Minisiter of Transport M Garneau braggs about Swoop

[av8r374]

Exactly, and since there aren't any rules in terms of giving night/morning shifts I've definitely had a week of early mornings ending at 4-5pm and a flight the immediate next day ending at 3am.

The only way to make it work after a long day is to force myself to stay up until 3am that night after I had been working since 5am and hope I wake up late enough in the morning to be rested for my late flight.

It's inhumane, no shift workers are allowed to get switched like that, but we are, and I'm not even a medevac driver.

Your claim that "no shift workers are allowed to get switched like that" is terribly naive and full of self-pity. You don't even have to look very far as it is common place in the aviation industry. Talk to dispatchers, maintenance personnel, crew schedulers etc. They all do it.

It is perfectly normal and very common to work until anywhere between 4-7pm one day and then report for a 12-hour shift 24 hours later. In fact what's even worse is that the opposite is allowed (working a string of 12 hour night shifts and reporting for an early morning shift 24 hours later).

I am not in any way implying this is okay or humane. I 100% agree with you on that part, especially considering the safety critical nature of the industry.

If you have trouble sleeping in I recommend two things.
1. Try some melatonin when you need to do that (1mg is plenty).
2. Stay off avcanada on those nights when you're forcing yourself to stay up until 3am. It can't possibly do any wonders for a good sleep

[FL007]

Exactly, and since there aren't any rules in terms of giving night/morning shifts I've definitely had a week of early mornings ending at 4-5pm and a flight the immediate next day ending at 3am.

The only way to make it work after a long day is to force myself to stay up until 3am that night after I had been working since 5am and hope I wake up late enough in the morning to be rested for my late flight.

It's inhumane, no shift workers are allowed to get switched like that, but we are, and I'm not even a medevac driver.

Your claim that "no shift workers are allowed to get switched like that" is terribly naive and full of self-pity. You don't even have to look very far as it is common place in the aviation industry. Talk to dispatchers, maintenance personnel, crew schedulers etc. They all do it.

It is perfectly normal and very common to work until anywhere between 4-7pm one day and then report for a 12-hour shift 24 hours later. In fact what's even worse is that the opposite is allowed (working a string of 12 hour night shifts and reporting for an early morning shift 24 hours later).

I am not in any way implying this is okay or humane. I 100% agree with you on that part, especially considering the safety critical nature of the industry.

If you have trouble sleeping in I recommend two things.
1. Try some melatonin when you need to do that (1mg is plenty).
2. Stay off avcanada on those nights when you're forcing yourself to stay up until 3am. It can't possibly do any wonders for a good sleep

It isn't self pity or naive, labor laws exist for everyone besides industry that is federally regulated, ie: pilots. Nurses doing nights/days usually have a period to re adjust.
You can't pool Dispatch, crew schedulers, and maintenance with pilots in this, everyone gets a lunch break, mandated breaks, can use an actual washroom, etc, except pilots.
Cause of additional fatigue? Vibration, loud noise, heat/cold.

I have no problem sleeping, but as science shows, humans are based on the rhythm, these current rules are abysmal and shouldn't exist as they are.

10+ leg 14hr days in a 705 machine is for the dogs.

[goldeneagle]

Nurses doing nights/days usually have a period to re adjust.

Checked out shift schedules at a hospital lately ? Nurses typically do 12 hour shifts, 2 days, followed immediately by 2 nights. Yes, they finish a day shift at 1930 and are expected to show up for a 12 hour night exactly 24 hours later.

[FL007]

Nurses doing nights/days usually have a period to re adjust.

Checked out shift schedules at a hospital lately ? Nurses typically do 12 hour shifts, 2 days, followed immediately by 2 nights. Yes, they finish a day shift at 1930 and are expected to show up for a 12 hour night exactly 24 hours later.

24hrs is a lot better than working 4am until 10am, then 9pm the same night until 11am.. I'd love 24hrs to readjust, just not 9hrs like I can flick a switch and "rest" on command.

There's no defending these duty rules. Nurses also make more than double the first year than a 704 FO.

We're comparing apples to oranges, I was just bringing up the fact that all shift workers besides pilots are required to abide by labor laws, which in some regards are more strict than pilot regs.

We all know of people getting shafted at work, but these duty regs are an absolute problem, especially on a challenging weather day. I even know friends who have had an extended duty day who had to deadhead 3-4hrs afterwards (21hr shift), would the labor board accept that? Absolutely not.

[av8r374]

24hrs is a lot better than working 4am until 10am, then 9pm the same night until 11am.. I'd love 24hrs to readjust, just not 9hrs like I can flick a switch and "rest" on command.

There's no defending these duty rules. Nurses also make more than double the first year than a 704 FO.

We're comparing apples to oranges, I was just bringing up the fact that all shift workers besides pilots are required to abide by labor laws, which in some regards are more strict than pilot regs.

