Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

[MattK]

WJ sells 49% to a foreign entity interested in the Cdn market, a further 2% to another investor and keeps 49%. No longer a majority owner, simply an investor and Swoop continues operations and grows. WJ still has a measure of protection on its bottoms side, ALPA and the pilots have no sway on the conditions or flying at Swoop.

Not saying that is going to happen but I highly doubt WJ is going to walk away so easily.

I don't think you understand how a publicly traded company works. WestJet doesn't "own" the company, a bunch of investors "own" pieces of WestJet so right now random people and investment groups own Westjet and put their faith behind a Board of Directors that give guidance on how to run the company. Now some big investment funds can buy huge portions of companies (10-20%) is a big portion and as a result they can require that they get a seat on the Board of Directors, Bill Ackman is an example of an activist investor that does this.

Thanks but I do know how it works. WJ is a legal entity and it 'own' other companies, assets etc. WJ itself is publicly traded and 'owned' by shareholders. They can buy 49% of another airline, they can structure Swoop into any legal entity they like and sell the majority stake etc etc. All part of operating a corporation. Those shareholders you mentioned are interested in one thing - being profitable. If WJ can make a go of Swoop on manner or another and it is profitable to do so - then the shareholders will back them. If the WJ pilots (or other employees) can make that difficult (and they are trying) then Swoop may disappear.

My point is that WJ has LOTS of options and, I would guess, a plan that includes many eventualities which will play out over time. I'm not saying I agree with it only that it would be dangerous to assume otherwise. So it might have been wise to somehow bring those Swoop pilots into the fold rather than jumping up and down and denigrating them. Would have been interesting to see if they could have been brought into the same bargaining unit, vote for the same conditions with a threat of strike and move forward. If WJ moves forward with a partial sale (as I mentioned) or some other plan the WJ pilots may lose control over what happens at Swoop and may find themselves with no right to fly the aircraft.

[mbav8r]

MattK, don’t take this the wrong way but WTF are you talking about?
The who will fly Swoop has been dealt with and there is nothing to sell, Swoop is one painted leased 37 and contracted out training to CAE.
As for bringing swoop pilots into the fold, Swoop was announced around the exact same time WJ unionized, then when they started hiring for it, a challenge was launched with the CIRB as well ALPA created a blacklist because these pilots were willing to undercut disputed work. The pilots there have no excuse and in my opinion will not be flying for either company when the dust settles, we’ll see I suppose but crossing my fingers that their decision to screw over WJ Pilots has consequences

[schnitzel2k3]

MattK, don’t take this the wrong way but WTF are you talking about?
The who will fly Swoop has been dealt with and there is nothing to sell, Swoop is one painted leased 37 and contracted out training to CAE.
As for bringing swoop pilots into the fold, Swoop was announced around the exact same time WJ unionized, then when they started hiring for it, a challenge was launched with the CIRB as well ALPA created a blacklist because these pilots were willing to undercut disputed work. The pilots there have no excuse and in my opinion will not be flying for either company when the dust settles, we’ll see I suppose but crossing my fingers that their decision to screw over WJ Pilots has consequences

I can't imagine it's going to be a fun environment by any stretch of the imagination for those 12 guys.

I wasn't in the know that the MEC had already negotiated that Swoop would be operated at WS rates by WS crews. If that is the case, that is awesome news, and I am busy eating my sweaty socks. I couldn't see how that would be the case with WS fighting so hard for so long against the pilot group to give that up so quickly in mediation, to me as a manager (and playing devils adv.), that would be a hard no to keep costs down.

Really don't see the point of the scarlet 12 finishing ground school. They'd be much better off heading back, if able, to their former employer and pretend nothing happened.

S.

[DropTanks]

MattK, don’t take this the wrong way but WTF are you talking about?
The who will fly Swoop has been dealt with and there is nothing to sell, Swoop is one painted leased 37 and contracted out training to CAE.
As for bringing swoop pilots into the fold, Swoop was announced around the exact same time WJ unionized, then when they started hiring for it, a challenge was launched with the CIRB as well ALPA created a blacklist because these pilots were willing to undercut disputed work. The pilots there have no excuse and in my opinion will not be flying for either company when the dust settles, we’ll see I suppose but crossing my fingers that their decision to screw over WJ Pilots has consequences

I can't imagine it's going to be a fun environment by any stretch of the imagination for those 12 guys.

I wasn't in the know that the MEC had already negotiated that Swoop would be operated at WS rates by WS crews. If that is the case, that is awesome news, and I am busy eating my sweaty socks. I couldn't see how that would be the case with WS fighting so hard for so long against the pilot group to give that up so quickly in mediation, to me as a manager (and playing devils adv.), that would be a hard no to keep costs down.

Really don't see the point of the scarlet 12 finishing ground school. They'd be much better off heading back, if able, to their former employer and pretend nothing happened.

S.

The Swoop Wawcon has not been decided. Only that WJ pilots will fly it. For how much? We don’t know yet. As for the 42 Swoop pukes...also unknown.

[MattK]

mbav8- OK, I'll try and make it simple. WJ management (owners) could care less about your career progression. My point has nothing to do with the Swoop pilots. It is simply to suggest that WJ may not just walk away from Swoop and there are many course of action that they could take. Perhaps they will just roll it up and abandon it all together as a path that was not worth following (ie. they lost the battle). Or perhaps they may attempt an end run around the issue of WJ pilots flying the Swoop birds. I am guessing there are a few ways to do this - one being the sale of of 51% of Swoop (regardless of it being only one airframe and a handful of staff) to another entity who sees value. When WJ does not own a controlling interest Swoop can staff with anyone they like!

