WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft

[tbaylx]

On the same note now that the Swoop positions are being offered to Westjet pilots at Swoop terms and conditions, will no one at Westjet will bid them because it's bringing down the industry and undercutting other 737 operators with bottom feeding wages and anyone there more than a year or two is making more money than a Swoop captain anyway?

Or, will pilots bid the position regardless because for whatever reason it suits their circumstances?

[RidersRule]

On the same note now that the Swoop positions are being offered to Westjet pilots at Swoop terms and conditions, will no one at Westjet will bid them because it's bringing down the industry and undercutting other 737 operators with bottom feeding wages and anyone there more than a year or two is making more money than a Swoop captain anyway?

Or, will pilots bid the position regardless because for whatever reason it suits their circumstances?

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[Transonic]

On the same note now that the Swoop positions are being offered to Westjet pilots at Swoop terms and conditions, will no one at Westjet will bid them because it's bringing down the industry and undercutting other 737 operators with bottom feeding wages and anyone there more than a year or two is making more money than a Swoop captain anyway?

Or, will pilots bid the position regardless because for whatever reason it suits their circumstances?

Those bidding for CA positions will be doing it based on the assumption that pay and working conditions will be much better under the new CBA.

You can thank ALPA in advance for your bump in future FO earnings and conditions.

[Bede]

On the same note now that the Swoop positions are being offered to Westjet pilots at Swoop terms and conditions, will no one at Westjet will bid them because it's bringing down the industry and undercutting other 737 operators with bottom feeding wages and anyone there more than a year or two is making more money than a Swoop captain anyway?

Or, will pilots bid the position regardless because for whatever reason it suits their circumstances?

No, they'll bid it because they have faith that they will be industry standard within a few month. No thanks to you...

[tbaylx]

On the same note now that the Swoop positions are being offered to Westjet pilots at Swoop terms and conditions, will no one at Westjet will bid them because it's bringing down the industry and undercutting other 737 operators with bottom feeding wages and anyone there more than a year or two is making more money than a Swoop captain anyway?

Or, will pilots bid the position regardless because for whatever reason it suits their circumstances?

Those bidding for CA positions will be doing it based on the assumption that pay and working conditions will be much better under the new CBA.

You can thank ALPA in advance for your bump in future FO earnings and conditions.

Much like swoop pilots took the job based on the assumption that it was going to grow and provide good long term pay and working conditions.

[tbaylx]

On the same note now that the Swoop positions are being offered to Westjet pilots at Swoop terms and conditions, will no one at Westjet will bid them because it's bringing down the industry and undercutting other 737 operators with bottom feeding wages and anyone there more than a year or two is making more money than a Swoop captain anyway?

Or, will pilots bid the position regardless because for whatever reason it suits their circumstances?

No, they'll bid it because they have faith that they will be industry standard within a few month. No thanks to you...

Actually the only pay raise so far at Swoop (the yearly bonus) is thanks to the first few OTS guys.

[Rezy]

On the same note now that the Swoop positions are being offered to Westjet pilots at Swoop terms and conditions, will no one at Westjet will bid them because it's bringing down the industry and undercutting other 737 operators with bottom feeding wages and anyone there more than a year or two is making more money than a Swoop captain anyway?

Or, will pilots bid the position regardless because for whatever reason it suits their circumstances?

Those bidding for CA positions will be doing it based on the assumption that pay and working conditions will be much better under the new CBA.

You can thank ALPA in advance for your bump in future FO earnings and conditions.

Much like swoop pilots took the job based on the assumption that it was going to grow and provide good long term pay and working conditions.

So you must be really upset that ALPA is your exclusive bargaining agent now ?

[Legacy]

On the same note now that the Swoop positions are being offered to Westjet pilots at Swoop terms and conditions, will no one at Westjet will bid them because it's bringing down the industry and undercutting other 737 operators with bottom feeding wages and anyone there more than a year or two is making more money than a Swoop captain anyway?

