Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

[schnitzel2k3]

I would believe that all these upstanding Swoopsters are all still on probation.

Standard probation for WestJet pilots is 12 months, during which time the company doesn't need a reason to let you go.

Something to think about.

Bear in mind that this is now a company that threatened to basically liquidate a $4 billion corporation that has been profitable for 13 straight years in an attempt to avoid negotiating a reasonable deal with what used to be the most motivated pilot group on the planet, a few dozen Swoopsters are insignificant in the big scheme of things.

Probation or not...

'If an employer makes intentional misrepresentations to convince an applicant to take a job, and the employee takes action in reliance on those statements (for example, by quitting a secure position to take the new one), the employee may have a fraud claim.'

They will want to avoid any lawsuits on this one.

S.

[Transonic]

The Labour Minister intervened to cause this agreement. Sounds like force majaure.

Further, WestJet never intentionally misrepresented their offer to Swoop pilots. It was WestJet's full intention to have it flown by OTS pilots in order to extract concessions from Mainline.

WestJet had no idea this was going to happen when it happened. Remember, Gregg said 4 years for a CBA...

[cloak]

From the outside it seems that other factors aside, from an economical point of view WestJet needs Swoop for its low cost flying and it will likely do what it can to preserve that. WestJet is transitioning from low cost business and entering a new era of becoming a major international airline with more routs, 3 class cabins and major expansion. They need Swoop to do the low cost flying (or ULC now) while the mainline expands the full service and international business. Looking at the bigger picture, pilots can become a partner to facilitate that transition and expansion in a way that is mutually beneficial with a negotiated agreement as opposed to arbitration which drags on the unhappiness.

[Bede]

Probation or not...

'If an employer makes intentional misrepresentations to convince an applicant to take a job, and the employee takes action in reliance on those statements (for example, by quitting a secure position to take the new one), the employee may have a fraud claim.'

They will want to avoid any lawsuits on this one.

S.

Fraudulent misrepresentation is incredible difficult to prove. You must prove that the company knew that what they were saying is false at the time that they said it. Additionally, when you make a claim that attacks the character of a party (such as fraud, asking for punitive damages), etc., you're more likely to have to pay increased costs should you lose.

[KAG]

The Labour Minister intervened to cause this agreement. Sounds like force majaure.

Further, WestJet never intentionally misrepresented their offer to Swoop pilots. It was WestJet's full intention to have it flown by OTS pilots in order to extract concessions from Mainline.

WestJet had no idea this was going to happen when it happened. Remember, Gregg said 4 years for a CBA...

That's what happens when you hire Americans running a Canadian business...surprise this isnt the states, the rules are different.

As for this situation....what a mess. I play devils advocate a lot, and with this situation its hard to justify knowingly breaking a hiring ban from the largest pilot union in the world, and ACPA. The only thing I can say that's PC is: entitled. They felt entitled to those captain seats. Yes there was an ad, yes they have experience, and yes they all knew it was wrong. It was dirty pool by the companies part (but its just business I know ), dirty tactics that the company used. As a pilot during a time of plentiful jobs to screw your peers by applying for these ridiculous low 737 positions which is clearly just a spat between union and company, is equally dirty. Stupid infact. Yall got greedy, plane and simple. You've put in your time right? You didnt get your shot right? Well what about the fos who've put in almost a decade AT WJ ?What about the future downward pressure and whipsawing this was going to create? I've been at WJ 11 years and from the press releases I've read the size they envision swoop to become (40/50 tails) that's the size of the WJ was when I got hired. And you guys are ok with that? Or did you not think beyond those fancy gold 4 bars and all the prestige the bottom paid 737 drivers in North America comes with. I'd rather wash windows then step on the toes of this many pilots. I really, really don't think you guys thought this through, and sadly its too late to hit reverse.
No one knows what's going to happen come June 22. Could go any number of ways. Time will tell.

[schnitzel2k3]

Probation or not...

'If an employer makes intentional misrepresentations to convince an applicant to take a job, and the employee takes action in reliance on those statements (for example, by quitting a secure position to take the new one), the employee may have a fraud claim.'

