Well that didn’t take long for Swoop FA’s to unionize

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RidersRule
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Well that didn’t take long for Swoop FA’s to unionize

Post by RidersRule »

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4739810

Im not surprised that the WestJet FA’s unionized. It’s been coming for awhile. I’m surprised how the Swoop FA’s are included in this.

When the arbitrator ruled that WestJet and Swoop pilots were common employer, does that apply to all employee groups?
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Re: Well that didn’t take long for Swoop FA’s to unionize

Post by Old fella »

Can’t believe the salary structure for WJ FAs, starting first year Nurse wages on average are higher than top WJ FA. Who in the f—— would want to work at WJ for that money, that is if the article as noted is correct.
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share-once
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Re: Well that didn’t take long for Swoop FA’s to unionize

Post by share-once »

Old fella wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:13 pm
Can’t believe the salary structure for WJ FAs, starting first year Nurse wages on average are higher than top WJ FA.
You're right. Nurses should make even more.
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Re: Well that didn’t take long for Swoop FA’s to unionize

Post by HansDietrich »

Old fella wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:13 pm
Can’t believe the salary structure for WJ FAs, starting first year Nurse wages on average are higher than top WJ FA. Who in the f—— would want to work at WJ for that money, that is if the article as noted is correct.
You're not seriously comparing a Nurse (RN) with a 4 year degree, with a a Flight Attendant that requires 6 weeks of training (at best). If you are, you need to get your head checked.
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Re: Well that didn’t take long for Swoop FA’s to unionize

Post by altiplano »

share-once wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:54 pm
Old fella wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:13 pm
Can’t believe the salary structure for WJ FAs, starting first year Nurse wages on average are higher than top WJ FA.
You're right. Nurses should make even more.
Totally! Degree vs. 2 week course for an unskilled labourer.

I like many of the FAs I work with, and many of them do their jobs well... but you have to keep the perspective... in essence: push cart, pour biscuit, toss drink, take an annual safety course.

Everyone deserves a living wage, but it shouldn't be a 40-50 year career... but you get what you negotiate and it's not any of my business.
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billgeno
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Re: Well that didn’t take long for Swoop FA’s to unionize

Post by billgeno »

altiplano wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:26 pm
share-once wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:54 pm
Old fella wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:13 pm
Can’t believe the salary structure for WJ FAs, starting first year Nurse wages on average are higher than top WJ FA.
You're right. Nurses should make even more.
Totally! Degree vs. 2 week course for an unskilled labourer.

I like many of the FAs I work with, and many of them do their jobs well... but you have to keep the perspective... in essence: push cart, pour biscuit, toss drink, take an annual safety course.

Everyone deserves a living wage, but it shouldn't be a 40-50 year career... but you get what you negotiate and it's not any of my business.
I really think that this post needs to be addressed.

Comparing the wage a nurse earns to a flight attendant is like comparing apples to microwaves. Both positions require the skills and knowledge to perform the role effectively. One requires more education than the other, however both are important to the industry they serve. Both jobs should be paid as much as can be negotiated, and the thought that one should make more than the other is silly. Should a tower crane operator make less than a computer programmer because the tower crane operator only had to take an 8 week course and apprentice for about a year and a half and the computer programmer went to university for 4 year? See, the comparison doesn't make sense, but I'll tell you, I sure hope the crane operator who poured the concrete in any building I am ever in has slept well and is paid enough to feel themselves and their family.

On the points regarding the training received and responsibilities an FA holds, the above post is just ignorant. They are in training (at least with our company) for a minimum of 5 weeks and it is hard. They don't breeze through learning how to "push cart, pour biscuit, toss drink, take an annual safety course". To devalue their job like that shows that you don't in-fact like the FAs you work with and you most certainly don't understand why we have them in the back. It's the training and preparedness you don't see that makes them a valuable resource and a trusted member of the crew. I am sure they could make the same argument with our function, after all what they see when up front is usually myself and the other pilot laughing and getting along well with some random button pushing and knob turning. Maybe pushing a lever here and there and moving the yoke around a bit when taking off and landing. But it looks easy right? So it can't be too hard and therefore we don't deserve that much.

