They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

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snowcone
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Re: They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

Post by snowcone »

Victory wrote: Tue May 29, 2018 6:38 pm What happens if the government orders an employee group back to work and they don't go? They all go to jail?

You could do what ACPA did and just all call in sick. There are many reasons why one may not be fit to fly, mentally included. The threat of company action affecting one's family is enough to keep you head out of the FD.
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snowcone
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Re: They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

Post by snowcone »

RustyDeuce wrote: Wed May 30, 2018 8:38 pm
KAG wrote: Wed May 30, 2018 6:49 pm
tbaylx wrote: Tue May 29, 2018 7:21 pm I mentioned this when the strike vote happened but a strike vote is not a just a negotiation tool, as was repeated here a few times. It has real and immediate consequences to the company. WestJet was losing millions in bookings under the threat of a strike. Did the pilot group really think that WestJet would continue to operate under that threat, losing bookings indefinitely? Sooner or later the board of directors was going to move end this. It’s not out of spite, it’s to prevent indefinite further financial harm. Board members don’t act out of spite and like a “baby” to get revenge.
How long would the solidarity have lasted if 200 pilots were laid off and the rest locked out while the core flying was being done by encore and some leased wide bodies. An arbitrator was always where this was going to end up. Hopefully the gains made are worth the costs to the company in the end.
The real sad thing about all this, all of this could have been avoided with cola and a small give last contract. As for encore picking up the slack that's laughable as they cant complete their own flying as they're already overworked and canceling flights daily due to crew shortages (attrition to AC). I also think the traveling public would still just book elsewhere if we were locked out and some random WB operator tried to fill in, the end result would be a loss of bookings; zero sum gain there.
Food for thought, who put out the original press release for swoop? Clive did. He's been silent for years before that point. I thought CEOs were for that...

As for compensation, it's a sore point. Sure our T4s look amazing but so does a 90s mustang with a 4 cylinder under the hood, lacks the 5.0 v8 power of a real 200k paycheck.😉
Food for thought, bookings were down 20% at its worst. That led to the decision to lock out pilots. Locking out the pilots and shutting down the airline was a more palatable solution than continuing to watch bookings crater and let pilots be completely unreasonable in their demands.ALPA's demands were so stupidly expensive even they didn't realize how costly they were until their own people came in to see how much it would cost.

I'm not sure what is to celebrate at this point in time.

Expensive? If Air Canada can do it why can't West Jet. Why do we have to settle for less just to be "competitive"?
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Novato
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Re: They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

Post by Novato »

Quick question,

If WS would have locked out the pilots, would their current agreement be null and void and WS could make WAWCOM what ever they want?
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TFTMB heavy
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Re: They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

Post by TFTMB heavy »

RustyDeuce wrote: Wed May 30, 2018 8:42 pm
TFTMB heavy wrote: Wed May 30, 2018 1:15 pm
arctic_slim wrote: Wed May 30, 2018 10:39 am I still find it very hard to believe that CB and/or the bod would "shut down" the airline. A very successful profitable airline shut down and closing shop over this? In my opinion Westjet has played alpa good. But I am also glad to see this come to an end. Everyone can move on and keep the airline(s) running.
Only thing a union can do when faced with this kind of threat is call the bluff.
IF it's the only thing to do why didn't the union call the bluff? Maybe because it wasn't.
Maybe because they got the Swoop flying? Nobody knows what really went down besides the people at the table.
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Re: They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

Post by TFTMB heavy »

RustyDeuce wrote: Wed May 30, 2018 8:38 pm
KAG wrote: Wed May 30, 2018 6:49 pm
tbaylx wrote: Tue May 29, 2018 7:21 pm I mentioned this when the strike vote happened but a strike vote is not a just a negotiation tool, as was repeated here a few times. It has real and immediate consequences to the company. WestJet was losing millions in bookings under the threat of a strike. Did the pilot group really think that WestJet would continue to operate under that threat, losing bookings indefinitely? Sooner or later the board of directors was going to move end this. It’s not out of spite, it’s to prevent indefinite further financial harm. Board members don’t act out of spite and like a “baby” to get revenge.
How long would the solidarity have lasted if 200 pilots were laid off and the rest locked out while the core flying was being done by encore and some leased wide bodies. An arbitrator was always where this was going to end up. Hopefully the gains made are worth the costs to the company in the end.
The real sad thing about all this, all of this could have been avoided with cola and a small give last contract. As for encore picking up the slack that's laughable as they cant complete their own flying as they're already overworked and canceling flights daily due to crew shortages (attrition to AC). I also think the traveling public would still just book elsewhere if we were locked out and some random WB operator tried to fill in, the end result would be a loss of bookings; zero sum gain there.
Food for thought, who put out the original press release for swoop? Clive did. He's been silent for years before that point. I thought CEOs were for that...