They will want to avoid any lawsuits on this one.

S.

Fraudulent misrepresentation is incredible difficult to prove. You must prove that the company knew that what they were saying is false at the time that they said it. Additionally, when you make a claim that attacks the character of a party (such as fraud, asking for punitive damages), etc., you're more likely to have to pay increased costs should you lose.

Fair enough Bede, really curious to see what happens prior to things getting going.

Curious if OTS will start the Swoop flying as WS / Encore pilots filter in.

S.

[seriousflyer]

Swoop pilots will not be accepted at Westjet or Encore. There is no line indoc concerns, because its a moot point.

[MattK]

WJ sells 49% to a foreign entity interested in the Cdn market, a further 2% to another investor and keeps 49%. No longer a majority owner, simply an investor and Swoop continues operations and grows. WJ still has a measure of protection on its bottoms side, ALPA and the pilots have no sway on the conditions or flying at Swoop.

Not saying that is going to happen but I highly doubt WJ is going to walk away so easily.

[fish4life]

WJ sells 49% to a foreign entity interested in the Cdn market, a further 2% to another investor and keeps 49%. No longer a majority owner, simply an investor and Swoop continues operations and grows. WJ still has a measure of protection on its bottoms side, ALPA and the pilots have no sway on the conditions or flying at Swoop.

Not saying that is going to happen but I highly doubt WJ is going to walk away so easily.

I don't think you understand how a publicly traded company works. WestJet doesn't "own" the company, a bunch of investors "own" pieces of WestJet so right now random people and investment groups own Westjet and put their faith behind a Board of Directors that give guidance on how to run the company. Now some big investment funds can buy huge portions of companies (10-20%) is a big portion and as a result they can require that they get a seat on the Board of Directors, Bill Ackman is an example of an activist investor that does this.

[schnitzel2k3]

Swoop pilots will not be accepted at Westjet or Encore. There is no line indoc concerns, because its a moot point.

If you read the other thread on this, you will find a differing of opinions and information.

The most recent says that Swoop pilots will become WS pilots. To degrade them further most guys say they will be BOTL of the Encore list. Perfectly fine if those guys chose to stay, despite the almost certain flight deck abuse they will receive.

The other side of the coin argues that they are blacklisted by ALPA and therefore can't join the Westjet et al ranks.

Soooooo...it's not a moot point. Someone is going to have to line indoc depending on who's OC it's on.

S.

S.

[MattK]

WJ sells 49% to a foreign entity interested in the Cdn market, a further 2% to another investor and keeps 49%. No longer a majority owner, simply an investor and Swoop continues operations and grows. WJ still has a measure of protection on its bottoms side, ALPA and the pilots have no sway on the conditions or flying at Swoop.

Not saying that is going to happen but I highly doubt WJ is going to walk away so easily.

I don't think you understand how a publicly traded company works. WestJet doesn't "own" the company, a bunch of investors "own" pieces of WestJet so right now random people and investment groups own Westjet and put their faith behind a Board of Directors that give guidance on how to run the company. Now some big investment funds can buy huge portions of companies (10-20%) is a big portion and as a result they can require that they get a seat on the Board of Directors, Bill Ackman is an example of an activist investor that does this.

Thanks but I do know how it works. WJ is a legal entity and it 'own' other companies, assets etc. WJ itself is publicly traded and 'owned' by shareholders. They can buy 49% of another airline, they can structure Swoop into any legal entity they like and sell the majority stake etc etc. All part of operating a corporation. Those shareholders you mentioned are interested in one thing - being profitable. If WJ can make a go of Swoop on manner or another and it is profitable to do so - then the shareholders will back them. If the WJ pilots (or other employees) can make that difficult (and they are trying) then Swoop may disappear.

My point is that WJ has LOTS of options and, I would guess, a plan that includes many eventualities which will play out over time. I'm not saying I agree with it only that it would be dangerous to assume otherwise. So it might have been wise to somehow bring those Swoop pilots into the fold rather than jumping up and down and denigrating them. Would have been interesting to see if they could have been brought into the same bargaining unit, vote for the same conditions with a threat of strike and move forward. If WJ moves forward with a partial sale (as I mentioned) or some other plan the WJ pilots may lose control over what happens at Swoop and may find themselves with no right to fly the aircraft.

