They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

[FenceSitter]

[*]http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/westjet ... -1.4676957

Clive hates unions that much. Westjet 'cares' that much about its employees. Wow.

1) Did the MEC make the right decision? My answer is yes. They did the best they could in a difficult situation with a nearly impossible negotiating partner.

2) Why would Ed lead up with his story about Ansett just before this news comes out? My answer is he was foreshadowing the path they were taking with ALPA so as to "soften the blow" to the other employees when this cruel and illogical decision was made. It tells me that they were far more serious about shutting the airline down that ALPA was with their potential strike.

3) How does Brad Armitage sleep at night knowing he almost cost thousands of Westjetters their livelihoods? My answer is probably very soundly.

4) The pilots were potentially going to strike to defend their futures and their families. What is the reasoning behind the lockout? My answer is it comes straight from the top, this is Clive...100%. Anyone who has worked at WJ long enough has heard the threats of closing the airline down if unions come in from his own mouth at the old culture chats. It sounded so ridiculous that the claim that stuck with many of us was the loss of PS, interline privileges and other benefits. He has said it many times to hundreds of us.

I have many other questions and answers but am looking forward to hearing from as many of you as possible in response to those 4 questions. Whichever side of the fence you are on, the lockout was going to screw you. A pilot can cross the line and live with the consequences to get a paycheque. That same pilot can't cross the line in the case of a lockout. Everyone is screwed then while Clive gets his pound of flesh. This can not be spun. It can't be ignored. Get your language to protect yourself, your families and your colleagues. The Chair of WEA was going to do this to you...they can't help and we're not going to either. In my opinion, Westjet just showed why every single department at the company needs a contract.

[rudder]

It is obvious that the Minister of Labour and FMCS were hands on and directly involved at the end. I suspect that the Minister made it clear to both sides that whatever action they took would be quickly replaced with legislation including binding arbitration. So, effectively all of the ‘self help’ tools were neutered.

So, it would appear that if you are an airline pilot in Canada - regardless of the party in power in Ottawa - your choices are to either capitulate at the bargaining table or to accept binding arbitration.

[DropTanks]

It is obvious that the Minister of Labour and FMCS were hands on and directly involved at the end. I suspect that the Minister made it clear to both sides that whatever action they took would be quickly replaced with legislation including binding arbitration. So, effectively all of the ‘self help’ tools were neutered.

So, it would appear that if you are an airline pilot in Canada - regardless of the party in power in Ottawa - your choices are to either capitulate at the bargaining table or to accept binding arbitration.

Not at all how it went down. The Minister stepped in to stop the Lockout, not a strike.

[Mostly Harmless]

How did Airline become an essential service. I get that police, ambulance and medical staff are essential. People could die if they don't show up to work. Who ever died because they missed their holiday?

[mbav8r]

It is obvious that the Minister of Labour and FMCS were hands on and directly involved at the end. I suspect that the Minister made it clear to both sides that whatever action they took would be quickly replaced with legislation including binding arbitration. So, effectively all of the ‘self help’ tools were neutered.

So, it would appear that if you are an airline pilot in Canada - regardless of the party in power in Ottawa - your choices are to either capitulate at the bargaining table or to accept binding arbitration.

Not at all how it went down. The Minister stepped in to stop the Lockout, not a strike.

If the minister stepped in to stop a lockout, do you think they would’ve stood on the sidelines for a strike.

[infiniteregulus]

How did Airline become an essential service. I get that police, ambulance and medical staff are essential. People could die if they don't show up to work. Who ever died because they missed their holiday?

It's directly linked with the economy

[Victory]

What happens if the government orders an employee group back to work and they don't go? They all go to jail?

[Legacy]

If Clive is at the heart of this whole lockout, and if it's true he wanted to lockout the pilots because he is being a baby, then obviously he isn't looking after the share holders best interest. Isn't there a legal means as to removing him from the position outside the voting process?

[tbaylx]

I mentioned this when the strike vote happened but a strike vote is not a just a negotiation tool, as was repeated here a few times. It has real and immediate consequences to the company. WestJet was losing millions in bookings under the threat of a strike. Did the pilot group really think that WestJet would continue to operate under that threat, losing bookings indefinitely? Sooner or later the board of directors was going to move end this. It’s not out of spite, it’s to prevent indefinite further financial harm. Board members don’t act out of spite and like a “baby” to get revenge.
How long would the solidarity have lasted if 200 pilots were laid off and the rest locked out while the core flying was being done by encore and some leased wide bodies. An arbitrator was always where this was going to end up. Hopefully the gains made are worth the costs to the company in the end.

[Mostly Harmless]

It's directly linked with the economy

But not a free market economy. Because government interference with the workings of a company, any company, means it is no longer free. It's a controlled economy.

Honestly, if we just let the company and the employees fight it out, how long do you think it would last? No income on both sides? There would be a lot of motivation to reach a deal. But nope.... people might die if they don't get to go on vacation so the nanny state dictates the terms to both sides and unionizing is pointless because you can't bargain your way to a better life, you now have to take what is imposed upon you.

[confusedalot]

By reading the thread, Westjet sounds like a sweatshop.

Then I started poking around a keyboard on the web, only in an attempt to understand the situation. What I see is a set of working conditions and compensation that are about 25-30% less than the legacy american carriers, about 10% less than big red. And a bit higher than rouge. The US situation is on a HUGE roll that dwarfs the rest of the world.

Not ideal, but far from sweatshop conditions. As painful as it sounds, the overwhelmingly vast majority of working stiffs do not even come close to current Westjet pay levels. That includes many highly skilled and experienced employees in highly specialized fields.