As for compensation, it's a sore point. Sure our T4s look amazing but so does a 90s mustang with a 4 cylinder under the hood, lacks the 5.0 v8 power of a real 200k paycheck.😉
Food for thought, bookings were down 20% at its worst. That led to the decision to lock out pilots. Locking out the pilots and shutting down the airline was a more palatable solution than continuing to watch bookings crater and let pilots be completely unreasonable in their demands.ALPA's demands were so stupidly expensive even they didn't realize how costly they were until their own people came in to see how much it would cost.

I'm not sure what is to celebrate at this point in time.
There is someone from Washington sitting at the table with her laptop and she's the one that costs all demands from ALPA and analyses the company's proposals as well.
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Mach1
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Re: They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

Post by Mach1 »

RustyDeuce wrote: Wed May 30, 2018 8:38 pm ... and let pilots be completely unreasonable in their demands.ALPA's demands were so stupidly expensive even they didn't realize how costly they were until their own people came in to see how much it would cost.
What, exactly, was the pilot group asking for? I've tried to find out and no one will say. Since you know, why don't you tell us what the unreasonable demands were so we all know.
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cjet
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Re: They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

Post by cjet »

YOS, trip and duty rigs, DH inside the block and cost of living raises going forward. That's what we've asked for and that's mostly been agree to already. All industry standard stuff that WJ pilots have not had before.

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Canadianjetpilot
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Re: They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

Post by Canadianjetpilot »

YOS - asking for industry standard
Crew Rest and Duty - asking for international standard ( as used voluntarily by other Canadian airlines as opposed to Canada's current archaic regs)
Trip Rigs - asking for industry standard
Payscales - that meet the same established scales by airlines with similar types and areas of Ops. ie. ETOPS, NAT, and soon to be long haul.
Offloading of cost of STD and LTD - in alignment with other operators.

To name a few.

There were no 'silly' requests being made. Items were costed with reasonable accuracy by ALPA with the use of their extensive source material and resources.

WJA just admitted under pressure form the minister( because WJA refused to show it to the MEC) that the 1.5Billion costing they came with was from applying some item costs to ALL 12,000 westjet employees with the argument that whatever they do for the pilots they have to do for everybody else. This is representative of the mentality the MEC has been dealing with.

From witnesses in the room the Minister's reaction was one of "restrained bewilderment".
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Canadianjetpilot
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Re: They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

Post by Canadianjetpilot »

Double Post
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cloak
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Re: They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

Post by cloak »

KAG wrote: Wed May 30, 2018 6:49 pm ... Sure our T4s look amazing but so does a 90s mustang with a 4 cylinder under the hood, lacks the 5.0 v8 power of a real 200k paycheck.😉
If not too personal an info, how is T4 income different from real income? It's money that came in either as pay or profit sharing or shares, etc.
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Rezy
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Re: They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

Post by Rezy »

cloak wrote: Thu May 31, 2018 3:26 pm
KAG wrote: Wed May 30, 2018 6:49 pm ... Sure our T4s look amazing but so does a 90s mustang with a 4 cylinder under the hood, lacks the 5.0 v8 power of a real 200k paycheck.😉
If not too personal an info, how is T4 income different from real income? It's money that came in either as pay or profit sharing or shares, etc.
It all comes down to the tax system. Because of the pay structure a WJ pilot will pay more income tax on a 200k T4 than a typical worker making 200k. And most of that comes down to paying income tax on ESP as opposed to deferring income tax in a tax deferred saving vessel such as a RRSP or Pension. WJ Pilots are also paying significant amounts for disability, which other companies typically pay. When a company pays your disability benefits, they also pay the tax on it so it doesn’t show up on your T4. So those are the biggest factors that inflate a WJ Pilot T4.
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Re: They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

Post by Rezy »

Canadianjetpilot wrote: Thu May 31, 2018 2:09 pm
WJA just admitted under pressure form the minister( because WJA refused to show it to the MEC) that the 1.5Billion costing they came with was from applying some item costs to ALL 12,000 westjet employees with the argument that whatever they do for the pilots they have to do for everybody else. This is representative of the mentality the MEC has been dealing with.