[mbav8r]

MattK, don’t take this the wrong way but WTF are you talking about?
The who will fly Swoop has been dealt with and there is nothing to sell, Swoop is one painted leased 37 and contracted out training to CAE.
As for bringing swoop pilots into the fold, Swoop was announced around the exact same time WJ unionized, then when they started hiring for it, a challenge was launched with the CIRB as well ALPA created a blacklist because these pilots were willing to undercut disputed work. The pilots there have no excuse and in my opinion will not be flying for either company when the dust settles, we’ll see I suppose but crossing my fingers that their decision to screw over WJ Pilots has consequences

[schnitzel2k3]

MattK, don’t take this the wrong way but WTF are you talking about?
The who will fly Swoop has been dealt with and there is nothing to sell, Swoop is one painted leased 37 and contracted out training to CAE.
As for bringing swoop pilots into the fold, Swoop was announced around the exact same time WJ unionized, then when they started hiring for it, a challenge was launched with the CIRB as well ALPA created a blacklist because these pilots were willing to undercut disputed work. The pilots there have no excuse and in my opinion will not be flying for either company when the dust settles, we’ll see I suppose but crossing my fingers that their decision to screw over WJ Pilots has consequences

I can't imagine it's going to be a fun environment by any stretch of the imagination for those 12 guys.

I wasn't in the know that the MEC had already negotiated that Swoop would be operated at WS rates by WS crews. If that is the case, that is awesome news, and I am busy eating my sweaty socks. I couldn't see how that would be the case with WS fighting so hard for so long against the pilot group to give that up so quickly in mediation, to me as a manager (and playing devils adv.), that would be a hard no to keep costs down.

Really don't see the point of the scarlet 12 finishing ground school. They'd be much better off heading back, if able, to their former employer and pretend nothing happened.

S.

[DropTanks]

MattK, don’t take this the wrong way but WTF are you talking about?
The who will fly Swoop has been dealt with and there is nothing to sell, Swoop is one painted leased 37 and contracted out training to CAE.
As for bringing swoop pilots into the fold, Swoop was announced around the exact same time WJ unionized, then when they started hiring for it, a challenge was launched with the CIRB as well ALPA created a blacklist because these pilots were willing to undercut disputed work. The pilots there have no excuse and in my opinion will not be flying for either company when the dust settles, we’ll see I suppose but crossing my fingers that their decision to screw over WJ Pilots has consequences

I can't imagine it's going to be a fun environment by any stretch of the imagination for those 12 guys.

I wasn't in the know that the MEC had already negotiated that Swoop would be operated at WS rates by WS crews. If that is the case, that is awesome news, and I am busy eating my sweaty socks. I couldn't see how that would be the case with WS fighting so hard for so long against the pilot group to give that up so quickly in mediation, to me as a manager (and playing devils adv.), that would be a hard no to keep costs down.

Really don't see the point of the scarlet 12 finishing ground school. They'd be much better off heading back, if able, to their former employer and pretend nothing happened.

S.

The Swoop Wawcon has not been decided. Only that WJ pilots will fly it. For how much? We don’t know yet. As for the 42 Swoop pukes...also unknown.

[MattK]

mbav8- OK, I'll try and make it simple. WJ management (owners) could care less about your career progression. My point has nothing to do with the Swoop pilots. It is simply to suggest that WJ may not just walk away from Swoop and there are many course of action that they could take. Perhaps they will just roll it up and abandon it all together as a path that was not worth following (ie. they lost the battle). Or perhaps they may attempt an end run around the issue of WJ pilots flying the Swoop birds. I am guessing there are a few ways to do this - one being the sale of of 51% of Swoop (regardless of it being only one airframe and a handful of staff) to another entity who sees value. When WJ does not own a controlling interest Swoop can staff with anyone they like!

