China_CAAC's Merged Threads

[DropTanks]

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[TheStig]

Not true. 30 Encore pilots got cut off at the knees on this one. The last 3 classes all got superceded by Swoop.

The 26 captain positions kept by Swoop pilots suggests that ALPA can’t protect the pilots at Westjet; Encore is definitely in trouble.

Holly crap you’re right! I didn’t realize that ALPA’s supposed to tell the arbitrator how it’s gonna be. What a complete failure! . Ugh.

BTW how’s your de-certification drive coming along? Lmao!

If this is all true, I would consider it a win, it demonstrates that the Arbitrator is honouring DOH for everyone (WJ,WJe & Swoop). As has been mentioned, a successful arbitration leaves both sides equally dissatisfied, everyone at encore should be relieved. It seems like the sentiment among the pilot group is to send the would be scabs back to the street, the Arbitrator saw that they were hired by WJ and awarded them a Date of Hire spot on the list, keep in mind the airline could have been arguing to keep them in their current positions to saw on training costs. By-pass pay should provide enough incentive to have everyone in a seniority appropriate position ASAP. This seems like a sensible solution.

I hope that ALPA isn't consuming as much energy on trying to punish 26 pilots as everyone here is, although I'm curious if anyone knows whether a Union can deny them representation as they've been hired by Westjet and will be subject to the terms and conditions of the eventual contract? I'm sure this has been discussed, I know that an employee can refuse to join a union (although they still have to pay dues), but I don't know how things work when the shoe is on the other foot.

There are clearly some big issues to be covered that will have important ramifications on everyones day to day and month to month lives, I'd take comfort in knowing that ALPA's experience and know how will ensure that loopholes and fine print and covered as it seems like management no longer deserves the benefit of good will from the pilot group.

All the best over the next week.

[Rezy]

My understanding is that they would be represented by the union but considered in”bad faith”with the union. So ALPA would be there bargaining unit, they would pay dues, they would have the same working conditions as any other pilot (in the respective role). However, they would not be able to partake in any union activities. Ie votes, surveys, etc.

[WeedPro2000]

My friends! I just got a hold of this video this morning and it clearly shows my skill under canopy from an incident on June 15, 2016, and is a metaphor for either ALPA’s ability to negotiate a CBA or the status of the WPDL when ALPA rolled into town: https://youtu.be/2IjvCJ-JJY0

I’m fine now, all back together.

Cheers Jungs!

Johnny The Wonder Jumper

[BE02 Driver]

Yes and it is fully intact WJ/Encore/Swoop. In that order actually lol. Currently sits at about 2030 names with current Swoop pilots going all the way to the bottom.

Not true. 30 Encore pilots got cut off at the knees on this one. The last 3 classes all got superceded by Swoop.

Ok let’s break this down in detail just for the sake of clarity. The WPDL is in fact intact. I did say that Swoop pilots were going to the bottom of the list. For all intents and purposes this is true. They will be within 50 numbers of the bottom of a 2000 name list...but yes not rock bottom. Why not Rock bottom? Because they were hired in the first week of April and the last 3 Encore courses were April 16, May 14 and May 28. So yes the Swoopsters are actually senior to a few pilots here that were actually hired after them. That’s how seniority works. So how exactly did those last 30 Encore pilots get “cut off at the knees”? I’m pretty sure we agree on how we feel about the Swoopsters but let’s be accurate here. Those last 30 Encorians did not get screwed by anybody.

Because most of those 30 guys had the credentials to be hired by Swoop but choose to take the front door into WJ, with knowledge of a single list. The swoop people were hired with the knowledge at the time they would never flow to WJ. They got a huge gift from ALPA, and as such their start date should be the day that decision was made, not the day they snuck in the back door.

[True North]

the Arbitrator saw that they were hired by WJ and awarded them a Date of Hire spot on the list, keep in mind the airline could have been arguing to keep them in their current positions to saw on training costs. By-pass pay should provide enough incentive to have everyone in a seniority appropriate position ASAP. This seems like a sensible solution.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting your post but my understanding is the 26 Swoop captains will be staying in their current positions, hence the bypass pay. Otherwise why would there be any bypass pay?

[mbav8r]

I have to say that I’m very disappointed that WJ ALPA gave in to this particular item, the “Blacklist” will forever be completely meaningless. Theses scabs skipped the line despite a publicized balcklist and it appears they are keeping their position let alone their jobs, what a crock.
That being said, the bypass pay issue in my mind should be in effect on until such time these scabs can actually hold their position, as long as there is someone senior to them, there should be at least 26 on bypass. Any bypass clause I’ve ever seen, everyone between the seniority of the pilot holding a position out of seniority and one who bids it, get bypass pay.
No idea why it was set up the way it was but these 26 scabs are not cheap labour anymore and for the life of me I can’t see why WJ is willing to go this route. Everyday this goes on, the current pilots will become more and more bitter, which will cost WJ far more than they ever imagined.