So..........is the aim to get legacy US carrier conditions? I suspect that the answer is yes.

Therefore I have a question; can Westjet, which operates in canada, support US pay levels, which are actually superior to air canada levels, and make a go of it?

You've got attempted expansion with 787's to serve international markets, and you've got the swoop thing which to my mind is nothing more than a reaction to rouge and potential competition like jetlines (my gut tells me it will never happen) and flair (which will probably go the same way as canjet)

[Legacy]

We will never ever get US legacy carrier pay and we know that. That would equate to probably double or current rates taking into account the exchange rate. As for Rouge, I would bet when all said and done they probably still get paid better than is. As for AC, taking into account everything, not just the current hourly rates, I would bet they are 20-30% above us.

[aeroncasuperchief]

Airline captain pay should be capped at $200,000/Yr. The average Doctor is 180,000. It doesn't take a brain surgeon ( $442,000.00/Yr. ) to fly a plane

[Legacy]

Airline captain pay should be capped at $200,000/Yr. The average Doctor is 180,000. It doesn't take a brain surgeon ( $442,000.00/Yr. ) to fly a plane

Unless your a neurosurgeon in the States at 6 mill a year!

[arctic_slim]

I still find it very hard to believe that CB and/or the bod would "shut down" the airline. A very successful profitable airline shut down and closing shop over this? In my opinion Westjet has played alpa good. But I am also glad to see this come to an end. Everyone can move on and keep the airline(s) running.

[TFTMB heavy]

I still find it very hard to believe that CB and/or the bod would "shut down" the airline. A very successful profitable airline shut down and closing shop over this? In my opinion Westjet has played alpa good. But I am also glad to see this come to an end. Everyone can move on and keep the airline(s) running.

Only thing a union can do when faced with this kind of threat is call the bluff.

[KAG]

I mentioned this when the strike vote happened but a strike vote is not a just a negotiation tool, as was repeated here a few times. It has real and immediate consequences to the company. WestJet was losing millions in bookings under the threat of a strike. Did the pilot group really think that WestJet would continue to operate under that threat, losing bookings indefinitely? Sooner or later the board of directors was going to move end this. It’s not out of spite, it’s to prevent indefinite further financial harm. Board members don’t act out of spite and like a “baby” to get revenge.
How long would the solidarity have lasted if 200 pilots were laid off and the rest locked out while the core flying was being done by encore and some leased wide bodies. An arbitrator was always where this was going to end up. Hopefully the gains made are worth the costs to the company in the end.

The real sad thing about all this, all of this could have been avoided with cola and a small give last contract. As for encore picking up the slack that's laughable as they cant complete their own flying as they're already overworked and canceling flights daily due to crew shortages (attrition to AC). I also think the traveling public would still just book elsewhere if we were locked out and some random WB operator tried to fill in, the end result would be a loss of bookings; zero sum gain there.
Food for thought, who put out the original press release for swoop? Clive did. He's been silent for years before that point. I thought CEOs were for that...

As for compensation, it's a sore point. Sure our T4s look amazing but so does a 90s mustang with a 4 cylinder under the hood, lacks the 5.0 v8 power of a real 200k paycheck.

['97 Tercel]

but so does a 90s mustang with a 4 cylinder under the hood,

the gross pay perfectly described.

[RustyDeuce]

I mentioned this when the strike vote happened but a strike vote is not a just a negotiation tool, as was repeated here a few times. It has real and immediate consequences to the company. WestJet was losing millions in bookings under the threat of a strike. Did the pilot group really think that WestJet would continue to operate under that threat, losing bookings indefinitely? Sooner or later the board of directors was going to move end this. It’s not out of spite, it’s to prevent indefinite further financial harm. Board members don’t act out of spite and like a “baby” to get revenge.
How long would the solidarity have lasted if 200 pilots were laid off and the rest locked out while the core flying was being done by encore and some leased wide bodies. An arbitrator was always where this was going to end up. Hopefully the gains made are worth the costs to the company in the end.

The real sad thing about all this, all of this could have been avoided with cola and a small give last contract. As for encore picking up the slack that's laughable as they cant complete their own flying as they're already overworked and canceling flights daily due to crew shortages (attrition to AC). I also think the traveling public would still just book elsewhere if we were locked out and some random WB operator tried to fill in, the end result would be a loss of bookings; zero sum gain there.
Food for thought, who put out the original press release for swoop? Clive did. He's been silent for years before that point. I thought CEOs were for that...

As for compensation, it's a sore point. Sure our T4s look amazing but so does a 90s mustang with a 4 cylinder under the hood, lacks the 5.0 v8 power of a real 200k paycheck.

Food for thought, bookings were down 20% at its worst. That led to the decision to lock out pilots. Locking out the pilots and shutting down the airline was a more palatable solution than continuing to watch bookings crater and let pilots be completely unreasonable in their demands.ALPA's demands were so stupidly expensive even they didn't realize how costly they were until their own people came in to see how much it would cost.

I'm not sure what is to celebrate at this point in time.

[RustyDeuce]

I still find it very hard to believe that CB and/or the bod would "shut down" the airline. A very successful profitable airline shut down and closing shop over this? In my opinion Westjet has played alpa good. But I am also glad to see this come to an end. Everyone can move on and keep the airline(s) running.

Only thing a union can do when faced with this kind of threat is call the bluff.

IF it's the only thing to do why didn't the union call the bluff? Maybe because it wasn't.