Or they buy 49% of another ULCC - same effect. They want to try and control the bottom end of the market. This allows some control, presumably is somewhat profitable and enables them to bypass the WJ pilots all together.

So lets make it clearer - they don't want the cost associated with WJ and they want to find a way around it. It is great that the WJ pilots stuck together! My point is the the company may have more up their sleeves than what we see now.

[schnitzel2k3]

MattK, don’t take this the wrong way but WTF are you talking about?
The who will fly Swoop has been dealt with and there is nothing to sell, Swoop is one painted leased 37 and contracted out training to CAE.
As for bringing swoop pilots into the fold, Swoop was announced around the exact same time WJ unionized, then when they started hiring for it, a challenge was launched with the CIRB as well ALPA created a blacklist because these pilots were willing to undercut disputed work. The pilots there have no excuse and in my opinion will not be flying for either company when the dust settles, we’ll see I suppose but crossing my fingers that their decision to screw over WJ Pilots has consequences

I can't imagine it's going to be a fun environment by any stretch of the imagination for those 12 guys.

I wasn't in the know that the MEC had already negotiated that Swoop would be operated at WS rates by WS crews. If that is the case, that is awesome news, and I am busy eating my sweaty socks. I couldn't see how that would be the case with WS fighting so hard for so long against the pilot group to give that up so quickly in mediation, to me as a manager (and playing devils adv.), that would be a hard no to keep costs down.

Really don't see the point of the scarlet 12 finishing ground school. They'd be much better off heading back, if able, to their former employer and pretend nothing happened.

S.

The Swoop Wawcon has not been decided. Only that WJ pilots will fly it. For how much? We don’t know yet. As for the 42 Swoop pukes...also unknown.

There's 42?!! ####.

What happens with the 'internal' guy(s) that are there?

[mbav8r]

mbav8- OK, I'll try and make it simple. WJ management (owners) could care less about your career progression. My point has nothing to do with the Swoop pilots. It is simply to suggest that WJ may not just walk away from Swoop and there are many course of action that they could take. Perhaps they will just roll it up and abandon it all together as a path that was not worth following (ie. they lost the battle). Or perhaps they may attempt an end run around the issue of WJ pilots flying the Swoop birds. I am guessing there are a few ways to do this - one being the sale of of 51% of Swoop (regardless of it being only one airframe and a handful of staff) to another entity who sees value. When WJ does not own a controlling interest Swoop can staff with anyone they like!

Or they buy 49% of another ULCC - same effect. They want to try and control the bottom end of the market. This allows some control, presumably is somewhat profitable and enables them to bypass the WJ pilots all together.

So lets make it clearer - they don't want the cost associated with WJ and they want to find a way around it. It is great that the WJ pilots stuck together! My point is the the company may have more up their sleeves than what we see now.

MattK,
You may be correct that WJ may not walk away from swoop, the value to them at this point may be with the other groups of employees, the ones without scope.
First of all, by all accounts WJ has agreed that it will be WJ pilots staffing swoop, that is excluded from the arbitration.
Second, your point about WJ selling 49% plus 2%, keeping 49 for themselves, they could keep 5% it would not matter because the scope language being violated and under submission to the CIRB is clear. Any affiliate would fall under this, maybe WJ will continue to fight the scope language, who knows.
PS. It’s not affecting my career progression, I’m not at WJ. Just an interested observer who wants to see scumbags like tbaylx get their due. I know all too well what’s happens when scum offers to do your work at a huge discount.

[seriousflyer]

New info has come up indicating that swoop pilots will NOT be fired. I was hoping this wasnt true.
I heard its 24 swoop pilots in question...as of May 29.
Hoping they voluntarily quit, or pressured to leave within 1st day, or week, month, year.

Did anyone see the swoop captain ad that's was posted today by "Indeedjobs". It was up for a day and then taken down.

[schnitzel2k3]

Did anyone see the swoop captain ad that's was posted today by "Indeedjobs". It was up for a day and then taken down.

Asked and answered. Accidental posting by HR. I'm sure it got ALPAs attention today.

S.

[DynaRider]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om18cOWFL3Q