Minisiter of Transport M Garneau braggs about Swoop

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Re: Minisiter of Transport M Garneau braggs about Swoop

Post by snowcone » Sat Jun 16, 2018 12:11 pm

alkaseltzer wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:56 am
I think Team Red should see this as a warning shot in the event of hopes of a future bailout.
I don't work for Air Canada, but when was the last time they were bailed out...when they were government run?

From what I understand, the balance sheet of AC is one of the strongest in Canada.

I don't think they have any intention of going under anytime soon.
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Re: Minisiter of Transport M Garneau braggs about Swoop

Post by AuxBatOn » Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:39 pm

Gilles Hudicourt wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:55 am


You are rostered to be on reserve, from 2 PM to 2 AM. You woke up at 9 AM that day, after 9 hours of excellent sleep.
And at no point you would consider modifying your sleep schedule to wake up closer to noon to account for the fact that you may be recalled? Or consider napping a couple of times during the day to stay well rested?

I have done weeklong shifts where I alternated between sleeping at work on a really short recall time for 24 hrs and being at home on a slightly longer recall time for the following 24 hours. Guess what: I changed my sleep schedule (yes, even with kids) to account for the fact that I may be flying at any point those weeks.
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Re: Minisiter of Transport M Garneau braggs about Swoop

Post by digits_ » Sat Jun 16, 2018 2:14 pm

AuxBatOn wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:39 pm
Or consider napping a couple of times during the day to stay well rested?
Peope aren't cellphones you can leave in a charger all day and expect them to be fully charged at any time.

If napping works for you: great. For some people, it just doesn't.
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Re: Minisiter of Transport M Garneau braggs about Swoop

Post by AuxBatOn » Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:36 pm

digits_ wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 2:14 pm
AuxBatOn wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:39 pm
Or consider napping a couple of times during the day to stay well rested?
Peope aren't cellphones you can leave in a charger all day and expect them to be fully charged at any time.

If napping works for you: great. For some people, it just doesn't.
There are strategies that you can use. While they may not all be effective for you, one or two surely are. If you are trying to treat your day on reserve as a day off, perhaps you just have to suck it up or reconsider your career choices. In that window, you are accountable to your employer to be fit for duties. You better make sure you are...
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Re: Minisiter of Transport M Garneau braggs about Swoop

Post by digits_ » Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:19 pm

AuxBatOn wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:36 pm
digits_ wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 2:14 pm
AuxBatOn wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:39 pm
Or consider napping a couple of times during the day to stay well rested?
Peope aren't cellphones you can leave in a charger all day and expect them to be fully charged at any time.

If napping works for you: great. For some people, it just doesn't.
There are strategies that you can use. While they may not all be effective for you, one or two surely are. If you are trying to treat your day on reserve as a day off, perhaps you just have to suck it up or reconsider your career choices. In that window, you are accountable to your employer to be fit for duties. You better make sure you are...
The problem is not to be fit for duty during that window, the problem is to be fit for duty during that window + 14 hours. Working for 14 hours straight is already quite tiring, even if you wake up just before at 8 AM. Now you add an unkown start time and end time in the mix, and you will be (too?) tired. Medevac flashbacks come to mind. But even in Gilles example, where you could say "just sleep in". What if the reserve day is follwing a week of early morning shifts? Your body has the capability to absorb a change from 24 hour rythm to a 23 hour or 26 hour rythm. So switching from waking up at 4 AM to waking up at noon and still waiting till 6 pm to start working for 14 hours, is just crazy. Maybe a few people are capable of doing that while they are not sleep drunk, but I have a feeling a lot won't be.

If you are, go to any medevac operator and you'll make a lot of money. They'll love you!
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Re: Minisiter of Transport M Garneau braggs about Swoop

Post by FL007 » Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:09 am

digits_ wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:19 pm
AuxBatOn wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:36 pm
digits_ wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 2:14 pm


Peope aren't cellphones you can leave in a charger all day and expect them to be fully charged at any time.

