WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft

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cloak
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Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft

Post by cloak »

Transonic wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:48 pm
tbaylx wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:06 pm
Westjet chose to offer it at Sunwing hourly rates, which wasn't acceptable to Westjet pilots. So it went to the street....
Really, would a union do that? Has a pilot union ever decided to give up flying the same aircraft and routes because the rates *offered* were too low?
??? If you mean accepting a lower pay for the same aircraft in the fleet, ACPA did for Rouge.
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Last edited by cloak on Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
jjj
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Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft

Post by jjj »

Tbaylx,

As a member in good standing with the Union you'll have access to the ALPA/WJA private forum. It is governed by strict terms of use and there isn't any anonymity. Plenty of good reading in there on the topic. Enjoy the reading.

Cheers.

JJJ
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tbaylx
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Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft

Post by tbaylx »

jjj wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:30 pm Tbaylx,

Since you're likely going to be around for awhile then let me acquaint you with the doublespeak that comes from the top.

"Nope, the only thing they’ve said is that they won’t negotiate with one group at the expense of the other..."

That is precisely what they have done at the expense of our First Officers. I guess they don't count as a group worth consideration.

Right now the company is going to bat more for people like you than the people that built this airline - it suits the agenda of attacking labour. Enjoy the fleeting feeling and count yourself lucky that ALPA is on the property. Again you have people like me to thank for that as well.

JJJ
I have no bone in your fight with WestJet. I can only comment on what we've seen from Swoop management and they’ve gone out of their way to be open and forthcoming as well as answering endless emails from people despite having to deal with launching an airline and being involved in the negotiations.
I get where you guys are in your relationship with management at WestJet and I hope it gets better moving forward. Swoop leadership has been nothing but professional and open with us to date. I hope that continues as it grows, but obviously it can change over time. It used to be like that at WestJet at one point.
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tbaylx
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Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft

Post by tbaylx »

jjj wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:37 pm Tbaylx,

As a member in good standing with the Union you'll have access to the ALPA/WJA private forum. It is governed by strict terms of use and there isn't any anonymity. Plenty of good reading in there on the topic. Enjoy the reading.

Cheers.

JJJ
I’ve seen it already, I’m well aware of the emotions involved and differences in opinions.
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jjj
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Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft

Post by jjj »

Glad you’ve seen the sight.

You want harmony in the workplace - start with some acceptance of your role in this fiasco and drop the innocent bystander routine.

Don’t have a bone in this fight? You’re wrong.

Let’s get something clear bro - your management is my management. When you wrap your head around that concept you may gain some traction around the property.

You’ll soon get used to the same two speeches the Encore guys hear depending on the topic. When it’s time for profit share etc we are one big family that trades under a stock called WJA. When the company wants to compress employees - we’re a start up.

Cheers.

JJJ
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Transonic
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Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft

Post by Transonic »

cloak wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:32 pm
Transonic wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:48 pm
tbaylx wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:06 pm
Westjet chose to offer it at Sunwing hourly rates, which wasn't acceptable to Westjet pilots. So it went to the street....
Really, would a union do that? Has a pilot union ever decided to give up flying the same aircraft and routes because the rates *offered* were too low?
??? If you mean accepting a lower pay for the same aircraft in the fleet, ACPA did for Rouge.
No, as in decline flying because wages offered were lower. ACPA did not give up Rouge flying because it was less. ACPA pilots fly rouge aircraft.
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mbav8r
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Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft

Post by mbav8r »

eyebrow737 wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:11 pm
mbav8r wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:51 pm Who’s the bully again, your entire post including how you changed my handle, Hypocrite!
Also, I’m not a WJ pilot, I’m a Jazz pilot who has been undercut by pilots that went to SR, then 10 of them figured they hadn’t screwed over enough pilots, they swooped WJ pilots too.
History is just that, the WJ pilots are doing something now and the majority of them were not there for the initial start up phase you refer to.
So, SR were scabs by taking over Jazz routes and undercutting the costs?

What does that make Jazz then when they took over mainlines CRJ fleet doing the same? Scabs?

