Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

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schnitzel2k3
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

B757FO wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 12:40 pm
tbaylx wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 12:25 pm
B757FO wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 11:07 am

Oh man your way off here brother... although over the years.....
....
Guess where the other 160 pilots for the 10 airplanes are coming....mine mine mine mine
Image

All of you sound the same with your idle threats. At the end of the day if you make it uncomfortable, those guys will take their type ratings elsewhere...not a big deal for either party.

Did you guys manage to get the flying at par for mainline wages? No? Technically management has won because you are doing exactly what they want. Fighting to get those 37s back at whatever cost. It'll end up another rung for the 100s of Q4 drivers at the lower wage structure, exactly where I thought it would.

Focus on your mediations, get your agreement straight. Get the salaries organized for those 87s and then worry about collecting Swoop under your umbrella again.

Horse before the carriage.

S.
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tbaylx
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by tbaylx »

B757FO wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 12:40 pm
tbaylx wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 12:25 pm
B757FO wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 11:07 am

Oh man your way off here brother... although over the years mbav8r and I didn’t agree on all points I certainly would invite him over for a beer and discussion. More than I would say for your comments here tbaylx.

Whoever you say you know I can assure you they will not be accepting of you with open arms. I certainly won’t be. But feel free to say it’s your airline. Words means nothing and I and 2000 Westjet and encore pilots built it. You took the easy way around 2000 pilots. It’s funny your taking a position of power in your conversation like you’ve won something. Big difference here is you literally took a job away from me and everyone else here at our airline. So if you think you will have a warm welcome I assure you I’ll be leading the information highway of who you are for the world to see. You think you will be a swoop only flightdeck? Think again. Don’t worry I know we have a stellar pilot assistance team to help with your depression when you see just how rough it’s going to get for you guys here. But hey welcome to our airline bud. Feel free to write me an email dude anytime and we can meet in yhm anytime you like.
We took jobs for a startup airline that were offered to the street. I can appreciate you had an internal fight going on, but that was your business and still is.
Swoop is a startup, no took away jobs from you as they were newly created positions offered to the street for a new airline. Swoop was and continues to be a separate airline operated under a separate AOC, much like Encore. You can take that argument up with your MEC and management how you got there. Good to see that future positions will be able to be filled by the guys at Encore and WJ if they so desire.
I've been around longer than most, not hard to figure out who I am, it's not a great secret. Thanks for the welcome and the assistance offer, but I'm sure I'll be just fine operating with whomever I end up working with. Have yourself a good weekend :wink:
Guess where the other 160 pilots for the 10 airplanes are coming from this year bud?? Our airline. I again assure you it won’t be a nice place for any of you. But ya you try to justify that we left the jobs on the table. You probably all convinced yourselves of it. Tell me why you needed armed security at your groundschools if it’s your flying? Nothing bad going on??? Hmmm. Don’t try to spin it dude. Your a bottom feeder. Your self convincing attitude that you’ve done “nothing” wrong is just nuts. Don’t worry as GGG said before in ignite 20 we’ll make it uncomfortable for those who don’t belong so they will leave. That’s a quote from OUR previous ceo.. but you don’t know that because you don’t work for our airline. But guess what... your so called airline... is now ours. And so is all the flying and expansion.
You realize all the OTS guys you’re going to make so uncomfortable are the Chief Pilot, training managers, ACP’s and line indoc/check pilots at Swoop right? Not sure how uncomfortable they’re gonna feel, I suspect they’ll do their jobs like the professionals they are instead of taking it all personally. Perhaps you could try and do the same.
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by Transonic »

tbaylx wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 1:48 pm
B757FO wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 12:40 pm
tbaylx wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 12:25 pm