If napping works for you: great. For some people, it just doesn't.
There are strategies that you can use. While they may not all be effective for you, one or two surely are. If you are trying to treat your day on reserve as a day off, perhaps you just have to suck it up or reconsider your career choices. In that window, you are accountable to your employer to be fit for duties. You better make sure you are...
The problem is not to be fit for duty during that window, the problem is to be fit for duty during that window + 14 hours. Working for 14 hours straight is already quite tiring, even if you wake up just before at 8 AM. Now you add an unkown start time and end time in the mix, and you will be (too?) tired. Medevac flashbacks come to mind. But even in Gilles example, where you could say "just sleep in". What if the reserve day is follwing a week of early morning shifts? Your body has the capability to absorb a change from 24 hour rythm to a 23 hour or 26 hour rythm. So switching from waking up at 4 AM to waking up at noon and still waiting till 6 pm to start working for 14 hours, is just crazy. Maybe a few people are capable of doing that while they are not sleep drunk, but I have a feeling a lot won't be.

If you are, go to any medevac operator and you'll make a lot of money. They'll love you!
Exactly, and since there aren't any rules in terms of giving night/morning shifts I've definitely had a week of early mornings ending at 4-5pm and a flight the immediate next day ending at 3am.

The only way to make it work after a long day is to force myself to stay up until 3am that night after I had been working since 5am and hope I wake up late enough in the morning to be rested for my late flight.

It's inhumane, no shift workers are allowed to get switched like that, but we are, and I'm not even a medevac driver.
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Re: Minisiter of Transport M Garneau braggs about Swoop

Post by groundpilot » Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:40 pm

AuxBatOn wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:36 pm
digits_ wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 2:14 pm
AuxBatOn wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:39 pm
Or consider napping a couple of times during the day to stay well rested?
Peope aren't cellphones you can leave in a charger all day and expect them to be fully charged at any time.

If napping works for you: great. For some people, it just doesn't.
There are strategies that you can use. While they may not all be effective for you, one or two surely are. If you are trying to treat your day on reserve as a day off, perhaps you just have to suck it up or reconsider your career choices. In that window, you are accountable to your employer to be fit for duties. You better make sure you are...
:roll:

Some people have families, lives, you know...

You may not just be able to just take a nap. I am pretty sure no junior pilot in the real world treats a reserve day as a day off. Probably the polar opposite, a day of wondering where they are going to end up and in what kind of weather...
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Re: Minisiter of Transport M Garneau braggs about Swoop

Post by AuxBatOn » Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:23 am

groundpilot wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:40 pm

:roll:

Some people have families, lives, you know...

You may not just be able to just take a nap. I am pretty sure no junior pilot in the real world treats a reserve day as a day off. Probably the polar opposite, a day of wondering where they are going to end up and in what kind of weather...
If that's how you really feel, perhaps you should reconsider your career choice.
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Re: Minisiter of Transport M Garneau braggs about Swoop

Post by flyzam » Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:56 am

AuxBatOn wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:23 am
groundpilot wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:40 pm

:roll:

Some people have families, lives, you know...

You may not just be able to just take a nap. I am pretty sure no junior pilot in the real world treats a reserve day as a day off. Probably the polar opposite, a day of wondering where they are going to end up and in what kind of weather...
If that's how you really feel, perhaps you should reconsider your career choice.
That classic diversionary "if you don't like it you can lump it' instead of the more educated "let's fix it"
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Re: Minisiter of Transport M Garneau braggs about Swoop

Post by JohnnyHotRocks » Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:53 am

Maybe airlines should just stop flying at night
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Re: Minisiter of Transport M Garneau braggs about Swoop

Post by ant_321 » Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:06 am

JohnnyHotRocks wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:53 am
Maybe airlines should just stop flying at night
That's something I can get behind. No flights between 2300 and 0900. :lol:
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Re: Minisiter of Transport M Garneau braggs about Swoop

Post by Kejidog » Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:39 pm

One thing I guarantee you is that you’ll never see any of those liberal dicks or any other politician for that matter, on a low cost airline. They suck up the good seats on the big boys at our kids and grand kids expense. What a country!
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Re: Minisiter of Transport M Garneau braggs about Swoop

Post by AuxBatOn » Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:49 pm

flyzam wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:56 am

That classic diversionary "if you don't like it you can lump it' instead of the more educated "let's fix it"
All jobs require some form of loyalty towards the employer for the relationship to work. When you are “On Reserve”, you are responsible and in some cases, accountable to the company to be fit for duty. Yes, it may mean using your reserve day to be rested for your liability period and forego family activities. I generally consider that “work” where I can tend to my personnal activities rather than “personnal time” during which I may have to go to “work”.

