Time to Stand Firm

Discuss topics relating to Westjet.

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Dry Guy
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Re: Time to Stand Firm

Post by Dry Guy »

But Westjet mainline hires OTS pilots too. If all Westjet flying needs to be done by Westjet pilots and that includes Encore should we have gone on strike to stop OTS hires at mainline? So all Westjet flying would be done by Westjet pilots from Encore?
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Benwa
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Re: Time to Stand Firm

Post by Benwa »

OTS WJ pilots are on the WJPDL below current Encore pilots... All FOs. No direct-entry Captain positions...

Don't see any similarities to the SWOOP situation.
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Victory
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Re: Time to Stand Firm

Post by Victory »

So you're fine if Swoop pilots just go on the list at the bottom?
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RidersRule
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Re: Time to Stand Firm

Post by RidersRule »

Victory wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:22 pm So you're fine if Swoop pilots just go on the list at the bottom?
Being that it's such a mess I think most guys would be ok if they went to bottom of the list right seat on the Q.
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Jimmy2
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Re: Time to Stand Firm

Post by Jimmy2 »

Being bottom of the list doesn't mean bottom of the company. There are guys that are 737 f/o's at mainline that are below right seat on the Q on the list.

It might be a viable career decision to go to Swoop at the bottom of the list (behind current Encore pilots) and accrue 737 time. While also getting a position at Westjet mainline one day if you can't get that overseas position you had your eye on.
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Crash_PadYYC
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Re: Time to Stand Firm

Post by Crash_PadYYC »

RidersRule wrote: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:20 pm
PostmasterGeneral wrote: Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:21 pm What are “trip rigs?” Pardon my ignorance.
In a nutshell it's a minimum guarantee of pay for your time away from base.

For example, You might have a hour of pay for every four hours of your trip.

So the 48 hour POS that we have at WestJet is only worth the hours that we fly, since we have no Trip, Duty, or min daily credits. It's about 11 or 12 hours of credit. But if for example, you had a 1:4 trip rig, the 80 hours you are gone on the pairing would be worth about 20 hours.
The new 52 hour layover in YQG is a great example :roll:
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flyinhigh
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Re: Time to Stand Firm

Post by flyinhigh »

Jimmy2 wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:56 am Being bottom of the list doesn't mean bottom of the company. There are guys that are 737 f/o's at mainline that are below right seat on the Q on the list.

It might be a viable career decision to go to Swoop at the bottom of the list (behind current Encore pilots) and accrue 737 time. While also getting a position at Westjet mainline one day if you can't get that overseas position you had your eye on.
If this all shakes out the way many see/hope, the Swoop flying will be done by WestJet pilots on our department list. That means that WestJet pilots will take the flying from the current guys that excepted the position at Swoop. In turn there position will be gone, or if they wish, they can join Encore in the right seat and be put on our list at the bottom, Right where they belong.
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jjj
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Re: Time to Stand Firm

Post by jjj »

flyinhigh,

Let's be clear. WestJet pilots are not taking anything from anyone. They are retaining flying that we do already.

You are correct that we will have a spot for the successful OTS Swoop pilots that pass screening. The rejects will have to go back from whence they came.


JJJ
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The Tenth Man
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Re: Time to Stand Firm

Post by The Tenth Man »

WeedPro2000 wrote: Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:58 am And if, as YVR lurker suggests, that ALPA would be looking for 25-30% per hour pay increase, above and beyond things like better YOS and and a min credit per day, then that is destined for failure, and could only be seen as a means to force a failed negotiation, and a resulting strike vote.

The MEC published survey of US carriers has brought expectations to an unrealistic point. But I think that was the purpose. Make the pilots feel underpaid, and make them angry. Force them to want a strike, because there was no way that ALPA was ever going to honour the promises they made to the pilot group during the certification drive. Expectations are way too high.

If a pension is off the table, then I think what the companhy would submit under a Final Offer Selection scenario would be something like I suggested above. An improvement to YOS (not 1:1), an improvement to min credit per day, company paid benefits premiums, and a modest 5-10 per cent increase in pay the first year, and something in the 3-5 percent range in the second and third years. An arbitrator is going to look at the T4's of this pilot group and will immediately realize that we are not underpaid. We just have some pilots who have cash flow/cash management problems.

Additionally, the company will likely offer some kind of deal with Swoop that would see our pilots with access to the Swoop flight deck. What that looks like, who knows.

That's how I see it.
April 25, 2018.
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The Tenth Man
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Re: Time to Stand Firm

Post by The Tenth Man »

yyc757 wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 1:18 pm There is only one way to stand up to a bully. This bully is threatening our careers. This bully has already hired OTS pilots. This bully has set a date of first flight. This bully has no interest in integrity. This bully is blinded by ego, power and the desire to be in control. This bully will gladly fire us all and hire at Swoop. This bully will reward swoop pilots with the 787.

So how do you deal with a bully?

Neville Chamberlain: "peace for our time".