We took jobs for a startup airline that were offered to the street. I can appreciate you had an internal fight going on, but that was your business and still is.
Swoop is a startup, no took away jobs from you as they were newly created positions offered to the street for a new airline. Swoop was and continues to be a separate airline operated under a separate AOC, much like Encore. You can take that argument up with your MEC and management how you got there. Good to see that future positions will be able to be filled by the guys at Encore and WJ if they so desire.
I've been around longer than most, not hard to figure out who I am, it's not a great secret. Thanks for the welcome and the assistance offer, but I'm sure I'll be just fine operating with whomever I end up working with. Have yourself a good weekend :wink:
Guess where the other 160 pilots for the 10 airplanes are coming from this year bud?? Our airline. I again assure you it won’t be a nice place for any of you. But ya you try to justify that we left the jobs on the table. You probably all convinced yourselves of it. Tell me why you needed armed security at your groundschools if it’s your flying? Nothing bad going on??? Hmmm. Don’t try to spin it dude. Your a bottom feeder. Your self convincing attitude that you’ve done “nothing” wrong is just nuts. Don’t worry as GGG said before in ignite 20 we’ll make it uncomfortable for those who don’t belong so they will leave. That’s a quote from OUR previous ceo.. but you don’t know that because you don’t work for our airline. But guess what... your so called airline... is now ours. And so is all the flying and expansion.
You realize all the OTS guys you’re going to make so uncomfortable are the Chief Pilot, training managers, ACP’s and line indoc/check pilots at Swoop right? Not sure how uncomfortable they’re gonna feel, I suspect they’ll do their jobs like the professionals they are instead of taking it all personally. Perhaps you could try and do the same.
Is there really a need for a duplicate structure now?

There are plenty of loyal pilots at WestJet who would love to occupy those positions. Our Flt-Ops managers too would love to see their friends promoted into new positions.
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by Transonic »

schnitzel2k3 wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 1:00 pm
B757FO wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 12:40 pm
tbaylx wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 12:25 pm
....
Guess where the other 160 pilots for the 10 airplanes are coming....mine mine mine mine
Image

All of you sound the same with your idle threats. At the end of the day if you make it uncomfortable, those guys will take their type ratings elsewhere...not a big deal for either party.

Did you guys manage to get the flying at par for mainline wages? No? Technically management has won because you are doing exactly what they want. Fighting to get those 37s back at whatever cost. It'll end up another rung for the 100s of Q4 drivers at the lower wage structure, exactly where I thought it would.

Focus on your mediations, get your agreement straight. Get the salaries organized for those 87s and then worry about collecting Swoop under your umbrella again.

Horse before the carriage.

S.
Of course you, NCP/Weedpro, would rather focus on 787 wages.

The majority of your previous predictions from all personalities have been wrong. Remember, you suggested a common employer complaint would happen and it would fail. The only one that was right was the lockout.
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Last edited by Transonic on Sat May 26, 2018 2:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by mbav8r »

tbaylx wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 1:48 pm [quote=B757FO post_id=<a href="tel:1040911">1040911</a> time=<a href="tel:1527363653">1527363653</a> user_id=5136]
[quote=tbaylx post_id=<a href="tel:1040908">1040908</a> time=<a href="tel:1527362757">1527362757</a> user_id=1736]
[quote=B757FO post_id=<a href="tel:1040899">1040899</a> time=<a href="tel:1527358034">1527358034</a> user_id=5136]


Oh man your way off here brother... although over the years mbav8r and I didn’t agree on all points I certainly would invite him over for a beer and discussion. More than I would say for your comments here tbaylx.

Whoever you say you know I can assure you they will not be accepting of you with open arms. I certainly won’t be. But feel free to say it’s your airline. Words means nothing and I and 2000 Westjet and encore pilots built it. You took the easy way around 2000 pilots. It’s funny your taking a position of power in your conversation like you’ve won something. Big difference here is you literally took a job away from me and everyone else here at our airline. So if you think you will have a warm welcome I assure you I’ll be leading the information highway of who you are for the world to see. You think you will be a swoop only flightdeck? Think again. Don’t worry I know we have a stellar pilot assistance team to help with your depression when you see just how rough it’s going to get for you guys here. But hey welcome to our airline bud. Feel free to write me an email dude anytime and we can meet in yhm anytime you like.
We took jobs for a startup airline that were offered to the street. I can appreciate you had an internal fight going on, but that was your business and still is.
Swoop is a startup, no took away jobs from you as they were newly created positions offered to the street for a new airline. Swoop was and continues to be a separate airline operated under a separate AOC, much like Encore. You can take that argument up with your MEC and management how you got there. Good to see that future positions will be able to be filled by the guys at Encore and WJ if they so desire.
I've been around longer than most, not hard to figure out who I am, it's not a great secret. Thanks for the welcome and the assistance offer, but I'm sure I'll be just fine operating with whomever I end up working with. Have yourself a good weekend :wink:
[/quote]