I don’t think a 12-hour liability period is unreasonable, if you take that time to ensure you are well rested.
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Re: Minisiter of Transport M Garneau braggs about Swoop

Post by digits_ » Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:14 pm

AuxBatOn wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:49 pm
If you take that time to ensure you are well rested.
So what are the other techniques to accomplish this? You mentioned napping, which doesn't work for some people. What else is there?

Scenario: you wake up at 7 AM due to your biorythm, you slumber in bed and you finally get up at 9. You are on reserve 1400-2200. At 2100 you get a call and your day starts for a 12 hour trip. How would you deal with it? I'm honestly interested to learn what other techniques there are.
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Re: Minisiter of Transport M Garneau braggs about Swoop

Post by PostmasterGeneral » Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:16 am

digits_ wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:14 pm
AuxBatOn wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:49 pm
If you take that time to ensure you are well rested.
So what are the other techniques to accomplish this? You mentioned napping, which doesn't work for some people. What else is there?

Scenario: you wake up at 7 AM due to your biorythm, you slumber in bed and you finally get up at 9. You are on reserve 1400-2200. At 2100 you get a call and your day starts for a 12 hour trip. How would you deal with it? I'm honestly interested to learn what other techniques there are.
There aren’t. He’s just trying to ruffle feathers.

Take a nap in cruise I guess. I find even 20 minutes helps me immensely. Of course if your company has SOP provisions for that sort of thing.
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Re: Minisiter of Transport M Garneau braggs about Swoop

Post by av8r374 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:42 am

FL007 wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:09 am

Exactly, and since there aren't any rules in terms of giving night/morning shifts I've definitely had a week of early mornings ending at 4-5pm and a flight the immediate next day ending at 3am.

The only way to make it work after a long day is to force myself to stay up until 3am that night after I had been working since 5am and hope I wake up late enough in the morning to be rested for my late flight.

It's inhumane, no shift workers are allowed to get switched like that, but we are, and I'm not even a medevac driver.
Your claim that "no shift workers are allowed to get switched like that" is terribly naive and full of self-pity. You don't even have to look very far as it is common place in the aviation industry. Talk to dispatchers, maintenance personnel, crew schedulers etc. They all do it.

It is perfectly normal and very common to work until anywhere between 4-7pm one day and then report for a 12-hour shift 24 hours later. In fact what's even worse is that the opposite is allowed (working a string of 12 hour night shifts and reporting for an early morning shift 24 hours later).

I am not in any way implying this is okay or humane. I 100% agree with you on that part, especially considering the safety critical nature of the industry.

If you have trouble sleeping in I recommend two things.
1. Try some melatonin when you need to do that (1mg is plenty).
2. Stay off avcanada on those nights when you're forcing yourself to stay up until 3am. It can't possibly do any wonders for a good sleep :lol:
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Re: Minisiter of Transport M Garneau braggs about Swoop

Post by FL007 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:53 pm

av8r374 wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:42 am
FL007 wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:09 am

Exactly, and since there aren't any rules in terms of giving night/morning shifts I've definitely had a week of early mornings ending at 4-5pm and a flight the immediate next day ending at 3am.

The only way to make it work after a long day is to force myself to stay up until 3am that night after I had been working since 5am and hope I wake up late enough in the morning to be rested for my late flight.

It's inhumane, no shift workers are allowed to get switched like that, but we are, and I'm not even a medevac driver.
Your claim that "no shift workers are allowed to get switched like that" is terribly naive and full of self-pity. You don't even have to look very far as it is common place in the aviation industry. Talk to dispatchers, maintenance personnel, crew schedulers etc. They all do it.

It is perfectly normal and very common to work until anywhere between 4-7pm one day and then report for a 12-hour shift 24 hours later. In fact what's even worse is that the opposite is allowed (working a string of 12 hour night shifts and reporting for an early morning shift 24 hours later).

I am not in any way implying this is okay or humane. I 100% agree with you on that part, especially considering the safety critical nature of the industry.

If you have trouble sleeping in I recommend two things.
1. Try some melatonin when you need to do that (1mg is plenty).
2. Stay off avcanada on those nights when you're forcing yourself to stay up until 3am. It can't possibly do any wonders for a good sleep :lol:
It isn't self pity or naive, labor laws exist for everyone besides industry that is federally regulated, ie: pilots. Nurses doing nights/days usually have a period to re adjust.
You can't pool Dispatch, crew schedulers, and maintenance with pilots in this, everyone gets a lunch break, mandated breaks, can use an actual washroom, etc, except pilots.
Cause of additional fatigue? Vibration, loud noise, heat/cold.