From witnesses in the room the Minister's reaction was one of "restrained bewilderment".
This is why an arbitrator is necessary for these negotiations to continue. No longer will WJ be able to invent figures without backing them up. The arbitrator will demand to know how they calculate their numbers, and the company will have to provide them to the arbitrator. Not necessarily the ALPA MEC, but if the company wants to provide data in arbitration, it will be the arbitrators responsibility to determine the accuracy and they are entitled to view all the data and figures (privately). This is why arbitration will result in a big win for WJ Pilots.
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Mach1
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Re: They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

Post by Mach1 »

Rezy wrote: Thu May 31, 2018 5:23 pm It all comes down to the tax system. Because of the pay structure a WJ pilot will pay more income tax on a 200k T4 than a typical worker making 200k. And most of that comes down to paying income tax on ESP as opposed to deferring income tax in a tax deferred saving vessel such as a RRSP or Pension.
That can be remedied by placing your ESP into a tax sheltered account like an RRSP. So, that is not true.
Rezy wrote: Thu May 31, 2018 5:23 pm WJ Pilots are also paying significant amounts for disability, which other companies typically pay. When a company pays your disability benefits, they also pay the tax on it so it doesn’t show up on your T4. So those are the biggest factors that inflate a WJ Pilot T4.
That is true... the short term and long term disability payments are a large deduction on the cheques.
cloak wrote: Thu May 31, 2018 3:26 pm If not too personal an info, how is T4 income different from real income? It's money that came in either as pay or profit sharing or shares, etc.
There is no single and simple answer to that question. We have an ESP program that involves matching. The company will match up to 20% of your pay in shares if you contribute 20% of your pay to buying shares that is then locked up in your ESP account for 12 months until you can sell them (just like every other ESP program in every other company in every other industry). Just to make it easy, I'm going to refer to the ESP as a savings account from here on.
You are taking 40% of your pay and putting it into a savings account for 1 year:
Now you are living on 60% of your pay:
But, you are taxed on 100% of your pay and you are also taxed on the companies 20% contribution to your savings account. Let's say you are paying 40% in taxes, that 40% in taxes comes off of the remaining 60% of the paycheque you receive:
Now you are taking home around 20% of your gross wage:
Out of that 20% come the other deductions like EI, CPP, and benefits:
THIS is why the take home pay at WestJet is low and why people complain about it:
The HR department did a great job of explaining this to people once upon a time but it seems that they have failed to do that or people have failed to understand what they were signing onto.

Okay, 12 months later you can save or sell any, all or proportion your savings (ESP) in any manner you choose. If you need more income or you want to pay off a mortgage or any number of things you can do that, you can save for retirement, you can buy other properties or investments to have your money make more money.... but you have to be willing to accept that you are taking a lower cheque today to get a higher one tomorrow:
Once you start selling your ESP, you may have to pay capital gains tax on any increase in share prices that have happened between buying the shares and selling them:
More taxes, but only if you make a profit:
You can also write off any losses if you happen to sell at a loss... and offset those losses against your future gains.

At the end of the day, all of your income from pay and investments winds up on line 150 of your tax form and you made a lot of money on paper while you are actually living on 20-25% of your wages for your first year worked at the company... everything after that is personal choices.

One place that really does hurt us is that line 150 of the tax return is what is used to calculate things like child support and spousal support in a divorce.