Or, will pilots bid the position regardless because for whatever reason it suits their circumstances?

No, they'll bid it because they have faith that they will be industry standard within a few month. No thanks to you...

Actually the only pay raise so far at Swoop (the yearly bonus) is thanks to the first few OTS guys.

More like the lack of applicants. I believe the bonus idea came in after you were hired. How did you have any part in it?

[jjj]

On the same note now that the Swoop positions are being offered to Westjet pilots at Swoop terms and conditions, will no one at Westjet will bid them because it's bringing down the industry and undercutting other 737 operators with bottom feeding wages and anyone there more than a year or two is making more money than a Swoop captain anyway?

Or, will pilots bid the position regardless because for whatever reason it suits their circumstances?

No, they'll bid it because they have faith that they will be industry standard within a few month. No thanks to you...

Actually the only pay raise so far at Swoop (the yearly bonus) is thanks to the first few OTS guys.

Let's be clear on your contribution to WAWCON as a pilot for the WestJet parent company Tbaylx.

The only reason there is such a pittance being paid to operate a 737 is because of the off the street pilots like you.

ALPA, now your Union - had to give up substantial bargaining capitol just to keep everything under one umbrella. We sacrificed short term gains in this next contract just to keep a firewall in place with consideration for the long game.

You're also likely to see a raise before the summer is out - that too has absolutely nothing to do with the presence of the first OTS hires at WestJet.

So thanks Tbaylx but you can hold off on patting yourself on the back. To summarize - your effective contribution around here is nothing more than a negative.

Kind regards,

JJJ

[WeedPro2000]

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ALPA, now your Union - had to give up substantial bargaining capitol just to keep everything under one umbrella. We sacrificed short term gains in this next contract just to keep a firewall in place with consideration for the long game.
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jjj, with all due respect, you might be letting rhetoric get in the way of the facts. Let's look at your claim in the light of what ALPA has told us.

In order for "short term gains" or "substantial bargaining capit(a)l" to have been given up, those gains must have come from the following list, supplied by ALPA, that shows things already or mostly already agreed to:

Tentatively Agreed

Arbitration
Commuting Policy / Pilot Commuter Travel
Deduction of Dues & Assessments
Flight Safety, Accidents/Incidents
Hotels & Transportation
Management Pilots
Medical Examinations
MISC – Legal
New Equipment
Pilot Recovery Program (LOU)
Preamble
Probation
Relocation Expenses
Training
Travel Privilege and Jumpseat
Discipline/Dismissal

Here is a list of unresolved sections (keep in mind, many of these sections are nearly complete with only a few outstanding issues):

Finalized Language except for a few TBSs (To Be Determined items)

Association Flight Release
Duration
Expenses
Filling of Assignments / Position Bids
General
Grievance
Layoff & Recall
Leaves of Absence
Missing & Internment
Seniority
Sick Leave
Uniforms
Vacation & Statutory Holidays

jjj, can you go through the above list of items and tell me what, exactly, could have been sacrificed to get the Swoop flying? The above list is the list of fluffy things in the agreement? Perhaps we lost one shirt in the uniform allotment to get the Swoop flying? Or was it in the Missing and Internment section?

Alternatively,let us look at the list of items yet to be negtotiated, as indicated by ALPA:

Sections in Progress

Benefits
Deadhead / Crew Rest
Hours of Service
OCD
Pay & Compensation
Pension
Reduced Block Program
Reserve
Scheduling Rules
Scope
Workplace Injury

That is quite a list, jjj. Nothing of import was sacrificed to get the Swoop flying under one list. Rather, WJ successfully outplayed the union by threatening a lock out, and other measures. That is the reason why the outstanding issues have gone to arbitration.

