They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

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altiplano
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Re: They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

Post by altiplano »

True North wrote: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:18 pm
altiplano wrote: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:50 am Some people still buy it - that it's all about the pilots and our wages.

The fact is that you could pay the guys in the front nothing and it wouldn't even show as a blip on reducing CASM meaningfully.
Utter bollocks and100% wrong. Certainly what the union types would like you to believe.

You have obviously never done any kind of costing for a business.
No, you are 1000% wrong!

You should quote the rest of my post too, are you going to tell me that's wrong?
altiplano wrote: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:50 am The highest profit ULCCs in the US pay their pilots similar to US Legacy Airlines... and they are among the most profitable airlines in the world and have a highly motivated workforce. That's how it's done, densifying, ancillary charges, secondary markets, adaptability. Paying pilots shitty is just a bonus for them if you buy it.
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True North
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Re: They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

Post by True North »

altiplano wrote: Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:54 pm
True North wrote: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:18 pm
altiplano wrote: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:50 am Some people still buy it - that it's all about the pilots and our wages.

The fact is that you could pay the guys in the front nothing and it wouldn't even show as a blip on reducing CASM meaningfully.
Utter bollocks and100% wrong. Certainly what the union types would like you to believe.

You have obviously never done any kind of costing for a business.
No, you are 1000% wrong!


Are WJ pilots paid in magic fairy dust, or something other than cold hard currency? You've obviously been snorting some of that dust to proclaim that pilot wages have no bearing on the bottom line or CASM. Wages are a COST. You do know the "C" in CASM stands for COST, right? And pilot wages are a significant cost. You have swallowed the union propaganda hook, line and sinker so there is no point debating this any further.
You should quote the rest of my post too, are you going to tell me that's wrong?
altiplano wrote: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:50 am The highest profit ULCCs in the US pay their pilots similar to US Legacy Airlines... and they are among the most profitable airlines in the world and have a highly motivated workforce. That's how it's done, densifying, ancillary charges, secondary markets, adaptability. Paying pilots shitty is just a bonus for them if you buy it.
I didn't bother addressing the remainder of your post because it is entirely irrelevant. The US ULCCs and legacy carriers operate in, are you sitting down, the United States. WestJet operates in Canada in an entirely different environment with different tax and fee structures so any comparison is apples and cabbages. Totally pointless.
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altiplano
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Re: They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

Post by altiplano »

True North wrote: Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:18 pm Are WJ pilots paid in magic fairy dust, or something other than cold hard currency? You've obviously been snorting some of that dust to proclaim that pilot wages have no bearing on the bottom line or CASM. Wages are a COST. You do know the "C" in CASM stands for COST, right? And pilot wages are a significant cost. You have swallowed the union propaganda hook, line and sinker so there is no point debating this any further.
Stick the condecension... and get something right at least.

I didn't say "no bearing", I said meaningful reduction... in the scope of CASM metrics, the amount for pilot salary is extremely minimal... ULCCs reduce CASM with zero frills, high density configurations, and lower fees at secondary airports where available, that's where the MEANINGFUL REDUCTION occurs... Sure a few bucks less for a pilot is a cherry on top, but it's not what makes the model work.

The intangibles like a highly motivated front end crew saving bucks for the airline day in, day out make a more significant difference.
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True North
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Re: They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

Post by True North »

altiplano wrote: Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:17 pm
True North wrote: Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:18 pm Are WJ pilots paid in magic fairy dust, or something other than cold hard currency? You've obviously been snorting some of that dust to proclaim that pilot wages have no bearing on the bottom line or CASM. Wages are a COST. You do know the "C" in CASM stands for COST, right? And pilot wages are a significant cost. You have swallowed the union propaganda hook, line and sinker so there is no point debating this any further.
Stick the condecension... and get something right at least.

I didn't say "no bearing", I said meaningful reduction... in the scope of CASM metrics, the amount for pilot salary is extremely minimal... ULCCs reduce CASM with zero frills, high density configurations, and lower fees at secondary airports where available, that's where the MEANINGFUL REDUCTION occurs... Sure a few bucks less for a pilot is a cherry on top, but it's not what makes the model work.

The intangibles like a highly motivated front end crew saving bucks for the airline day in, day out make a more significant difference.
And you're still wrong. But keep telling yourself that.
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aerobod
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Re: They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

Post by aerobod »

Pilot compensation (including profit share) at mainline was 6.5% of CASM including fuel, 9% of CASM ex-fuel (9.89c) in 2017.

For an ex-fuel CASM of 7.0c at Swoop, if WestJet mainline wages are paid, pilot wages will be almost 12% of CASM ex-fuel after adjusting for seat capacity (189 vs 174). This will be the single largest non-fixed cost, higher than the total airport operating cost out the current announced airports.
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moe
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Re: They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

Post by moe »

Good. Deal with reality mofos.
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Re: They were going to lock everyone out and shut the doors?

Post by aerobod »

moe wrote: Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:40 pm Good. Deal with reality mofos.
Reality is if something is able to be profitable it will continue to exist, if not, ticket prices will increase and either demand will drop off and the market will shrink leading to layoffs, or losses will be incurred and the company will eventually go out of business. Can’t have a free market and unrealistic economics existing at the same time.
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