[JTrain]

The entire Encore list was stapled to the bottom of the WS list in June 2014. Plus the original 50 Encore pilots were added to the WJ seniority list in the late summer of 2013. That is why you'll see many DOHs that seem out of order on the WJPDL. Best case scenario for the Swoopsters is that they go to the bottom of the WJPDL from the date of the arbitrator agreement, below the 30 Encore folks. The differentiating factor is when the Encore folks were hired, they were on the WJPDL, whereas the Swoopsters were not.

[WeedPro2000]

I guess I should have been more clear. The WPDL will exist at WJ mainline for another couple of months, after which it will be superseded by a true DOH seniority list in the first ALPA CBA, and in which every pilot will be ordered by their date of hire at WJ mainline. That’s how it works at ALPA.

Cheers

[TFTMB heavy]

I guess I should have been more clear. The WPDL will exist at WJ mainline for another couple of months, after which it will be superseded by a true DOH seniority list in the first ALPA CBA, and in which every pilot will be ordered by their date of hire at WJ mainline. That’s how it works at ALPA.

Cheers

Not true, ALPA does not dictate what's in the WS CBA, they are there to support and advise. WS MEC could do their seniority by shoe size and ALPA could not stop them.

[DropTanks]

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[JohnnyHotRocks]

Told you the blacklist would never work

[KAG]

My friends! I just got a hold of this video this morning and it clearly shows my skill under canopy from an incident on June 15, 2016, and is a metaphor for either ALPA’s ability to negotiate a CBA or the status of the WPDL when ALPA rolled into town: https://youtu.be/2IjvCJ-JJY0

I’m fine now, all back together.

Cheers Jungs!

Johnny The Wonder Jumper

Swallow, was that honestly you? If so jesus that must have hurt. Another possible metaphor for that video, if the WPDL remains intact post arbitration, and we get a solid contract, that could represent your anti union drive.

[Transonic]

Told you the blacklist would never work

It probably did work. We always knew that Swoop would find pilots. The question was always the quality and quantity, both of which would have been hindered by the symbolic ban. No young whippersnappers at Swoop.

[tailgunner]

Sometimes you really wonder why a certain person or employee has a work history that shows frequent moves and gaining no traction career wise. Is it their personality or circumstance?
Then, after reading numerous posts by said individual, it becomes painfully obvious. They are their own worst enemy.
Tbalx, with every post you make you are cementing your already poor reputation. It is readily apparent why you have bounced from operator to operator. I have many contacts at at least 3 of your previous jobs. When I raise your name, you can well imagine the response.
Enjoy your time at Swoop, or wherever you end up,after burning this bridge.

[Transonic]

I guess I should have been more clear. The WPDL will exist at WJ mainline for another couple of months, after which it will be superseded by a true DOH seniority list in the first ALPA CBA, and in which every pilot will be ordered by their date of hire at WJ mainline. That’s how it works at ALPA.

Cheers

Your right. Post CBA, WestJet will have a seperate DOH list. Encore the same after their CBA. HOWEVER there will be a LOU to tie the two in the same way the WPDL does via a master list. This was stated today by the MEC during one of the pilot conference calls.

The only caveat to the LOU....the company has to agree.

['97 Tercel]

I guess I should have been more clear. The WPDL will exist at WJ mainline for another couple of months, after which it will be superseded by a true DOH seniority list in the first ALPA CBA, and in which every pilot will be ordered by their date of hire at WJ mainline. That’s how it works at ALPA.

Cheers

Not true, ALPA does not dictate what's in the WS CBA, they are there to support and advise. WS MEC could do their seniority by shoe size and ALPA could not stop them.

Woah woah, quit letting facts get in the way of a good story!

[Transonic]

Not true. 30 Encore pilots got cut off at the knees on this one. The last 3 classes all got superceded by Swoop.

Ok let’s break this down in detail just for the sake of clarity. The WPDL is in fact intact. I did say that Swoop pilots were going to the bottom of the list. For all intents and purposes this is true. They will be within 50 numbers of the bottom of a 2000 name list...but yes not rock bottom. Why not Rock bottom? Because they were hired in the first week of April and the last 3 Encore courses were April 16, May 14 and May 28. So yes the Swoopsters are actually senior to a few pilots here that were actually hired after them. That’s how seniority works. So how exactly did those last 30 Encore pilots get “cut off at the knees”? I’m pretty sure we agree on how we feel about the Swoopsters but let’s be accurate here. Those last 30 Encorians did not get screwed by anybody.

Because most of those 30 guys had the credentials to be hired by Swoop but choose to take the front door into WJ, with knowledge of a single list. The swoop people were hired with the knowledge at the time they would never flow to WJ. They got a huge gift from ALPA, and as such their start date should be the day that decision was made, not the day they snuck in the back door.

WestJet won't tolerate bypass pay for long. Any uplift in wages post CBA only magnifies the cost to keep the original 26. With both ALPA and WestJet in agreement, those 26 will be displaced via a bid post CBA. I doubt they'll be around for long as FOs and certainly will not be around when those Encore pilots are upgraded at mainline.

