotiating on behalf of the company.
T4s don’t pay the bills, money in your pocket does this.
I’m just an innocent bystander who’s been Swooped by SR and GGN, you’re completely delusional if you don’t think that is what’s going on. It’ll start with a bit of work, just some “underperforming” routes and one day you’ll wake up, Swoop will be the same size as the much smaller mainline, possibly applying for 787 on the OC and many of your colleagues are held back or forced to transfer, then what.
Last question, can you not learn from others mistakes?
Anyhow, best of luck to you guys

It's not a provincially regulated industry. There isn't any federal NDP majority, though i'd concede the Trudeau liberals are left leaning. Either way it's legislated back to work and a imposed contract regardless of PC majority or not.
His point is that if you think you can get a 30% cost increase to the company negotiated in then you ought to consider what exactly a Pyrrhic victory is and if that's really a good plan. He makes a good point that perhaps the MEC ought to be careful in setting unrealistic expectations.

[mbav8r]

You’re correct, I’m not really sure what made me think it was NDP, either way I doubt they would legislate them back to work, what possible justification could they give, cheap airfare? Well I guess I just answered my own question, of course anything for a cheap trip.

[Flyingsquirrelsuck]

John, with all due respect, why do we need to settle for a “good enough” or “just get it done” contract and get more next time ideology?

That’s what we have done for years. We are a proven employee group, hard working, loyal and engaged.

Our YOS is a joke, how is our fatigue management FRMS program coming along? Our company says/promises one thing, then dose the opposite.

This is about respect

1:1 YOS
Min daily credit
RIGS
ST and LTD payments
Proper scheduling
SCOPE

These are the starting points John. The company since September has NEVER brought a proposal to the bargaining table. The company has brought our pilots to consiliation and possibility a work interruption.

It’s time to bring our group to a industry standard. There is nothing wrong with that demand.

Hi Squirrel. In my 20+ years as an airline employee, "industry standard" means failed airlines. Three failed airlines. If what you are suggesting is removing competitiveness and flexibility from your airline, well, thar be dragons.

I'm not sure how your mental health is, but perhaps you should look into that if you want a contract to bring you "respect". That is just a very odd statement to make. You sound like the LGBTQ community who want to force me to give them "respect" by using one of 29+ pronouns like "ze" and "zir". WTF? And I don't think anyone can be forced to show you respect via the terms (financial or otherwise) of a contract. Come to think of it, if you want my respect, from on "known" person to one "anonymous" poster on a public internet forum, why don't you go back to your post and clean up the grammar and syntax? I'd appreciate that. The edit finction works fine on this forum. If english is not your primary language, then I apologize. My German written and spoken composition would be worse than your English so, so there's that.

And I'm not sure what "proper" scheduling" means, outside of some form of min daily credit per day. Could you clarify? The same for "RIGS" as you call them; is that the same as some form of min daily credit?

And to answer your question about getting a contract, well, my perspective is probably different from yours. Not everything needs to, or will be addressed in this agreement. Especially if it goes to Final Offer Selection. Negotiate reasonable improvements now, and work on more next time. If the sum total of all your desired work conditions represents an immediate 30-40% increase in pilot labour costs to the company, well, good luck with that.

Well I guess I need to simplify things for you John.

Respect=Industry Standard Contract

We are on the same level as everyone else. How dose Air Canada, Rouge make money paying and supporting their pilot group industry standard. How about all the other major airlines in North America.

Prove to me that industry standard leads to bankruptcy? You can’t because it’s a false statement.

Did you bother reading my post? I didn’t even mention a pay increase. Your pathetic

[Mach1]

A more conventional contract could be achieved by moving ESPP, RSUs and Stock Options to base wage - 40% base pay increase but virtually no company performance incentives, much the same as the average airline.

What makes you think everyone who works there wants this solution? Perhaps many people who went to work there actually liked the at risk pay because it can generate a good deal of wealth and gives one control over their money in a way a pension does not. I really can't understand why people who wanted a pension went to work for a company that didn't have a pension... why didn't they go to work for the company that does have a pension?

That said, I'm sure there are creative ways to improve the pay.

You’re correct, I’m not really sure what made me think it was NDP, either way I doubt they would legislate them back to work, what possible justification could they give, cheap airfare? Well I guess I just answered my own question, of course anything for a cheap trip.

I wouldn't trust the Liberals (especially under the current Prime Minister) any further than I can comfortably spit out a rat. Liberal's have a long history of saying one thing and doing the opposite.

[Transonic]

Air Canada needed labour peace in order to secure financing for their ambitious growth plan. So they sweetened their pilot contract to buy 10 years of peace.

Even now Air Canada's credit rating is less than WestJet's. To get a decent interest rate on debt, Air Canada is required to put up owned aircraft as collateral. Whereas WestJet gets a similar rate but with no collateral thanks to our excellent credit rating, a rarity in the airline world.

As of today, WJA trades at a P/E ratio of 9.55, whereas AC trades at 3.2.

Can you guess how to ruin the above? How about a strike that costs 10-12 million in lost revenue a day! The BOD and CEO are vested to preserve investor wealth and will NOT allow a strike to happen. They will however test the resolve of the pilots to truly see how serious we are. Given that the general adjective used to describe our relationship with management is betrayal, I think it's a real threat.