We all know of people getting shafted at work, but these duty regs are an absolute problem, especially on a challenging weather day. I even know friends who have had an extended duty day who had to deadhead 3-4hrs afterwards (21hr shift), would the labor board accept that? Absolutely not.

I agree duty regs are long overdue for an overhaul. What would be a good system to have?

Referencing your post from earlier about other aviation shift workers. 705 Dispatchers do not get scheduled meal breaks. Meals are usually eaten at their desk. Short breaks (<10 mins) taken to go get/warm up food, go to the bathroom etc. During those breaks, control must be transferred to another dispatcher who has a lot on their plate as is. They can plan/watch upwards of 50 flights per day, can be glued to a computer screen for 12 hours straight dealing with multiple flights that have weather etc. It is a high stress job that requires multi-tasking and concentration for hours on end. They can work 4-7 12 hour days straight (talk about challenging weather day). It's not quite a walk in the park either.

[FL007]

24hrs is a lot better than working 4am until 10am, then 9pm the same night until 11am.. I'd love 24hrs to readjust, just not 9hrs like I can flick a switch and "rest" on command.

There's no defending these duty rules. Nurses also make more than double the first year than a 704 FO.

We're comparing apples to oranges, I was just bringing up the fact that all shift workers besides pilots are required to abide by labor laws, which in some regards are more strict than pilot regs.

We all know of people getting shafted at work, but these duty regs are an absolute problem, especially on a challenging weather day. I even know friends who have had an extended duty day who had to deadhead 3-4hrs afterwards (21hr shift), would the labor board accept that? Absolutely not.

I agree duty regs are long overdue for an overhaul. What would be a good system to have?

Referencing your post from earlier about other aviation shift workers. 705 Dispatchers do not get scheduled meal breaks. Meals are usually eaten at their desk. Short breaks (<10 mins) taken to go get/warm up food, go to the bathroom etc. During those breaks, control must be transferred to another dispatcher who has a lot on their plate as is. They can plan/watch upwards of 50 flights per day, can be glued to a computer screen for 12 hours straight dealing with multiple flights that have weather etc. It is a high stress job that requires multi-tasking and concentration for hours on end. They can work 4-7 12 hour days straight (talk about challenging weather day). It's not quite a walk in the park either.

I'm sorry but that is against the labor code and if that's the case then that is to be taken up with the labor board. If I can't fly due to duty regs I don't, I fly within my prescribed rules which are outdated, and I highly recommend dispatchers work by their prescribed rules, which are dictated by labor law.

For whatever reason if labor laws are being broken in terms of dispatching its up to the Dispatcher to make sure their rights are upheld.

Breaks are mandated, lunch breaks are mandated, and workplace safety is mandated. There's no excuse.

[MattK]

Comparing other jobs is not relevant, short of them having potentially fatal results due to poor performance. Piloting is different than sitting at a desk at 3am. That should be obvious. As is the environmental and physiological influences of altitude, light, temperature, constant sitting etc etc.

It is also difficult to compare to shift workers, even in general, since they most often have a standard, set schedule (ie. 4 on, 4 off etc). A pilots sked is permitted to change day to day and, throw in reserve, and you have dangerous situation. The example of starting reserve at 8am (for 12 hours), getting called at 7pm for a 14 hour duty is the perfect example. There is absolutely NO WAY that anyone can prepare for that and safely operate. Yet in Canada it is legal.

One potential solution would be to have duty limits but account for any flying completed between midnight at 6am as counting for 1.5 or 2 times the legal hour limit. So along with rest requirements if you fly all night those 6 hours will count as 12 towards monthly and yearly limits. This allows the human body to recover since the total monthly hours will decrease.

[complexintentions]

I'm all for safety and defending better regs for pilots. But pulling out some outlier example of a situation that depends on a mechanical problem to put you into an extra-long day isn't a valid argument. Complaining that you're tired because you "woke up at 9am, like a normal human" and didn't plan properly for the 2pm standby start? Come on. You want to be a pilot, you do have to take SOME of the schedule challenges that come with being one.

Have to agree wth AuxBatOn on this one. Take care of yourself, organize your schedule, protect your "sleep hygiene". Yes, there will be times when in spite of your best efforts, you will just be...tired. Guess what, so are workers in other fields. And yes, it's true that mistakes made by pilots can have consequences far more serious than most other professions. At the same time, pilots are given more tools in the form of a working partner and a whole slew of automation as well to assist them, advantages not on offer to most other professions either. Family obligations are challenges, but they are not valid excuses.

If you're genuinely tired and unfit to fly, of course report sick. If you're tired al the time, it may be time to consider another occupation. Aviation isn't, has never been, and never will be a nine to five job. This isn't news, is it?

And you guys are getting more long-haul airplanes? If you think domestic schedules are difficult. well...good luck with that.