Lastly, why can't it be a 40-50 year career? If someone enjoys what they do, why can't they do it for their entire working life? It's the same as not seeing a regional as a career airline.. Why not? If someone enjoys flying for Jazz, Porter, Encore, Sky, GGN and the list can go on, why not do it for their entire career? It just means a seat at a major for someone else, and it certainly isn't hurting you.
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Re: Well that didn’t take long for Swoop FA’s to unionize

Post by KAG »

Funny, swoop fas start higher then wj fas but top out lower.
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Re: Well that didn’t take long for Swoop FA’s to unionize

Post by Old fella »

HansDietrich wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:24 pm
Old fella wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:13 pm
Can’t believe the salary structure for WJ FAs, starting first year Nurse wages on average are higher than top WJ FA. Who in the f—— would want to work at WJ for that money, that is if the article as noted is correct.
You're not seriously comparing a Nurse (RN) with a 4 year degree, with a a Flight Attendant that requires 6 weeks of training (at best). If you are, you need to get your head checked.
Well, I was making a comparison in salary as both are professionals, I assume you do believe an FA is a trained professional essential to the safe operation and comfort of the people like me who are in back of your aircraft. That kind of remuneration for such work(FA) by WJ is atrocious and I would hope you do agree on that. As has been pointed out in another post on this subject you may be considered(by perception) a glorified go-train driver who pushes buttons only difference is you go faster and higher and why such a high salary to do that. Both of us know that is far from reality. I never worked for any airline but do travel on AC/WJ/Jazz/Porter and I consider their FAs to be highly trained professionals and in recognition of that I make a point of thanking them for the pleasant flight regardless when exiting the aircraft. As for Medical professionals I have a Dr daughter and a better half with a BN degree with 40 yrs experience, so I hear all about that as well.
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Re: Well that didn’t take long for Swoop FA’s to unionize

Post by aerobod »

With ESPP, profit share and per diem compensation is a minimum of 30% higher than the base wage. Many FAs earn 50% more by also picking up extra hours.

Also, a significant number of people at WestJet started their career as an FA and progressed into other roles throughout the company, being given preferential treatment as an internal applicant to any given job.
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Re: Well that didn’t take long for Swoop FA’s to unionize

Post by altiplano »

If you say so billgeno...

I realize my view isn't PC or whatever for some and I accept you think I'm ignorant ... it changes nothing.

As I said, I do think everyone deserves a living wage... and you get what you negotiate.

Job function is irrelevant whether I like someone or not, a personal thing, not related to their position. Everyone has their role.

It is what it is...

But it doesn't change that whether you are a gate agent, a call center employee, or an FA, it is a service position. No experience required, no license, no formal training beyond a course when you are hired. It is a low skill employee and readily replaceable... not a profession.

It is not comparable to nurses, engineers, electricians, AMEs, or pilots.
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Re: Well that didn’t take long for Swoop FA’s to unionize

Post by Sharklasers »

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Re: Well that didn’t take long for Swoop FA’s to unionize

Post by lownslow »

aerobod wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:03 am
Also, a significant number of people at WestJet started their career as an FA and progressed into other roles throughout the company, being given preferential treatment as an internal applicant to any given job.
Just like rampies!
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Re: Well that didn’t take long for Swoop FA’s to unionize

Post by GRK2 »

altiplano wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:26 pm
share-once wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:54 pm
Old fella wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:13 pm
Can’t believe the salary structure for WJ FAs, starting first year Nurse wages on average are higher than top WJ FA.
You're right. Nurses should make even more.
Totally! Degree vs. 2 week course for an unskilled labourer.

I like many of the FAs I work with, and many of them do their jobs well... but you have to keep the perspective... in essence: push cart, pour biscuit, toss drink, take an annual safety course.

Everyone deserves a living wage, but it shouldn't be a 40-50 year career... but you get what you negotiate and it's not any of my business.
You better frikkin HOPE you never need any medical attention on those flights where you enjoy the services of those cartpusinbiscuitpouringdrinktossing people. (I'd let ya die!) Or maybe you just don't care about anyone but yourself...
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Re: Well that didn’t take long for Swoop FA’s to unionize

Post by infiniteregulus »