Guess where the other 160 pilots for the 10 airplanes are coming from this year bud?? Our airline. I again assure you it won’t be a nice place for any of you. But ya you try to justify that we left the jobs on the table. You probably all convinced yourselves of it. Tell me why you needed armed security at your groundschools if it’s your flying? Nothing bad going on??? Hmmm. Don’t try to spin it dude. Your a bottom feeder. Your self convincing attitude that you’ve done “nothing” wrong is just nuts. Don’t worry as GGG said before in ignite 20 we’ll make it uncomfortable for those who don’t belong so they will leave. That’s a quote from OUR previous ceo.. but you don’t know that because you don’t work for our airline. But guess what... your so called airline... is now ours. And so is all the flying and expansion.
[/quote]

You realize all the OTS guys you’re going to make so uncomfortable are the Chief Pilot, training managers, ACP’s and line indoc/check pilots at Swoop right? Not sure how uncomfortable they’re gonna feel, I suspect they’ll do their jobs like the professionals they are instead of taking it all personally. Perhaps you could try and do the same.
[/quote]
It’s cute you think there will be a need now for a separate OC or redundant training positions, this will go the same as the “classic airline” at Jazz, since the question about who will be flying the swoop flying has been answered and no other group has any claim to scope, it can just simply be a division of WJ and for having WJ pilots flying for another airline, it’s much simpler to have under the same OC. Rouge pilots can’t go back and forth between AC, for that’s very reason I believe the swoop OC will be surrendered before it begins.
Again, best of luck to you:)
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by Transonic »

Fanblade wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 10:11 am
Transonic wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 9:21 am I do imagine that Tbaylx and others were led to believe that ALPA had a fair opportunity to crew Swoop yet declined out of greed, not knowing the real negotiations were to begin a month after their hire.
I disagree. I think you would have needed to be living under a rock to not understand that:

1) Another group had laid a contractual claim to the work they were applying for.

2) ALPA published a hiring ban to warn pilots of the risk.

2) They might be used as a pawn in the resulting labor dispute.

3) That the dispute in question would be settled only one of three ways. Strike/lockout/Arbitration. In other words, the dispute would be settled by others, and they would have no input, or say, in the outcome or thier own fate.

They chose complete uncertainty and that uncertainty will remain over them as mediation and arbitration grinds on. Best case now is they are incorporated on to the WJ list DH with the same rights as every new WJ Pilot.

FWIW I hope the best case is the outcome. Turning guns inward is not good for unity in the long run. Unfortunately ALPA, one of the three parties at the table has no responsibility toward them or even the right to defend them even if they wanted to. Thier fate remains in the hands of WJSwoop management. I suspect management will make sure there is an employment offer to avoid litigation. ALPA WJ has no say in who WJ hires.
All excellent points. It's worthy to mention the effect of WestJet's coolaid has on those who are weakest.
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Last edited by Transonic on Sat May 26, 2018 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by altiplano »

tbaylx wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 1:48 pm You realize all the OTS guys you’re going to make so uncomfortable are the Chief Pilot, training managers, ACP’s and line indoc/check pilots at Swoop right? Not sure how uncomfortable they’re gonna feel, I suspect they’ll do their jobs like the professionals they are instead of taking it all personally. Perhaps you could try and do the same.
So what's that? 8 or 10 people? I'd be surprised if they kept the position, let alone the job... were the ACPs/Trainers permanent hires? or just contract from Europe to get the airline up and running?

Westjet will keep Swoop separate if they can... easier to divide the group into the future. ALPA will have to be diligent always, creative sometimes in keeping wawcon level.
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

Transonic wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 2:18 pm
schnitzel2k3 wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 1:00 pm
B757FO wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 12:40 pm

Guess where the other 160 pilots for the 10 airplanes are coming....mine mine mine mine
Image

All of you sound the same with your idle threats. At the end of the day if you make it uncomfortable, those guys will take their type ratings elsewhere...not a big deal for either party.

Did you guys manage to get the flying at par for mainline wages? No? Technically management has won because you are doing exactly what they want. Fighting to get those 37s back at whatever cost. It'll end up another rung for the 100s of Q4 drivers at the lower wage structure, exactly where I thought it would.

Focus on your mediations, get your agreement straight. Get the salaries organized for those 87s and then worry about collecting Swoop under your umbrella again.