Or they buy 49% of another ULCC - same effect. They want to try and control the bottom end of the market. This allows some control, presumably is somewhat profitable and enables them to bypass the WJ pilots all together.

So lets make it clearer - they don't want the cost associated with WJ and they want to find a way around it. It is great that the WJ pilots stuck together! My point is the the company may have more up their sleeves than what we see now.

[schnitzel2k3]

MattK, don’t take this the wrong way but WTF are you talking about?
The who will fly Swoop has been dealt with and there is nothing to sell, Swoop is one painted leased 37 and contracted out training to CAE.
As for bringing swoop pilots into the fold, Swoop was announced around the exact same time WJ unionized, then when they started hiring for it, a challenge was launched with the CIRB as well ALPA created a blacklist because these pilots were willing to undercut disputed work. The pilots there have no excuse and in my opinion will not be flying for either company when the dust settles, we’ll see I suppose but crossing my fingers that their decision to screw over WJ Pilots has consequences

I can't imagine it's going to be a fun environment by any stretch of the imagination for those 12 guys.

I wasn't in the know that the MEC had already negotiated that Swoop would be operated at WS rates by WS crews. If that is the case, that is awesome news, and I am busy eating my sweaty socks. I couldn't see how that would be the case with WS fighting so hard for so long against the pilot group to give that up so quickly in mediation, to me as a manager (and playing devils adv.), that would be a hard no to keep costs down.

Really don't see the point of the scarlet 12 finishing ground school. They'd be much better off heading back, if able, to their former employer and pretend nothing happened.

S.

The Swoop Wawcon has not been decided. Only that WJ pilots will fly it. For how much? We don’t know yet. As for the 42 Swoop pukes...also unknown.

There's 42?!! ####.

What happens with the 'internal' guy(s) that are there?

[mbav8r]

mbav8- OK, I'll try and make it simple. WJ management (owners) could care less about your career progression. My point has nothing to do with the Swoop pilots. It is simply to suggest that WJ may not just walk away from Swoop and there are many course of action that they could take. Perhaps they will just roll it up and abandon it all together as a path that was not worth following (ie. they lost the battle). Or perhaps they may attempt an end run around the issue of WJ pilots flying the Swoop birds. I am guessing there are a few ways to do this - one being the sale of of 51% of Swoop (regardless of it being only one airframe and a handful of staff) to another entity who sees value. When WJ does not own a controlling interest Swoop can staff with anyone they like!

Or they buy 49% of another ULCC - same effect. They want to try and control the bottom end of the market. This allows some control, presumably is somewhat profitable and enables them to bypass the WJ pilots all together.

So lets make it clearer - they don't want the cost associated with WJ and they want to find a way around it. It is great that the WJ pilots stuck together! My point is the the company may have more up their sleeves than what we see now.

MattK,
You may be correct that WJ may not walk away from swoop, the value to them at this point may be with the other groups of employees, the ones without scope.
First of all, by all accounts WJ has agreed that it will be WJ pilots staffing swoop, that is excluded from the arbitration.
Second, your point about WJ selling 49% plus 2%, keeping 49 for themselves, they could keep 5% it would not matter because the scope language being violated and under submission to the CIRB is clear. Any affiliate would fall under this, maybe WJ will continue to fight the scope language, who knows.
PS. It’s not affecting my career progression, I’m not at WJ. Just an interested observer who wants to see scumbags like tbaylx get their due. I know all too well what’s happens when scum offers to do your work at a huge discount.

[seriousflyer]

New info has come up indicating that swoop pilots will NOT be fired. I was hoping this wasnt true.
I heard its 24 swoop pilots in question...as of May 29.
Hoping they voluntarily quit, or pressured to leave within 1st day, or week, month, year.

Did anyone see the swoop captain ad that's was posted today by "Indeedjobs". It was up for a day and then taken down.

[schnitzel2k3]

Did anyone see the swoop captain ad that's was posted today by "Indeedjobs". It was up for a day and then taken down.

Asked and answered. Accidental posting by HR. I'm sure it got ALPAs attention today.

S.

[DynaRider]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om18cOWFL3Q

[rudder]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om18cOWFL3Q

How will the robot do with an uncontained engine failure coupled with a rapid decompression?

Or how about a double engine failure due to bird strike?

Or how about a fatigue related structural failure leading to hull breach?

Pilotless commercial passenger aircraft? Total fantasy.

[schnitzel2k3]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om18cOWFL3Q

How will the robot do with an uncontained engine failure coupled with a rapid decompression?

Or how about a double engine failure due to bird strike?

Or how about a fatigue related structural failure leading to hull breach?

Pilotless commercial passenger aircraft? Total fantasy.

You'd have to have fully autonomous AI, that can learn, then teach it to fly (its learning curve will be exponentially faster), give it a type rating, certify it and test it every year to make sure it didn't develop procedures outside of the box.

At which point, the question becomes, why even go that route?

I could see this system getting us closer to single piloting an airliner, but removing the human element is a poor decision at best.

S.

[aerobod]

Airbus plans to have it’s first urban pilotless passenger and cargo rotorcraft as a product demonstrator in 2020. The initial test flights have been successful: http://www.rotorandwing.com/2018/02/02/ ... irst-time/