[BE02 Driver]

Ok let’s break this down in detail just for the sake of clarity. The WPDL is in fact intact. I did say that Swoop pilots were going to the bottom of the list. For all intents and purposes this is true. They will be within 50 numbers of the bottom of a 2000 name list...but yes not rock bottom. Why not Rock bottom? Because they were hired in the first week of April and the last 3 Encore courses were April 16, May 14 and May 28. So yes the Swoopsters are actually senior to a few pilots here that were actually hired after them. That’s how seniority works. So how exactly did those last 30 Encore pilots get “cut off at the knees”? I’m pretty sure we agree on how we feel about the Swoopsters but let’s be accurate here. Those last 30 Encorians did not get screwed by anybody.

Because most of those 30 guys had the credentials to be hired by Swoop but choose to take the front door into WJ, with knowledge of a single list. The swoop people were hired with the knowledge at the time they would never flow to WJ. They got a huge gift from ALPA, and as such their start date should be the day that decision was made, not the day they snuck in the back door.

Apparently you’re confused about who exactly made the call to put the Swoopsters where on the list. I’ll give you a hint, it wasn’t ALPA and it rhymes with arbitrator. Your frustration is misguided and misplaced.

I'm not confused in the slightest. I didn't say ALPA made that call. I'm implying that the Swoopstes got a good deal as the result of ALPA's fight. A very good deal, a deal that happens to undercut some of the people ALPA represent. I don't blame that on ALPA, that's just the way it happened, and hopefully the arbitrator changes it...

I guess my point is Swoopstes were hired with the expectation of not having access to flow, Encorians were hired with expectation of flow.
So the Swoopstes date of hire should be the date they were granted access to the flow.

If you take something that is not yours, and you are caught, then that item is taken from you and given back to the rightful owner.

Bypass pay accomplishes this for the stolen Captain positions,
Now what about the stolen senoirity?

Swoopstes are still gaining the one list (a big benefit) if they are put to the very back, where as 30 Encore pilots lose senoirity they taught they had if they are not.

[WeedPro2000]

I have attached the latest ALPA update (11 June 2018), in which many questions were answered. No question was posed or answered regarding the ordering of the WJ seniority list, nor was any question asked regarding the the status of the combined WJ/WJE WPDL in the upcoming WJ CBA. You can read into that how you like.

Q5: With regards to Swoop flying, what have we achieved so far?

A5: Swoop, as envisioned by WestJet, was a significant long-term threat to WestJet pilots' careers. The Kaplan interim award, along with the arbitration framework we agreed to when faced with the choice of a full strike or lockout, has allowed us to capture the Swoop flying now and for as long as Swoop exists. By having a single seniority list, a single bargaining unit, and single collective agreement, our jobs are no longer threatened by the existence of this alter ego airline. Now, through the mediation-arbitration process, we have the right and responsibility to make the jobs at both WestJet and Swoop as good as they can be. And that is what we intend to do.

analysis: WestJet and Swoop pilots now have a single seniority list. Encore pilots will have their own seniority list. By WestJet and Swoop pilots having a single bargaining unit and a single collective bargaining agreement, their jobs (WestJet and Swoop pilots) will no longer be threatened by the Encore airline. The WJ MEC clearly has carried out its mandate and represented only WJ pilots (and now Swoop pilots) throughout the bargaining process. They did not negotiate anything with regards to Encore pilots, except possibly to restrict their activites via a scope provision.


Q15: Do the current Swoop pilots come before or after Encore pilots in seniority?

A15: In the arbitrator's interim award, Swoop pilots were given seniority based on their date of hire, which places them behind all but roughly 30 Encore pilots who have been hired since the first Swoop pilots were hired.

analysis: It is unlikely the arbitrator went against the already (for the most part, according to ALPA) negotiated seniority provision in the upcoming CBA. Therefore, we can assume with some certainty that the WJ seniority list will be DOH, like every other non-merger seniority list at ALPA represented companies. Additionally, ALPA Executive Board policy, which the MEC is bound to follow by the ALPA Constitution, mandates a DOH seniority list (absent mergers).

Additionally, Question 15 above, as phrased, is somewhat vague. It refers to "Encore" pilots. It does not refer to "former Encore pilots who have now flowed over to WJ". If the question posed had been answered, the respnse might be this: Swoop pilots are ahead of all Encore pilots on the current yet soon to be abandoned WPDL. Each Swoop pilot will have a higher position on the WJ seniority list than every Encore pilot who has flowed or will flow after the date the Swoop pilot was hired at Swoop.

It is clear more than ever that the WJ seniority list will ordered by DOH at WJ, without regard for previous employment at Encore. There was enough information out there to understand why, and yours truly certainly went above and beyond to illustrate this. The Organizing Committee told everyone that whether the WPDL was kept or not in the first CBA was entirely up to WJ pilots. As I'm not a member of ALPA, I can't say what were the questions posed by the surveys issued by ALPA. Regardless, no survey results were released by ALPA, giving them convenient cover from difficult questions that will be posed in the coming months.

I do hope many are starting to question the value of ALPA on property. One can hope that the ALPA experiment will end in 24 months from the date of the first CBA.

Okay Jungs, I'm off to spend the day being awesome! Whatever you guys and gals do, don't be boring!

Sir Jumpsalot