I will let ALPA (update of May 26,2018) explain the state of affairs so that you have a better understanding of why we are here and do not incorrectly assign blame where it does not exist:

From Your MEC

As you are aware, yesterday we signed a deal with WestJet management to take outstanding issues in the contract negotiations to a mediation/interest arbitration process. This decision was not taken lightly but we firmly believe this path will give our pilots the best contract possible in the current situation. If we believed we could have had a better result with a strike or a lockout, that's the course we would have followed. The reality is we would likely have ended up at an arbitrated settlement at some point in the end — but one which we wouldn't have control over, and one which may not have resulted in WestJet pilots flying Swoop. We have been able to get to this point ONLY because of the resolve and unity you have shown. Thank you.



Over the last several days WestJet made it very clear they were going to lock our pilots out if we did not agree to a WestJet version of a Final Offer Selection arbitration settlement. Final Offer Selection arbitration is where one side wins 100% and the other side loses 100%. We rejected their 'offer' as it would have jeopardized the positions we had taken at the table up to this point. A number of factors contributed to our ability to take the strong position that we did, including the financial pressure we have exerted through potential job action and the involvement of the Federal Labour Minister and the head of Federal Mediation and Conciliation Services (FMCS). These factors were integral to getting WestJet to the point where they accepted leaving the ultimate decisions of the working conditions and value of our pilots to an independent and unbiased third party, rather than Clive Beddoe, his senior management, and the Board of Directors.



This process is a legal and legitimate continuation of the negotiations process that have occurred over the last nine months. The mediator will first mediate the outstanding issues in an attempt to reach an agreement; if mediation does not resolve all the outstanding issues, then the mediator will become the arbitrator and will then arbitrate any outstanding issues through interest arbitration. The arbitrator is William Kaplan from Toronto who is highly respected and has a great deal of experience with airlines. The mediation/interest arbitration process will begin at the end of this month and the mediation portion is scheduled to end by June 22nd.



Some of the notable achievements that have been made to date are: Swoop flying will be done by WestJet pilots. 1:1 Years of Service, as well as trip and duty RIGs will be a part of our new contract. Many more improvements to your working conditions have been agreed upon as well. This mediation/interest arbitration process will allow us to complete the Collective Agreement in a timely manner and we believe it will be a contract you will be proud of.



Your Negotiating Committee have done a tremendous job bringing us to this point and will diligently and tirelessly see us through the rest of the process until the contract is complete.


In Unity

Your MEC
Q&A
Here are some answers to questions you may have:



Q. Why has the union agreed to mediation/interest arbitration at this time?

A. Your MEC's first preference has always been to continue free, direct, collective bargaining with WestJet management. However, we agreed to go to mediation-interest arbitration at this time in order to avoid WestJet's threat to lock out our pilots by closing down the airline. We came to this position only after WestJet management agreed that Swoop flying would be covered under our single collective agreement.




Q. Did WestJet Management really threaten to lock out the pilots and close down the airline?

A. Yes. First on May 23, they issued a letter offering us a Final Offer Selection Arbitration process that said they would take economic action against our pilots.


The threats escalated and included:

WestJet would suspend the minimum pay guarantee
WestJet would cancel sick time payments
WestJet would suspend interline travel
WestJet also suggested that it would layoff large numbers of pilots. Finally, they communicated to us that they would lock us out and shut down the whole airline.




Q. What is mediation/interest arbitration?

A. There are generally two types of arbitration. One is Final Offer Selection Arbitration (FOS), which is what WestJet wanted. This style of arbitration limits the power and latitude of the arbitrator to find balanced solutions. With FOS arbitration, one side wins 100% and the other side loses 100%. We completely rejected this approach.


Instead, we agreed to a mediation/interest-arbitration process that at first keeps us at the table with the assistance of a mediator. Issues NOT resolved through mediation are then resolved by interest arbitration for binding resolution. This type of arbitration gives the arbitrator the ability and control over each outstanding issue to shape a reasonable resolution rather than being bound by a win/lose format. Also, in our case, the mediator and the arbitrator will be the same person.