I have no problem sleeping, but as science shows, humans are based on the rhythm, these current rules are abysmal and shouldn't exist as they are.

10+ leg 14hr days in a 705 machine is for the dogs.
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Re: Minisiter of Transport M Garneau braggs about Swoop

Post by goldeneagle » Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:50 pm

FL007 wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:53 pm
Nurses doing nights/days usually have a period to re adjust.
Checked out shift schedules at a hospital lately ? Nurses typically do 12 hour shifts, 2 days, followed immediately by 2 nights. Yes, they finish a day shift at 1930 and are expected to show up for a 12 hour night exactly 24 hours later.
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Re: Minisiter of Transport M Garneau braggs about Swoop

Post by FL007 » Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:30 am

goldeneagle wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:50 pm
FL007 wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:53 pm
Nurses doing nights/days usually have a period to re adjust.
Checked out shift schedules at a hospital lately ? Nurses typically do 12 hour shifts, 2 days, followed immediately by 2 nights. Yes, they finish a day shift at 1930 and are expected to show up for a 12 hour night exactly 24 hours later.
24hrs is a lot better than working 4am until 10am, then 9pm the same night until 11am.. I'd love 24hrs to readjust, just not 9hrs like I can flick a switch and "rest" on command.

There's no defending these duty rules. Nurses also make more than double the first year than a 704 FO.

We're comparing apples to oranges, I was just bringing up the fact that all shift workers besides pilots are required to abide by labor laws, which in some regards are more strict than pilot regs.

We all know of people getting shafted at work, but these duty regs are an absolute problem, especially on a challenging weather day. I even know friends who have had an extended duty day who had to deadhead 3-4hrs afterwards (21hr shift), would the labor board accept that? Absolutely not.
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Re: Minisiter of Transport M Garneau braggs about Swoop

Post by av8r374 » Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:40 am

FL007 wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:30 am

24hrs is a lot better than working 4am until 10am, then 9pm the same night until 11am.. I'd love 24hrs to readjust, just not 9hrs like I can flick a switch and "rest" on command.

There's no defending these duty rules. Nurses also make more than double the first year than a 704 FO.

We're comparing apples to oranges, I was just bringing up the fact that all shift workers besides pilots are required to abide by labor laws, which in some regards are more strict than pilot regs.

We all know of people getting shafted at work, but these duty regs are an absolute problem, especially on a challenging weather day. I even know friends who have had an extended duty day who had to deadhead 3-4hrs afterwards (21hr shift), would the labor board accept that? Absolutely not.
I agree duty regs are long overdue for an overhaul. What would be a good system to have?

Referencing your post from earlier about other aviation shift workers. 705 Dispatchers do not get scheduled meal breaks. Meals are usually eaten at their desk. Short breaks (<10 mins) taken to go get/warm up food, go to the bathroom etc. During those breaks, control must be transferred to another dispatcher who has a lot on their plate as is. They can plan/watch upwards of 50 flights per day, can be glued to a computer screen for 12 hours straight dealing with multiple flights that have weather etc. It is a high stress job that requires multi-tasking and concentration for hours on end. They can work 4-7 12 hour days straight (talk about challenging weather day). It's not quite a walk in the park either.
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Re: Minisiter of Transport M Garneau braggs about Swoop

Post by FL007 » Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:05 am

av8r374 wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:40 am
FL007 wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:30 am

24hrs is a lot better than working 4am until 10am, then 9pm the same night until 11am.. I'd love 24hrs to readjust, just not 9hrs like I can flick a switch and "rest" on command.

There's no defending these duty rules. Nurses also make more than double the first year than a 704 FO.

We're comparing apples to oranges, I was just bringing up the fact that all shift workers besides pilots are required to abide by labor laws, which in some regards are more strict than pilot regs.

We all know of people getting shafted at work, but these duty regs are an absolute problem, especially on a challenging weather day. I even know friends who have had an extended duty day who had to deadhead 3-4hrs afterwards (21hr shift), would the labor board accept that? Absolutely not.
I agree duty regs are long overdue for an overhaul. What would be a good system to have?