Oh all history right? Nice to pick and choose
Just can’t leave this one particular comment be, the CRJs were ordered by Air Nova and taken from them by AC pilots who offered to fly them for less. They should’ve been “Jazz” RJs in the first place and yes it’s all in the past, our actions today will shape tomorrow, so perhaps we need to be accountable for today. tbaylx is willfully blind to his actions and his argument is weak, him and his ilk should have consequences for their actions.

tbaylx, the work was contractually obliged to WJ pilots, it wasn’t WJs to give away and the fact they were offering it to the street doesn’t make it ok. It’s a thief selling it to a morally bankrupt group who knew they were buying stolen goods, the fact it was out in the open doesn’t change it. Tell yourself whatever you want, you’re still a thief.
Enjoy the workplace environment I’m sure you’ll experience, probably not what you signed up for but you know, things change.
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Jumbo744
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Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft

Post by Jumbo744 »

mbav8r wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:51 pm
eyebrow737 wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:02 am
mbav8r wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:41 am
How do you feel about hypocrites?
Personally, I would add names of pilots who support swoop pilots to the blacklist, care to share your name eyebrow?
Also, only an idiot would not realize that doing the flying for a wholly owned subsidiary of WJ for 40% less salary would be contentious!
Mastib8r , I didn't say I supported them. I just don't like communist pilots who resort to the form of intimidation and bullying.

You want to talk about a hypocrite? As I have said before, in a fair world westjet would been out of business a long time ago for what you have all contributed to the reputation of a pilot and to our salaries.

Go back and pick up more garbage and tell more bad jokes. You're all only now starting to realize what a piece of crud regional airline you really work for now that the cool aid has dried off... haven't you?

You wanted to be the bottom of the race to the bottom and now some one has taken that away from you... jealous much?
Who’s the bully again, your entire post including how you changed my handle, Hypocrite!
Also, I’m not a WJ pilot, I’m a Jazz pilot who has been undercut by pilots that went to SR, then 10 of them figured they hadn’t screwed over enough pilots, they swooped WJ pilots too.
History is just that, the WJ pilots are doing something now and the majority of them were not there for the initial start up phase you refer to.

wow wow...wait a minute mbav8r: you have a lot of posts in this thread and you are not even a Westjet employee? bro you have way too much free time on your hands. Either that or you are not telling the truth and you actually are a Westjet pilot. If you are not, I feel really sorry for you for being so emotionally involved in a battle where your say does not count. Get a life man. And SR pilots have a better salary than you guys at Jazz. How much do CRJ FOs get paid again? Minimum credit gives FOs something like 1900$ a month after tax. That salary is nothing to be proud of, it's actually pathetic.
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RustyDeuce
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Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft

Post by RustyDeuce »

lostaviator wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:50 am
RustyDeuce wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:17 pm
It’s started already. Red pass and WestJet ID required or no jumpseat.
That's a steaming pile of bullshit.
How so?

Personally, a red pass is required for safety. Anyone can get a job at wj, get their wj id day 1 and hop in a jumpseat. If I can’t show my family where I work, I’m not showing a stranger.
How so? Nobody gave you the right to decide who flies jump - there's a policy in place that decides who and in what order.
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Checklist
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Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft

Post by Checklist »

Jumbo744 wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:55 pm
mbav8r wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:51 pm
eyebrow737 wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:02 am

Mastib8r , I didn't say I supported them. I just don't like communist pilots who resort to the form of intimidation and bullying.

You want to talk about a hypocrite? As I have said before, in a fair world westjet would been out of business a long time ago for what you have all contributed to the reputation of a pilot and to our salaries.

Go back and pick up more garbage and tell more bad jokes. You're all only now starting to realize what a piece of crud regional airline you really work for now that the cool aid has dried off... haven't you?