Q. Does this process cancel the strike/lockout options?

A. Yes, now there is an agreement to do mediation-arbitration, it will not be legal for the company to lock out our pilots or for us to go on strike.





Q. With a 91% vote to authorize strike action, why did the MEC not engage in job action to put pressure on WestJet?

A. We appreciate the support from our pilots. We understand that many people voted "yes" to give us the authority to engage in strike action to ensure that WestJet flying would be done by WestJet pilots. It has now been agreed that all the WestJet flying at Swoop will be covered under our collective agreement. We will now be negotiating with the assistance of the mediator-arbitrator on the rates of pay and work rules to cover Swoop. Our goal is to have the same rates of pay and to minimize the differences between WestJet and Swoop working conditions.




Q. Why did the MEC give up the right to strike?

A. The 91% strike vote authorization provided us with the leverage we needed to bring us to this process, which we believe will bring the best possible outcome for our pilots. We promised that we would be very careful with the responsibility you gave us and we were. After evaluating the situation carefully, we feel that going on strike would not have brought us as good of an outcome as we will achieve through this process.





Q. Why did we decide to agree to mediation/interest-based arbitration instead of letting WestJet lock us out?

A. We were ready to take the fight down the strike/lockout road, but we felt that the interest-based mediation/arbitration process that we negotiated going forward will bring our members a better result. The Canada Labour Code provides for balance between the economic harm from the strike/lockout to the company and the employees. We believe WestJet, as directed by Clive Beddoe and the Board of Directors, was willing to significantly harm the business in order to avoid coming to a fair agreement with the pilots. We firmly believe that a neutral arbitrator will award the pilots a fair contract based on our fair and reasonable proposals in the context of the broader aviation industry.




Q. What happens to the approximately 30 pilots that Swoop has employed?

A. The issues encompassing these pilots will be resolved through the mediation/interest arbitration process.




Q. Who will be the mediator-arbitrator?

A. The mediator-arbitrator we agreed to is William Kaplan. He is a very well respected and experienced arbitrator, with extensive experience in the aviation industry.




Q. How long will the mediation/interest-arbitration process last?

A. Mediation is planned to last till June 22. By June 15, the outstanding details of Swoop must be completed. If any issues related to our collective agreement remain unresolved at noon on June 22, any remaining issues will be determined by the Mediator/Arbitrator.




Q. Are the MEC and Negotiating Committee satisfied with the present state of affairs?

A. Yes, all things considered, we believe this is the best possible position our pilots could be in. We have gone to great lengths to support all of our positions at the table, including economic costing. We know very well where we stand and are confident an independent arbitrator will understand as well.

[Rezy]

WeedPro - what has ALPA done so far?
1:1 YOS - something the WJPA admittedly could never get.
Trip & Duty Rigs - something the WJPA admittedly could never get.

So a 2 year captain is going to see about a $45 per hour raise already. More good things to come.

[jjj]

"That is quite a list, jjj. Nothing of import was sacrificed to get the Swoop flying under one list. Rather, WJ successfully outplayed the union by threatening a lock out, and other measures. That is the reason why the outstanding issues have gone to arbitration."

Yes the company outplayed the union by stooping to a new low i.e. illegal lockout and other very real threats such as not paying sick leave or allowing interline travel - the list goes on. Lest we forget it was the antics of the company that made the Labour Minister show up.

Rather than sit at the table and sort this out like adults where nobody has to wave the big stick - we are in an arbitration situation. I believe we had a shot at closing the gap with AC. Now I expect a B scale for Tbaylx etc. Some will see an upside, the scale of Swoop will likely end in a cost neutral agreement for the company I expect.

Hmmm, if only the hiring ban was more effective and the likes of Tbaylx et al had stayed away - what would the situation look like now?

Pay and compensation is being decided under a very different framework and so far Encore is under the bus. That second item is not the will of ALPA.

For your consideration WP2000.