[Rezy]

As much as everyone believes they can make it work by iron manning through it, or manage it better, or whatever. The simple fact is we are all human and all are subject to the same human factors. This is scientifically proven, which is why every other country has more restrictive fatigue rules. So if you want to armchair quarterback all the science and all the facts - go right ahead, just know that science and facts are against you. Our fatigue rules are in the dark ages and the rest of the world gets it. It’s time to open our eyes and look beyond our own front lawn, when it comes to fatigue.

[complexintentions]

As much as everyone believes they can make it work by iron manning through it, or manage it better, or whatever. The simple fact is we are all human and all are subject to the same human factors. This is scientifically proven, which is why every other country has more restrictive fatigue rules. So if you want to armchair quarterback all the science and all the facts - go right ahead, just know that science and facts are against you. Our fatigue rules are in the dark ages and the rest of the world gets it. It’s time to open our eyes and look beyond our own front lawn, when it comes to fatigue.

Unfortunately, until you can actually quantify with data that Canada's rules are less safe than others' - and hyperbole such as "our fatigue rules are in the dark ages" doesn't qualify - nothing will change.

If you really believe the "rest of the world gets it", it's obvious you've never flown in the rest of the world.

[Rezy]

https://www.icao.int/safety/fatiguemana ... )%20EN.pdf

[av8r374]

Comparing other jobs is not relevant, short of them having potentially fatal results due to poor performance. Piloting is different than sitting at a desk at 3am. That should be obvious. As is the environmental and physiological influences of altitude, light, temperature, constant sitting etc etc.

It is also difficult to compare to shift workers, even in general, since they most often have a standard, set schedule (ie. 4 on, 4 off etc). A pilots sked is permitted to change day to day and, throw in reserve, and you have dangerous situation. The example of starting reserve at 8am (for 12 hours), getting called at 7pm for a 14 hour duty is the perfect example. There is absolutely NO WAY that anyone can prepare for that and safely operate. Yet in Canada it is legal.

One potential solution would be to have duty limits but account for any flying completed between midnight at 6am as counting for 1.5 or 2 times the legal hour limit. So along with rest requirements if you fly all night those 6 hours will count as 12 towards monthly and yearly limits. This allows the human body to recover since the total monthly hours will decrease.

I don't claim that as a real comparison. Just disputing FL007's misinformed claims about shiftwork etc.

Reserve regulations are ridiculous. Clock for duty day when on reserve should commence from the start of a reserve period plain and simple. There is no way anybody can argue some of these possible reserve scenarios are anywhere near safe.

Limiting hours flown within say a 24 hour period would probably also benefit despite being a bit of a scheduling challenge.

A huge concern is when you couple these outrageous duty regulations with declining experience levels in the flight deck. Not to mention that lower experience also means lower experience with fatigue risk management. This is a troubling reality that the minister needs to open his eyes to.

I highly encourage anyone on here to give the document Rezy shared a good read over as it has incredibly valuable (yet simplified) information on sleep science, and FRM as a whole.

[mbav8r]

Not sure how this stacks up to the new rules but at Jazz our reserve is restricted to a 20 hour total. If reserve starts at 0600 and we get called at 0600, we can do the normal 14 hour duty, if called at 1600, we can only work until 0200. Not perfect but not getting called at the end for another 14 hours is better and it is something you can plan for.

[alkaseltzer]

I think Team Red should see this as a warning shot in the event of hopes of a future bailout.

I don't work for Air Canada, but when was the last time they were bailed out...when they were government run?

From what I understand, the balance sheet of AC is one of the strongest in Canada.

I don't think they have any intention of going under anytime soon.

Once you look at their aggressive accounting measures,or perhaps take a course on it, you will see for yourself what is going on behind the smoke and mirrors.

[FL007]

I think Team Red should see this as a warning shot in the event of hopes of a future bailout.

I don't work for Air Canada, but when was the last time they were bailed out...when they were government run?

From what I understand, the balance sheet of AC is one of the strongest in Canada.

I don't think they have any intention of going under anytime soon.

Once you look at their aggressive accounting measures,or perhaps take a course on it, you will see for yourself what is going on behind the smoke and mirrors.

If they are potentially going under why are they handing out so much in profit sharing each year?

Smoke and mirrors so the pilot group doesn't spill the beans?

[The Tenth Man]

Don’t engage Weedpro, waste of your time. Absolute embarrassment!

Probably the best advice on here. I've tried to have meaningful respectful dialog with him but he just deflects and refuses to answer the question when cornered. Embarrassment is right!

Francis, interesting that you claim I won't answer questions, yet you won't address the issues I raised regarding the demise of the WPDL. Specifics please.

[mbav8r]

Don’t engage Weedpro, waste of your time. Absolute embarrassment!

Probably the best advice on here. I've tried to have meaningful respectful dialog with him but he just deflects and refuses to answer the question when cornered. Embarrassment is right!

Francis, interesting that you claim I won't answer questions, yet you won't address the issues I raised regarding the demise of the WPDL. Specifics please.

Had to quote this, this guy has so many personalities he can’t keep them straight