You wanted to be the bottom of the race to the bottom and now some one has taken that away from you... jealous much?
Who’s the bully again, your entire post including how you changed my handle, Hypocrite!
Also, I’m not a WJ pilot, I’m a Jazz pilot who has been undercut by pilots that went to SR, then 10 of them figured they hadn’t screwed over enough pilots, they swooped WJ pilots too.
History is just that, the WJ pilots are doing something now and the majority of them were not there for the initial start up phase you refer to.

wow wow...wait a minute mbav8r: you have a lot of posts in this thread and you are not even a Westjet employee? bro you have way too much free time on your hands. Either that or you are not telling the truth and you actually are a Westjet pilot. If you are not, I feel really sorry for you for being so emotionally involved in a battle where your say does not count. Get a life man. And SR pilots have a better salary than you guys at Jazz. How much do CRJ FOs get paid again? Minimum credit gives FOs something like 1900$ a month after tax. That salary is nothing to be proud of, it's actually pathetic.
...so what? You’re supposed to post. It’s a forum. Literally how this whole thing works.
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RidersRule
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Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft

Post by RidersRule »

Dyna wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:44 pm Anyone IN the industry that claims ignorance is a liar
Bingo...
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Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft

Post by atphat »

RustyDeuce wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:34 pm
lostaviator wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:50 am
RustyDeuce wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:17 pm

That's a steaming pile of bullshit.
How so?

Personally, a red pass is required for safety. Anyone can get a job at wj, get their wj id day 1 and hop in a jumpseat. If I can’t show my family where I work, I’m not showing a stranger.
How so? Nobody gave you the right to decide who flies jump - there's a policy in place that decides who and in what order.
There is a policy. Then there is the Captains decision. Which is final, regardless of policy.
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JohnnyHotRocks
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Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft

Post by JohnnyHotRocks »

Jumbo744 wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:55 pm
mbav8r wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:51 pm
eyebrow737 wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:02 am

Mastib8r , I didn't say I supported them. I just don't like communist pilots who resort to the form of intimidation and bullying.

You want to talk about a hypocrite? As I have said before, in a fair world westjet would been out of business a long time ago for what you have all contributed to the reputation of a pilot and to our salaries.

Go back and pick up more garbage and tell more bad jokes. You're all only now starting to realize what a piece of crud regional airline you really work for now that the cool aid has dried off... haven't you?

You wanted to be the bottom of the race to the bottom and now some one has taken that away from you... jealous much?
Who’s the bully again, your entire post including how you changed my handle, Hypocrite!
Also, I’m not a WJ pilot, I’m a Jazz pilot who has been undercut by pilots that went to SR, then 10 of them figured they hadn’t screwed over enough pilots, they swooped WJ pilots too.
History is just that, the WJ pilots are doing something now and the majority of them were not there for the initial start up phase you refer to.

wow wow...wait a minute mbav8r: you have a lot of posts in this thread and you are not even a Westjet employee? bro you have way too much free time on your hands. Either that or you are not telling the truth and you actually are a Westjet pilot. If you are not, I feel really sorry for you for being so emotionally involved in a battle where your say does not count. Get a life man. And SR pilots have a better salary than you guys at Jazz. How much do CRJ FOs get paid again? Minimum credit gives FOs something like 1900$ a month after tax. That salary is nothing to be proud of, it's actually pathetic.
You really want to get him going? Ask about those 757 Captains at Jazz that were the lowest paid in N. America
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mbav8r
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Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft

Post by mbav8r »

Jumbo744 wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:55 pm
mbav8r wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:51 pm
eyebrow737 wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:02 am

Mastib8r , I didn't say I supported them. I just don't like communist pilots who resort to the form of intimidation and bullying.

You want to talk about a hypocrite? As I have said before, in a fair world westjet would been out of business a long time ago for what you have all contributed to the reputation of a pilot and to our salaries.

Go back and pick up more garbage and tell more bad jokes. You're all only now starting to realize what a piece of crud regional airline you really work for now that the cool aid has dried off... haven't you?