JJJ

[Demeter]

This last year has been such a crap show and really Rezy I don’t think yos is really that much of a victory as it was a natural progression in my mind anyway. The funds allocated to that will now come from somewhere else. Just like your own budget at home.There is a lot on the list that is very concerning and quite frankly Alpa owns a lion share of this failure. Spin on, spin on! Now back to watching the forum regulars complain about seniority (something the OC promised would never come btw)

[WeedPro2000]

I don’t know how you can call a lockout illegal. It isn’t. The company chose to threaten a response to a credible external threat, a strike. What would you as a business person do in the face of a strike? Slowly watch bookings evaporate?

[jjj]

A legal lockout requires the same notice a job action does. It sets yet another clock for bargaining. That rule was not respected by the Corp.

JJJ

[jjj]

Oh and they were going to immediately lay off all FAs as well...

[jjj]

Oh well.

I accept my fate under arbitration - not much choice there.

I support the actions of the MEC thus far.

I don’t like how the likes of Tbaylx come across as innocent bystanders and/or positive contributors to life under the WestJet parent company.

You want harmony in the workplace Tbaylx??? Help yourself by changing your tune because you’re not making any friends thus far.

Perhaps I shouldn't paint all OTS Swoopsters with the same brush. Difficult part is I have yet to hear of a story (including yours Tbaylx) that brings any humanity to the table and changes anyone's perception.

JJJ

[RidersRule]

This last year has been such a crap show and really Rezy I don’t think yos is really that much of a victory as it was a natural progression in my mind anyway. The funds allocated to that will now come from somewhere else.

Ah see, that’s the old WJPA way of thinking.

“Here is 20 million, allocate it how you want guys”.

That’s not a negotiation. That’s an allowance.

I’ll wait and see how the arbitrator rules, but from what I have seen so far this agreement is looking very good. YOS adds about $50 an hour right off the bat to my paycheque going off our old scales( but maybe the scales changed).

Trip and duty rigs are coming which should equate to less days(but maybe the blocking window will change).

Sounds like STD has been taken care of, that’s $300 a month extra in my jeans. LTD is TBD.

I am cautiously optimistic that this is going to work out pretty well. But then I’m a glass half full kind of guy.

This I do know, the WJPA reps told me in person, they would never get us a YOS. That is the only thing that we do know for sure. The rest, up too Mr Kaplan.

[cloak]

...
This I do know, the WJPA reps told me in person, they would never get us a YOS. That is the only thing that we do know for sure. The rest, up too Mr Kaplan.

What does that mean? A 4th year FO upgrading goes to 4th year captain instead of year one (like AC)? And is that for mainline only?

[Demeter]

This last year has been such a crap show and really Rezy I don’t think yos is really that much of a victory as it was a natural progression in my mind anyway. The funds allocated to that will now come from somewhere else.

Ah see, that’s the old WJPA way of thinking.

“Here is 20 million, allocate it how you want guys”.

That’s not a negotiation. That’s an allowance.

I’ll wait and see how the arbitrator rules, but from what I have seen so far this agreement is looking very good. YOS adds about $50 an hour right off the bat to my paycheque going off our old scales( but maybe the scales changed).

Trip and duty rigs are coming which should equate to less days(but maybe the blocking window will change).

Sounds like STD has been taken care of, that’s $300 a month extra in my jeans. LTD is TBD.

I am cautiously optimistic that this is going to work out pretty well. But then I’m a glass half full kind of guy.

This I do know, the WJPA reps told me in person, they would never get us a YOS. That is the only thing that we do know for sure. The rest, up too Mr Kaplan.

And goodies like seniority for reserve and part time gone and timebank gone and more! Not so fun. This from the mec. Yup. I’ll stick to my gut here and let’s revisit this comment of yours in a couple months when the agreement rolls out.there will be some crap in this agreement not the unicorn the OC was promising. while we are at it I think it will be a 4 year deal.