Horse before the carriage.

S.
Of course you, NCP/Weedpro, would rather focus on 787 wages.

The majority of your previous predictions from all personalities have been wrong.
Ummmmm...lol...what are you talking about?

Last I argued was that Swoop will fall between mainline and Encore, which it will.

I don't recall arguing common employer, but you are welcome to dig it up.

You keep focusing on the small picture. If you don't care about the 87s, perhaps it would have been a better move to have the 87s at Swoop and leave you with the clapped out 37s.

S.
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by Bede »

schnitzel2k3 wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 1:00 pm Did you guys manage to get the flying at par for mainline wages? No?
Yes.
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by DropTanks »

Bede wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 3:46 pm
schnitzel2k3 wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 1:00 pm Did you guys manage to get the flying at par for mainline wages? No?
Yes.
Ummmm I’m not quite sure that’s true. All we’ve heard is that Swoop will be flown by WJ pilots. Don’t know if the Wawcon has been settled yet. Did I miss something?
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by tbaylx »

DropTanks wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 4:02 pm
Bede wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 3:46 pm
schnitzel2k3 wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 1:00 pm Did you guys manage to get the flying at par for mainline wages? No?
Yes.
Ummmm I’m not quite sure that’s true. All we’ve heard is that Swoop will be flown by WJ pilots. Don’t know if the Wawcon has been settled yet. Did I miss something?
Wages are going to arbitration and yet to be determined AFAIK.
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by KAG »

Canadianjetpilot wrote: Thu May 10, 2018 5:38 pm
KAG wrote: Thu May 10, 2018 5:49 am
tincanflyer wrote: Tue May 08, 2018 11:30 pm Not sure why at every airline I have worked at, Pilots think they are all at the top of turd island and should always get top dollar and be looked at as the highest level as of everyone in the company. Tough sh!t. Put your head down and do your job. You don’t like it, Go else where. You want to turn WJ into AC, f-ck that. Go to big red. You are a pilot...... a freak’n sky bus driver. Hit your switches and shut your mouth. You are wrecking our company and you are a pilot. A stick jockey. Pull up and be quiet. L@sers! Go picket in your little bitty b!tch pilot hats.
Spoken like someone who wants to be a pilot but never made it. Look at it this way, if you have a bad day at work what happens? If I have a bad day I've made CNN and possibly hundreds killed. Hundreds of millions in liability.
Spoken like someone who has never been directly responsible for 170 peoples lives.

I think about that 170 every take-off and every landing. Men, women, children and babies - all of whom are MY responsibility.

Oh and if a bus loses a wheel, or has a window pop out or the engine quits/blows up the consequences pale in comparison to it happening on a jetliner.

I suspect you'd be one those people who if facing your mortality on one of those "sky-bus" flights that happened to have something go wrong, you would soil your pants. Then once back on the ground you'd be thanking the "sky-bus" crew that just saved your unthankful a**.

Nailed it. You must be a gem to fly with. Oh and you have it backwards, we didnt ruin our company, corporate greed did. That and weak minded people who would rather stick their heads in the sand when times get rough, that's when their not being lead around like sheep. Grow a pair.
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Last edited by KAG on Sat May 26, 2018 7:29 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by moe »

Tbaylx, it’s over bro.
WS flying.
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by Fanblade »

tbaylx wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 1:48 pm

You realize all the OTS guys you’re going to make so uncomfortable are the Chief Pilot, training managers, ACP’s and line indoc/check pilots at Swoop right? Not sure how uncomfortable they’re gonna feel, I suspect they’ll do their jobs like the professionals they are instead of taking it all personally. Perhaps you could try and do the same.
You seem to be missing the nuance.

Unless you are on the WJ/Encore seniority list you can't fly at Swoop. At the moment none of the people you mentioned can fly at Swoop. They are essentially grounded until management makes a decision as to if they will offer them employment at which point they join the list.
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

Bede wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 3:46 pm
schnitzel2k3 wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 1:00 pm Did you guys manage to get the flying at par for mainline wages? No?
Yes.
To my understanding, as has been reiterated by Drop Tanks and tbaylx, WAWCON still undecided. Considering you are going to have a leg chopped out via mediation, that means Swoop flying is likely not going to be done at WS mainline wages. BUT you managed to organize Swoop again, that's fantastic, but I thought the other half of the picket line protesting was at 'Westjet wages'. Otherwise, those upgrades aren't really upgrades, and just another lengthy stepping stone for the guys and gals at Encore.