You wanted to be the bottom of the race to the bottom and now some one has taken that away from you... jealous much?
Who’s the bully again, your entire post including how you changed my handle, Hypocrite!
Also, I’m not a WJ pilot, I’m a Jazz pilot who has been undercut by pilots that went to SR, then 10 of them figured they hadn’t screwed over enough pilots, they swooped WJ pilots too.
History is just that, the WJ pilots are doing something now and the majority of them were not there for the initial start up phase you refer to.

wow wow...wait a minute mbav8r: you have a lot of posts in this thread and you are not even a Westjet employee? bro you have way too much free time on your hands. Either that or you are not telling the truth and you actually are a Westjet pilot. If you are not, I feel really sorry for you for being so emotionally involved in a battle where your say does not count. Get a life man. And SR pilots have a better salary than you guys at Jazz. How much do CRJ FOs get paid again? Minimum credit gives FOs something like 1900$ a month after tax. That salary is nothing to be proud of, it's actually pathetic.
That’s the problem with our profession, we have thieves who think it’s ok to take flying from other groups for much less pay, then supposed Pilots who defend those actions and then ones who think it doesn’t affect them so why get involved.
You know, Jazz “new” wages are a reflection of SR and GGN wages. As an 8 year FO, when SR came to be I was making roughly the same hourly pay as SR Captains, about 70/hr. So, the pay has gone up, it doesn’t change the fact they undercut Jazz pilots significantly when they started.
What happens when pilots undercut other pilots, well Jazz used to be 133 aircraft and 940 flights daily and arguably the highest paid regional pilots, at the very least in NA. Now, 735 daily flights and 111 aircraft, soon to be 101 when the last of the CRJ200s leave the fleet. How many aircraft at SR?
There used to be scope, unfortunately shortsightedness by ACPA pilots removed that language and the results are what we have today.
WJ pilots had scope and some thieves would have you believe because WJ management decided to do an end run around that scope, it must’ve been legit. I applaud the WJ pilots for standing up and their willingness to fight for what’s right, unfortunately once the horse is out the barn no arbitration will undo the damage, that’s why tbaylx and his ilk still have a job and stand to gain off the backs of the WJ pilots, sometimes bad deeds do get rewarded. tbaylx is scum and all he can do is try and justify his immoral decision to steal form all the WJ pilots, I for one of many hope he gets his due. I imagine one can get depressed wandering around knowing you’re hated by most of your coworkers.
Johnnyhotrocks, thanks for the laugh this morning! It’s called status pay, lol.
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sicamore
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Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft

Post by sicamore »

mbav8r wrote: Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:12 am WJ pilots had scope and some thieves would have you believe because WJ management decided to do an end run around that scope, it must’ve been legit. I applaud the WJ pilots for standing up and their willingness to fight for what’s right, unfortunately once the horse is out the barn no arbitration will undo the damage, that’s why tbaylx and his ilk still have a job and stand to gain off the backs of the WJ pilots, sometimes bad deeds do get rewarded. tbaylx is scum and all he can do is try and justify his immoral decision to steal form all the WJ pilots, I for one of many hope he gets his due. I imagine one can get depressed wandering around knowing you’re hated by most of your coworkers.
Johnnyhotrocks, thanks for the laugh this morning! It’s called status pay, lol.
It is a very bad profession for this type of behavior and it unnerves me that these methods will slowly move over to other professions when my children are adults further driving down wages.

There is something inherently wrong with the system no doubt and that needs fixing.

The fact that an experienced pilot is held hostage to a company because if they move to another company their wages will drop by half?

The fact that a 777 training captain wants a change of scenery and for him to do that he must now sit right seat in a turboprop to someone half his age with 1/10 of his experience earning what he earned 30 years ago.

What a tremendous waste of resources and talent.

We are being held hostage by the companies and not being able to move in a free market whilst also increasing our income and benefits.

When we are held hostage we can then be easily manipulated.

There is something wrong with the system and it is producing people like mbav8r and tbayix who are just doing their best to survive.

We need to start seeing the forest for the trees as a profession
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Last edited by sicamore on Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
goingnowherefast
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Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft

Post by goingnowherefast »

The WestJet situation has ramifications far beyond WJ it's self. It will impact the whole industry. Every time a CBA is up for negotiations, they look at the competition's rates. WJ lowers the bar, AC management pressures for concessions. Sunwing pilots have a harder time upping their pay, etc. Then it has a trickle down affect through the rest of the industry. Why would Encore pay 90 grand for a captain when his other option is 45 grand at Swoop? Now Encore pay goes down, it causes Jazz to push for concessions. It trickles all the way down to 703.