It can look bad but, if you save the money, reinvest and take the time and energy to manage your investments you can and will come out of the job a multi-millionaire as so many have already done. A young guy in the captains seat can be saving $70k a year... in 10 years that's $700K without growth or loss and with a modest 5% growth that comes in just a shade under $1Mil in 10 years.
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Re: They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

Post by Mostly Harmless »

Where can I order 10 billion Joo Janta 200 Super-Chromatic Peril Sensitive Sunglasses that have been specially designed to help people develop a relaxed attitude to danger. At the first hint of trouble, they turn totally black and thus prevent you from seeing anything that might alarm you.

Seriously people...
Image
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cloak
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Re: They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

Post by cloak »

Thank you for the explanation.
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rudder
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Re: They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

Post by rudder »

Mach1 wrote: Thu May 31, 2018 5:53 pm
Rezy wrote: Thu May 31, 2018 5:23 pm It all comes down to the tax system. Because of the pay structure a WJ pilot will pay more income tax on a 200k T4 than a typical worker making 200k. And most of that comes down to paying income tax on ESP as opposed to deferring income tax in a tax deferred saving vessel such as a RRSP or Pension.
That can be remedied by placing your ESP into a tax sheltered account like an RRSP. So, that is not true.
Rezy wrote: Thu May 31, 2018 5:23 pm WJ Pilots are also paying significant amounts for disability, which other companies typically pay. When a company pays your disability benefits, they also pay the tax on it so it doesn’t show up on your T4. So those are the biggest factors that inflate a WJ Pilot T4.
That is true... the short term and long term disability payments are a large deduction on the cheques.
cloak wrote: Thu May 31, 2018 3:26 pm If not too personal an info, how is T4 income different from real income? It's money that came in either as pay or profit sharing or shares, etc.
There is no single and simple answer to that question. We have an ESP program that involves matching. The company will match up to 20% of your pay in shares if you contribute 20% of your pay to buying shares that is then locked up in your ESP account for 12 months until you can sell them (just like every other ESP program in every other company in every other industry). Just to make it easy, I'm going to refer to the ESP as a savings account from here on.
You are taking 40% of your pay and putting it into a savings account for 1 year:
Now you are living on 60% of your pay:
But, you are taxed on 100% of your pay and you are also taxed on the companies 20% contribution to your savings account. Let's say you are paying 40% in taxes, that 40% in taxes comes off of the remaining 60% of the paycheque you receive:
Now you are taking home around 20% of your gross wage:
Out of that 20% come the other deductions like EI, CPP, and benefits:
THIS is why the take home pay at WestJet is low and why people complain about it:
The HR department did a great job of explaining this to people once upon a time but it seems that they have failed to do that or people have failed to understand what they were signing onto.

Okay, 12 months later you can save or sell any, all or proportion your savings (ESP) in any manner you choose. If you need more income or you want to pay off a mortgage or any number of things you can do that, you can save for retirement, you can buy other properties or investments to have your money make more money.... but you have to be willing to accept that you are taking a lower cheque today to get a higher one tomorrow:
Once you start selling your ESP, you may have to pay capital gains tax on any increase in share prices that have happened between buying the shares and selling them:
More taxes, but only if you make a profit:
You can also write off any losses if you happen to sell at a loss... and offset those losses against your future gains.

At the end of the day, all of your income from pay and investments winds up on line 150 of your tax form and you made a lot of money on paper while you are actually living on 20-25% of your wages for your first year worked at the company... everything after that is personal choices.

One place that really does hurt us is that line 150 of the tax return is what is used to calculate things like child support and spousal support in a divorce.

It can look bad but, if you save the money, reinvest and take the time and energy to manage your investments you can and will come out of the job a multi-millionaire as so many have already done. A young guy in the captains seat can be saving $70k a year... in 10 years that's $700K without growth or loss and with a modest 5% growth that comes in just a shade under $1Mil in 10 years.
Meanwhile, there are other pilot groups with T4 $200k (simply wages including overtime), company pension contribution (DB or DC), and tax free expenses which can all add up to closer to $250k+.

What matters is net. The formula you use to get there doesn’t matter as much as what you have at the end. Net pay. Net retirement. Net expenses. Bills are paid in $$ not concepts.