The arguments are valid on both sides. A nurse has far more education and training and prerequisites to complete the function of their job, vs, an FA that requires only "6 weeks" from nothing. The daily function of a nurse draws much more from that prior education and training, whereby an FA should never have to use their emergency training, if everything goes normal. The daily grind for an FA is more so a race of endurance (long hours and bad customers can stretch that), by maintaining a professional composure and service, while maintaining vigilance in preparedness for the worse. A nurse (can) make life or death decisions, and the course of their daily duties have major impacts on the operation. Waitress (unskilled/minimal training) < FA (semi-skilled/semi-trained) < Nurse (skilled/trained). The matter of pay can be debated all day long. What one person values another is much like selling a used item - its only worth is what somebody is willing to pay - some more, some less. So I'd peg the salary based on prior education and training, daily value, dangerous/laborious duty, overall worth to the company, among other metrics. If waitress is 0% (~$13/h) and Nurse is 100% (~$35/h), FA would probably be around say, 50% ($24/h)???

Anyway, good on the FAs for unionizing.
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Re: Well that didn’t take long for Swoop FA’s to unionize

Post by digits_ »

GRK2 wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:22 am
You better frikkin HOPE you never need any medical attention on those flights where you enjoy the services of those cartpusinbiscuitpouringdrinktossing people. (I'd let ya die!) Or maybe you just don't care about anyone but yourself...
This topic has taken a really weird turn. With the exception of some exotic fetishists, I don't think there is anyone alive who ever hopes to receive medical care from a flight attendant?
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Re: Well that didn’t take long for Swoop FA’s to unionize

Post by altiplano »

Wishing death on, or withholding medical help from people who you disagree with is pretty extreme.

"Maybe I don't care about anyone but myself"...

Because I think being an FA is a service job and not a highly trained profession that requires prior experience and years of education/training? Because I know there is a glut of applicants that could be up and running in a few weeks? That's just a fact, man... don't shoot the messenger...
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Re: Well that didn’t take long for Swoop FA’s to unionize

Post by FAD3C »

Sharklasers wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:01 am
Old fella wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:31 am

I consider their FAs to be highly trained professionals
I would say highly trained is a big stretch.
I know this post is about WJ FAs, but look at Singapore Airlines.....their flight attendants undergo a four-month training programme.
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Re: Well that didn’t take long for Swoop FA’s to unionize

Post by altiplano »

www.traveller.com.au wrote:Still, I'm here on assignment. First, because the airline is celebrating the 50th anniversary of flights to Australia (the first flight, from Singapore – via Perth – landed in Sydney on April 5, 1967). And second, to find out why the new recruits go through four months of training – twice the industry standard – before graduating as fully fledged flight attendants.

Why so long? Since 1966, when Malaysian Airways Ltd became Malaysia-Singapore Airlines (MSA), exemplary service has been one of the airline's key points of difference from its rivals. It claims to have won more awards than any other airline, including being named "World's Best Cabin Crew Service" in the Business Traveller Asia-Pacific Awards for 23 consecutive years.
They aren't spending 4 months on a safety course. It's service. Really, approaching that level, I would tend to call them professionals. Much like a sommelier, or professional server. They are consistently ranked top globally. And they move on at, what, 35? 40?
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Re: Well that didn’t take long for Swoop FA’s to unionize

Post by Duke15 »

Sorry as a pilot who did a brief stint as an FA I can tell you that it was a joke of a course, I didnt study and passed no problem. Dont get me wrong they deserve a liveable wage but a nurse probably knows more than me as an airline pilot tbh. Flight attendants like their job because at major airlines it gives them the ability to work very few days a month and the travel benefits. They dont go into it for the money and ive heard several fas over the years say they dont care about the money they jsut do this for fun...well if thats your atitude thats exactly what youll get. I appreciate everything they do but the job is far from what it was years ago when service was high. Its honestly embarrasing to see the way canadian fas are dressed compared to airlines like emirates,cathay etc.(that not being their fault) but the other fas take pride in what they do.
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Re: Well that didn’t take long for Swoop FA’s to unionize

Post by fish4life »

GRK2 wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:22 am
altiplano wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:26 pm
share-once wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:54 pm


You're right. Nurses should make even more.
Totally! Degree vs. 2 week course for an unskilled labourer.

I like many of the FAs I work with, and many of them do their jobs well... but you have to keep the perspective... in essence: push cart, pour biscuit, toss drink, take an annual safety course.