This may be a WJ issue that only WJ pilots have direct influence over, however every pilot in Canada should be supporting the WJ MEC. Jazz may not be perfect, I don't know the whole 757 story, but let's learn from the mistakes of the past and work to improve the future.
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cloak
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Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft

Post by cloak »

Transonic wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:28 pm
cloak wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:32 pm
Transonic wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:48 pm

Really, would a union do that? Has a pilot union ever decided to give up flying the same aircraft and routes because the rates *offered* were too low?
??? If you mean accepting a lower pay for the same aircraft in the fleet, ACPA did for Rouge.
No, as in decline flying because wages offered were lower. ACPA did not give up Rouge flying because it was less. ACPA pilots fly rouge aircraft.
Ok, are you saying WestJet never offered Swoop flying to its own pilots at a lower rate?
And was ALPA's focus to get the flying first or was it to raise pay across the board? And why didn't it allow for LOAs until things were sorted out? That would have eliminated the need to hire from outside. I'm no expert, but imagine the company had a deadline to keep.
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JTF01
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Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft

Post by JTF01 »

sicamore wrote: Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:07 am . [/u][/b]

There is something wrong with the system and it is producing people like mbav8r and tbayix who are just doing their best to survive.

We need to start seeing the forest for the trees as a profession
tbayix knows exactly what he was doing. He is not doing his best to survive. He's made a decent living for himself and his family in aviation. The sad thing is, there is no reason for him to have done it. He left a rock solid job with the government, with a generous paycheck, pension, far better medical / dental benefits, weekends off, holidays off, where he could be at home with his wife and three young children. He clearly doesn't give a hoot what his peers, former coworkers and former friends think of him. Before his government job, he went through many jobs that guys make a career out of, from Sunwing to Canadian North, to Emirates and Oman Air. Even had he done nothing in his career and stayed with Air Georgian, he'd be making a six figure income and enjoying top seniority. If anything, his personality is known to grate on others and he wears out his welcome quick. If you don't believe me, ask a friendly WS pilot, as there is a thread re him circulating amongst hundreds of them with nary a kind word to be said.

And if he felt the longing for airline flying - why did he leave SW a year and a half ago, where he would have been in the same position (737NG Capt), except with several years seniority. With his qualifications, if he really wanted to get back into airline flying, he could do far far better than Swoop.

I, for one, am STOKED for June 15th, when one of the two things will happen

1. He will turn in his ID badge and be escorted OFF the property
-or-
2. Best case scenario for him, he'll become an FO on the combined WS-Scoop list, and he'll carry his 80000 employee number like a like a Badge of Cowardice the rest of his time here, so that everyone will know that he was willing to stab you in the back for his own benefit.
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Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft

Post by eyebrow737 »

JTF01 wrote: Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:20 am . He is not doing his best to survive. He's made a decent living for
Predictably missed his point entirely and back to pointing fingers and blaming others.

Canadians pilots have some of the worst pay, benefits, vacations, duty and fatigue standards in the western world (not to say third world)

Isn't it time to look at the way we do things and try something different?

Don't tell me that alpa is trying to do something different. They are doing the same thing that has happened time and time again.

It's about time that the pilots here start to take a long hard look at themselves and realise that they are part of the problem.
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Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft

Post by jjj »

cloak wrote: Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:51 am
Transonic wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:28 pm
cloak wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:32 pm

??? If you mean accepting a lower pay for the same aircraft in the fleet, ACPA did for Rouge.
No, as in decline flying because wages offered were lower. ACPA did not give up Rouge flying because it was less. ACPA pilots fly rouge aircraft.
Ok, are you saying WestJet never offered Swoop flying to its own pilots at a lower rate?
And was ALPA's focus to get the flying first or was it to raise pay across the board? And why didn't it allow for LOAs until things were sorted out? That would have eliminated the need to hire from outside. I'm no expert, but imagine the company had a deadline to keep.
Cloak,

The company would only discuss Swoop with the union if they agreed to surrender bargaining rights as granted by part 1 of the labour code.

The union told the company to pound sand and then WestJet started all of its half baked ideas starting with offering internal side-deals.

JJJ
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Last edited by jjj on Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
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