That didn't work out so well.

Don't be a Chamberlain.

Be a Churchill.
More bad advice.
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The Tenth Man
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Re: Time to Stand Firm

Post by The Tenth Man »

WeedPro2000 wrote: Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:22 pm
rambus wrote: Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:07 pm “WestJet has expressed to us directly and through the conciliators that they would like to extend the conciliation period. In fact, they have attached extension of conciliation as a condition to adding bargaining dates."

The conciliation period is designed to put pressure on Management to come to the bargaining table. If Westjet respected their pilots they would be at the table now…not looking for extra time to strategize. This is your opportunity to use the Canadian Labour laws, your union and your resolve to get the deal you deserve – it’s time to be treated fairly! Do not extend the conciliation period...it's your time to Stand Firm!
Another interpretation of ALPA’s refusal to extend the conciliation date is that, similar to the Austrian-Hungarian empure’s demands to Serbia in July 1914 (most unpalatable was the participation of A.-H. officials in the required Serbian investigation of anti-monarchist organizations) this ensures that the negotiations fail.

If the negotiation fails, this creates the conditions for a summer time organized protest and associated work stoppage, whereas extending conciliation might delay the possible work slow down to a less effective time period.

Also, a mediated contract of whatever form, relieves the union of the high expectations that they have created in the memberships of large contract increases. They can always later claim that “their hands were tied” by the process (that they engendered).

If they were given more time to negotiate, as the conciliators recommended, they would have no cover under which to hide. Whatever shortcomings in the first CBA, they would have all been on ALPA.

Additionally, a speeded up process, though it might not get the best CBA for the members, has the advantage of getting “a” CBA in place, which then starts the flow of dues from WJ ALPA MEC to Herndon, VA.

I’m not a member, so my opinion should be taken for what it’s worth, but were it me, I’d want to know what exactly I’m supposed to strike over before I picked up a sign.

For instance, has ALPA secured agreement with WestJet on section 22 Seniority yet? Scheduling? Swoop? Pay? What exactly is left to negotiate?

In diversity, meinen Genossen,

Herr VierTausendSiebenHundertNeunundNeunzig
rambus: bad advice.

WeedPro2000: good advice.
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The Tenth Man
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Re: Time to Stand Firm

Post by The Tenth Man »

Mach1 wrote: Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:14 pm
WeedPro2000 wrote: Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:22 pm Another interpretation of ALPA’s refusal to extend the conciliation date is that, similar to the Austrian-Hungarian empure’s demands to Serbia in July 1914 (most unpalatable was the participation of A.-H. officials in the required Serbian investigation of anti-monarchist organizations) this ensures that the negotiations fail.
They will still be facepalming this 300 years from now.
Image

WeedPro2000 wrote: Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:22 pm If the negotiation fails, this creates the conditions for a summer time organized protest and associated work stoppage, whereas extending conciliation might delay the possible work slow down to a less effective time period.
Or, the timing is to put as much pressure on the company as possible to stop moving forward with Swoop's launch without WJ pilots in those seats. You know this but denial isn't just a river in Egypt.
WeedPro2000 wrote: Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:22 pm Also, a mediated contract of whatever form, relieves the union of the high expectations that they have created in the memberships of large contract increases. They can always later claim that “their hands were tied” by the process (that they engendered).

If they were given more time to negotiate, as the conciliators recommended, they would have no cover under which to hide. Whatever shortcomings in the first CBA, they would have all been on ALPA.
I find it interesting that you only ever appropriate blame on one party. I'm pretty sure there are two parties at a negotiating table and both must accept responsibility for their own behaviours. Unless, of course, you think everything is one sided. Tribalism has been making a real comeback lately.
WeedPro2000 wrote: Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:22 pm In diversity, meinen Genossen,

Herr VierTausendSiebenHundertNeunundNeunzig
Interesting that you choose the language most famously associated with Fascism. A message of some sort about your personal way of thinking?

Anyway... You have some good posts, and some bad posts but as far as this one goes, I think Cartman sums it up best Image
Mach1: Weaker. Losing speed. Losing altitude.
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The Tenth Man
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Re: Time to Stand Firm

Post by The Tenth Man »

KAG wrote: Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:37 pm John, How many consecutive quarters has WJ made money? We're in fantastic financial situation. Im worried about dumb decisions being made that will effect us long term. Meanwhile we are having OUR jobs swooped from under us. Seriously if we don't fight this you will be starting over again. But for no other reason then corporate greed and spite. Sure, fight those that are trying to fight for a better wawcon and frankly our jobs. But hey blame ALPA for everything, its easier then acknowledging we've been sold out.
KAG: Means well.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Time to Stand Firm

Post by goingnowherefast »

Most people stopped paying attention to you and your alter egos a long time ago.
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dialdriver
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Re: Time to Stand Firm

Post by dialdriver »

goingnowherefast wrote: Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:48 pm Most people stopped paying attention to you and your alter egos a long time ago.
Yup
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