Hence, my last point, you had better organize a solid agreement with the 87s. Treat Swoop like Rouge, where people have the ability to bid back and forth. Not only that but it sounds like y'all need to improve the current WAWCON at mainline, everyone except for say WP2K.

Good luck in mediation, it's going to be tough road. Keep the time short between agreements unless management comes across the line by a fair margin, and don't give up your right to strike as experienced by the crews at Morningstar.

S.
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by Fanblade »

schnitzel2k3 wrote: Sun May 27, 2018 6:10 am
Bede wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 3:46 pm
schnitzel2k3 wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 1:00 pm Did you guys manage to get the flying at par for mainline wages? No?
Yes.
To my understanding, as has been reiterated by Drop Tanks and tbaylx, WAWCON still undecided. Considering you are going to have a leg chopped out via mediation, that means Swoop flying is likely not going to be done at WS mainline wages. BUT you managed to organize Swoop again, that's fantastic, but I thought the other half of the picket line protesting was at 'Westjet wages'. Otherwise, those upgrades aren't really upgrades, and just another lengthy stepping stone for the guys and gals at Encore.

Hence, my last point, you had better organize a solid agreement with the 87s. Treat Swoop like Rouge, where people have the ability to bid back and forth. Not only that but it sounds like y'all need to improve the current WAWCON at mainline, everyone except for say WP2K.

Good luck in mediation, it's going to be tough road. Keep the time short between agreements unless management comes across the line by a fair margin, and don't give up your right to strike as experienced by the crews at Morningstar.

S.
Arbitrators don’t move very much from status quo. What they don’t do is hand out pay cuts. They don’t create winners and losers. First contracts are usually just your current working conditions in writing plus a grievance procedure. Keep in mind the arbitrator is only dealing with a dispute between WJ and its pilots. Whatever the WAWCON was at swoop is irrelevant.

IOW the most likely outcome is status quo and inflation raises, except for areas the two sides come to an agreement on.

For WJ management this is a devastating blow to achieving cheap labor at Swoop and why Saretsky is gone. For the WJ pilots it means status quo.

IOW no one wins. Exactly what an arbitrator will try to achieve.

The only way to achieve real change/ gains is through negotiation. It will never come from an arbitrator.

The last chance at negotiation is the mediation process.
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by moe »

Some big ticket items like 1:1 YOS and trip/duty rigs have already been agreed to and wont be subject to mediation/arbitration... so not necessarily status quo...
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by Fanblade »

Fanblade wrote: Sun May 27, 2018 10:33 am

IOW the most likely outcome is status quo and inflation raises, except for areas the two sides come to an agreement on.
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by tallyho »

Tbaylx, you have absolutely no idea of the amount of anger and resentment toward the Swoop pilots from the VAST majority of WJ pilots. The trainers, ACPs, captains and first officers you fly with will mostly be WJ pilots and at some point the CP will be an unsympathetic WJ pilot too. These people will be professional and nothing more. You will not be happy at Swoop regardless of how thick your skin is. It may be Westjets decision for you to leave, it may be the arbitrators, and if not it will be you who decides to leave. Fortunately for you there are lots of jobs available right now.
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by cloak »

tallyho wrote: Sun May 27, 2018 6:58 pm Tbaylx, you have absolutely no idea of the amount of anger and resentment toward the Swoop pilots from the VAST majority of WJ pilots. The trainers, ACPs, captains and first officers you fly with will mostly be WJ pilots and at some point the CP will be an unsympathetic WJ pilot too. These people will be professional and nothing more. You will not be happy at Swoop regardless of how thick your skin is. It may be Westjets decision for you to leave, it may be the arbitrators, and if not it will be you who decides to leave. Fortunately for you there are lots of jobs available right now.
It's easy to portray someone as the villain and source of all problems, but imo this is the example of a man who is angry with the guy with tattoos on a motorcycle that his daughter brought home for dinner and is dating! Instead of improving his relationship with his daughter to a) understand her better and have more influence in her decisions and/or b) get to know the tattoo guy that maybe is not such a bad guy once you get to know him! Either way, focus positive energy on improving the system, communications and ultimately broken relationship.
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