There is one simple solution. We fly the two Swoop tails on June 20th.

There is also the outstanding ULP regarding scope. Now that conciliation is over, the CIRB will investigate. A liberal government does not need to legislate us back to work, they merely need to rule that Swoop flying is ours.

Vote YES to preserve your career and future.

Vote NO to be whipsawed into a lost decade of zero upgrades and progression. (Reference Qantas pilots)

[Snagmaster E]

Well said.

[Rowdy]

A strike vote doesn't mean a strike. It simply is a show of support for the MEC/negotiations and another piece in the toolbox.

The BOD will very quickly push the execs to negotiate fairly if the pilot group voted yes.

Sucks that they are taking such a stance.. but I guess they underestimate the resolve of the pilot group.

[tbaylx]

A strike vote most certainly means you had better be prepared to go on strike.
Don't think because your MEC is selling it as a "tool" that there isn't any chance your going to be out of work. It's also not a get whatever you want and the board rolls over card either. It can cut both ways, if you come back with a 60% mandate you're going to see what that means.

[DropTanks]

A strike vote most certainly means you had better be prepared to go on strike.
Don't think because your MEC is selling it as a "tool" that there isn't any chance your going to be out of work. It's also not a get whatever you want and the board rolls over card either. It can cut both ways, if you come back with a 60% mandate you're going to see what that means.

Exactly why a 100% strike mandate is crucial! Thanks!

[Transonic]

A strike vote most certainly means you had better be prepared to go on strike.
Don't think because your MEC is selling it as a "tool" that there isn't any chance your going to be out of work. It's also not a get whatever you want and the board rolls over card either. It can cut both ways, if you come back with a 60% mandate you're going to see what that means.

Upon certification, ALPA membership was around 64%. Thanks to Swoop, I'm told we sit in the low 90%.

The majority of WestJet pilots see Swoop as a threat. If WestJet can blatantly disregarded section 10 of our agreement, then they can easily do the same again and send WestJet painted 787s to Swoop's OC. In a possibly scenario, If you want to fly the 787 then retire from WestJet, an Alberta Partnership, and join Swoop.

Let me remind us of the wording of section 10. It is very clear to understand the spirit of the agreement. What WestJet has done is morally wrong. There is NO loyalty or respect for the pilots.

"All aircraft operated by WestJet, WestJet Encore, its subsidiaries, affiliates and/or any entity in which WestJet has effective and/or operational control must be flown by pilots as listed in the WPDL."

Nothing is assured unless you vote YES.

[Legacy]

John, you keep on mentioning the 3 failed airlines that you previously worked for. Care to share which ones? If any of them were run by that crooked LeBlanc, please don’t reference it anymore in your arguments. Anyone that ever worked for that crook should have done their research on him. His companies were destined to fail. Surely you are not inferring that WestJet be in the same class as Royal or Jetsgo.

[yyc757]

There is only one way to stand up to a bully. This bully is threatening our careers. This bully has already hired OTS pilots. This bully has set a date of first flight. This bully has no interest in integrity. This bully is blinded by ego, power and the desire to be in control. This bully will gladly fire us all and hire at Swoop. This bully will reward swoop pilots with the 787.

So how do you deal with a bully?

Neville Chamberlain: "peace for our time".

That didn't work out so well.

Don't be a Chamberlain.

Be a Churchill.

[cloak]

A strike vote most certainly means you had better be prepared to go on strike...

Doesn't a strike vote also mean that the MEC can legally call for a strike without any further discussions with the membership? It is all in their hand (and ALPA board)?

[WF9F]

You've got my support and many more at AC.
If Swoop is dependant on reduced pilot wages to make it work then it shouldn't start. We have the Cancer called Rouge and trust me they will take your Mainline flying and once it's gone it's gone!! Then all you guys working the steady diet of OT will finally get it, as that extra flying will be drastically reduced...

You deserve a contract with competitive wages,working conditions and all flying done by WJ Pilots.I believe you are on the right path to getting it.
Vote YES and support your MEC.

[skybaron]

You've got my support and many more at AC.
If Swoop is dependant on reduced pilot wages to make it work then it shouldn't start. We have the Cancer called Rouge and trust me they will take your Mainline flying and once it's gone it's gone!! Then all you guys working the steady diet of OT will finally get it, as that extra flying will be drastically reduced...

You deserve a contract with competitive wages,working conditions and all flying done by WJ Pilots.I believe you are on the right path to getting it.
Vote YES and support your MEC.

Well said.



Question:

Are Encore Pilots also following suit with WJ Pilots? The more that stand together within the organization, the greater the effect.

[Bede]

Question:
Are Encore Pilots also following suit with WJ Pilots? The more that stand together within the organization, the greater the effect.

I don't believe that Encore pilots are in a legal strike position.

I've talked to a lot of Encore pilots; nothing but respect for those guys. We're going to do everything in our power to ensure that WJ flying is done by WJ pilots- and that includes Encore pilots.

[Rezy]

Encore Pilots are not in a legal strike position and cannot take any labor action, as they are a separate union and company.