I presume that the WJ pilots will propose the system that works best for themselves yet leaves them at or near the net amount of their peers.
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Re: They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

Post by Mach1 »

The person asked for an explanation of the pay system, I provided one.
rudder wrote: Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:24 pm What matters (<- To you) is net. The formula you use to get there doesn’t matter as much as what you have at the end. Net pay. Net retirement. Net expenses. Bills are paid in $$ not concepts.
I agree, that is really important, to you. Therefore you should be working at a place that offers that to you and not accept a job at a place that does not. I mean, that's just crazy to go to work at a place that doesn't offer what you are looking for and then expect everyone else to bend to your will. And if no one applies because of that pay model, then the model gets changed to attract the people.
rudder wrote: Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:24 pm I presume that the WJ pilots will propose the system that works best for themselves yet leaves them at or near the net amount of their peers.
Since it's all in the hands of the arbitrator now, who knows how this will all unfold.

If you are working at WJ and you hate it this much and are this angry, go where you will be happy. It's a choice. It's a choice you made and only you can make. I'm tired of listening to the angry people who made the choice to come to WJ. Yes, the working conditions need improvement but it really doesn't deserve this much anger and bitching. Life is too short to spend 30 years at a place you hate instead of one you envy.
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Re: They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

Post by lostaviator »

True, we all decide where we work. But lots of people signed up back in the good old days which I personally consider to have ended as recent as a few years ago.

Having 40% of your T4 tied to a single companies stock is/could be great if your executive knows how to run an airline, execute products, and treat their employees properly.

T4s are great and all BUT we are currently losing money. We pay tax on a huge amount of extra unseen income and the result is an even greater loss when the stock goes down because we have paid income tax on all that $hit. The investment community is terrified about the path our company is treading down. For every 9 questions about their plans, theres 1 about our negotiations.

This isn’t the place we signed up to work so now the game plan changes. Hopefully we get back on track
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Re: They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

Post by IKEA_Monkey »

lostaviator wrote: Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:58 pm This isn’t the place we signed up to work so now the game plan changes. Hopefully we get back on track
As a banged up Marsellus Wallace would say "Nah man. I'm pretty fuckin' far from okay."

ALPA has wrestled a lit match from the hands of an individual standing in room soaked with gasoline dead set on burning the whole house down. Disaster was narrowly averted but serious arguments remain that clearly won't be resolved amicably. Throughout all this the company continues to spew their hatred towards the greedy pilots by whatever means possible. If the "WestJet culture" was dead before, what remains is extremely malodorous.

Despite making every effort to disenfranchise 1,500 WestJet pilots, the company is doing all it can to honor the 30 or so recently hired Swoop pilots. Why?! Because their existence is just another snub to the larger pilot group. They may very well go to the bottom of the seniority list but that is of little consolation to the WestJet FO's hoping for an upgrade or any of the 500+ Encore pilots striving to just step foot on the property. For an airline that prides itself on taking care of "owners" they are doing everything possible to make everyone's lives miserable. So much for having a cohesive employee group. What a fucked up place this has become.

Now Encore pilots are gearing up for their own negotiations. Any guess on how that's going to go?! While all the attention has been on westjet pilots proper, if they don't resolve the situation at Encore our whole operation and growth strategy will be at risk. One more significant hiring wave and whatever experience is left will be gone. An endless stream of 250 hour wonders will not plug the resulting gap. I don't know how risky it is to operate a Q400 with a combined 2500 hours in the cockpit, but WestJet it appears is determined to try it out.

I just don't know anymore. I used to feel very optimistic about this company despite some of the headwinds we currently face or the challenges surrounding our representation. But I no longer have any faith in our executive leadership. Playing employee groups off each other? Threatening to shutdown a profitable airline? Throw 14,000 people out of work? Jeopardize our retirement savings? Literally chasing pilots away while running blindly into a pilot shortage? Who the hell is in charge of this crazy plane? When will someone take control?
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Re: They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

Post by aerobod »

IKEA_Monkey wrote: Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:11 pm Threatening to shutdown a profitable airline? Throw 14,000 people out of work?
The threat was a lockout until the dispute was settled, which would be a lot more beneficial to the company as a whole as it would be difficult to continue operations, the operational shutdown would be more structured than with having to respond to a strike, employees not directly involved with the dispute would be able to claim EI and cash could be conserved in a more controlled manner to minimize damage to the company finances. The effect on guests would also be a bit more controlled with a 72 hour operational wind down to the lockout.
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