Referencing your post from earlier about other aviation shift workers. 705 Dispatchers do not get scheduled meal breaks. Meals are usually eaten at their desk. Short breaks (<10 mins) taken to go get/warm up food, go to the bathroom etc. During those breaks, control must be transferred to another dispatcher who has a lot on their plate as is. They can plan/watch upwards of 50 flights per day, can be glued to a computer screen for 12 hours straight dealing with multiple flights that have weather etc. It is a high stress job that requires multi-tasking and concentration for hours on end. They can work 4-7 12 hour days straight (talk about challenging weather day). It's not quite a walk in the park either.
I'm sorry but that is against the labor code and if that's the case then that is to be taken up with the labor board. If I can't fly due to duty regs I don't, I fly within my prescribed rules which are outdated, and I highly recommend dispatchers work by their prescribed rules, which are dictated by labor law.

For whatever reason if labor laws are being broken in terms of dispatching its up to the Dispatcher to make sure their rights are upheld.

Breaks are mandated, lunch breaks are mandated, and workplace safety is mandated. There's no excuse.
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Re: Minisiter of Transport M Garneau braggs about Swoop

Post by MattK » Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:19 am

Comparing other jobs is not relevant, short of them having potentially fatal results due to poor performance. Piloting is different than sitting at a desk at 3am. That should be obvious. As is the environmental and physiological influences of altitude, light, temperature, constant sitting etc etc.

It is also difficult to compare to shift workers, even in general, since they most often have a standard, set schedule (ie. 4 on, 4 off etc). A pilots sked is permitted to change day to day and, throw in reserve, and you have dangerous situation. The example of starting reserve at 8am (for 12 hours), getting called at 7pm for a 14 hour duty is the perfect example. There is absolutely NO WAY that anyone can prepare for that and safely operate. Yet in Canada it is legal.

One potential solution would be to have duty limits but account for any flying completed between midnight at 6am as counting for 1.5 or 2 times the legal hour limit. So along with rest requirements if you fly all night those 6 hours will count as 12 towards monthly and yearly limits. This allows the human body to recover since the total monthly hours will decrease.
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Re: Minisiter of Transport M Garneau braggs about Swoop

Post by complexintentions » Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:45 am

I'm all for safety and defending better regs for pilots. But pulling out some outlier example of a situation that depends on a mechanical problem to put you into an extra-long day isn't a valid argument. Complaining that you're tired because you "woke up at 9am, like a normal human" and didn't plan properly for the 2pm standby start? Come on. You want to be a pilot, you do have to take SOME of the schedule challenges that come with being one.

Have to agree wth AuxBatOn on this one. Take care of yourself, organize your schedule, protect your "sleep hygiene". Yes, there will be times when in spite of your best efforts, you will just be...tired. Guess what, so are workers in other fields. And yes, it's true that mistakes made by pilots can have consequences far more serious than most other professions. At the same time, pilots are given more tools in the form of a working partner and a whole slew of automation as well to assist them, advantages not on offer to most other professions either. Family obligations are challenges, but they are not valid excuses.

If you're genuinely tired and unfit to fly, of course report sick. If you're tired al the time, it may be time to consider another occupation. Aviation isn't, has never been, and never will be a nine to five job. This isn't news, is it?

And you guys are getting more long-haul airplanes? If you think domestic schedules are difficult. well...good luck with that.
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Re: Minisiter of Transport M Garneau braggs about Swoop

Post by Rezy » Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:22 am

As much as everyone believes they can make it work by iron manning through it, or manage it better, or whatever. The simple fact is we are all human and all are subject to the same human factors. This is scientifically proven, which is why every other country has more restrictive fatigue rules. So if you want to armchair quarterback all the science and all the facts - go right ahead, just know that science and facts are against you. Our fatigue rules are in the dark ages and the rest of the world gets it. It’s time to open our eyes and look beyond our own front lawn, when it comes to fatigue.
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Re: Minisiter of Transport M Garneau braggs about Swoop

Post by complexintentions » Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:28 am

Rezy wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:22 am
As much as everyone believes they can make it work by iron manning through it, or manage it better, or whatever. The simple fact is we are all human and all are subject to the same human factors. This is scientifically proven, which is why every other country has more restrictive fatigue rules. So if you want to armchair quarterback all the science and all the facts - go right ahead, just know that science and facts are against you. Our fatigue rules are in the dark ages and the rest of the world gets it. It’s time to open our eyes and look beyond our own front lawn, when it comes to fatigue.

Unfortunately, until you can actually quantify with data that Canada's rules are less safe than others' - and hyperbole such as "our fatigue rules are in the dark ages" doesn't qualify - nothing will change.

If you really believe the "rest of the world gets it", it's obvious you've never flown in the rest of the world.
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