Everyone deserves a living wage, but it shouldn't be a 40-50 year career... but you get what you negotiate and it's not any of my business.
You better frikkin HOPE you never need any medical attention on those flights where you enjoy the services of those cartpusinbiscuitpouringdrinktossing people. (I'd let ya die!) Or maybe you just don't care about anyone but yourself...
First thing an FA does is ask if their is any nurse or doctor onboard lol
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Re: Well that didn’t take long for Swoop FA’s to unionize

Post by GRK2 »

Asking for a member of the medical professions is what they are trained to do, but guess what? Odds are there's MAYBE one on the flight. So, guess what again? I there isn't anyone who can or will step up, all FA's have received certification to provide you with First Aid. Then there's defib training, and also probably MedLink on board So help is on the way right? My comment about letting someone die is sarcasm btw, take it as you will, but the statement about being a biscuit shooter is ages old and shows a serious lack of humanity and I probably would guess some form of misogynistic leanings. Certainly not what a decent airline would expect from it's employees. Grow up and learn how to be a part of a crew and maybe pay attention. You might need their training one day. I seriously hope you don't, but if you do, I hope you thank them for saving your butt.
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Re: Well that didn’t take long for Swoop FA’s to unionize

Post by Sharklasers »

37 percent of Canadians have first aid training. Smart money says that pilots in the pointy end are likely at least as qualified as the FAs. If either of them served anytime in the military they likely far surpass the FAs in both qualification and experience.
That does not make them professionals.
Lots of flight attendants do excellent jobs in their rolls, that does not make them "highly trained professionals".
That guy who cleans my pool does an excellent job and has taken manifacturer specific training and trained under another more experienced pool cleaner. That does not make him a "highly trained professional" and I doubt he's deluded enough to compare his roll to that of a nurse or pilot.
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altiplano
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Re: Well that didn’t take long for Swoop FA’s to unionize

Post by altiplano »

GRK2 you talk about your statements having sarcasm when wishing people dead, and then you go on to tell other people to get some humanity and grow up.

Get it straight man.

This was about nurse vs. FA training and experience... do you assert that FAs are more highly trained than nurses?

And it's not misogynistic, they are both female dominated jobs sure, but that has nothing to do with it... some jobs are more highly trained than others... Comparing a nurse to an FA is ridiculous. Pay attention!
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CD
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Re: Well that didn’t take long for Swoop FA’s to unionize

Post by CD »

Oh, how times have changed... :wink:
Lucile Garner was Canada’s first airline stewardess

NORA RYELL
Special to The Globe and Mail
Published March 28, 2013
Updated May 11, 2018

In 1938, Lucile Garner had the distinction of being the first Canadian airline stewardess hired by fledgling Trans-Canada Airlines (renamed Air Canada in 1965). At 5 feet 5 inches, she was actually considered tall for the stewardess requirements, but she had an important qualification besides her wholesome good looks: She was a trained nurse. For the dozen or so passengers crammed into a Lockheed Electra, this was an important consideration. Air sickness was a given on the more turbulent flights.

But Ms. Garner thought the job was a unique opportunity and a chance for adventure – something denied to most women in the Depression years of the 1930s. In a recent interview, she said: "Oh, to be a stewardess was something. It was an achievement, and the pay was $125 a month. Nurses didn't make that much money. It was an adventure, everything was new about it; it was a brand new life for women."
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Re: Well that didn’t take long for Swoop FA’s to unionize

Post by GRK2 »

altiplano wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:13 am
GRK2 you talk about your statements having sarcasm when wishing people dead, and then you go on to tell other people to get some humanity and grow up.

Get it straight man.

This was about nurse vs. FA training and experience... do you assert that FAs are more highly trained than nurses?

And it's not misogynistic, they are both female dominated jobs sure, but that has nothing to do with it... some jobs are more highly trained than others... Comparing a nurse to an FA is ridiculous. Pay attention!
At NO time did I compare any job to any level of profession...best you practice what you preach. Or at least read what I had to say before you start in on me. The two jobs can't be compared. I know because i have family members who do both, so please don't put that on me. As for being misogynistic? Jury is out on that.
The smartest and best advice I ever got early in my career was to make sure that ALL crew members get fair treatment. I've seen it work more times than not. The sh*t that bunch in the back of your ride can do to mess up your day if you piss 'em off? It's a long list! So lets's dispense with the labels OK? I will if you will... (And if you didn't get my slight, medically speaking, well that's just too bad...I don't ever apologize about bad jokes! :) I'm all done here, it's a bad idea to keep this thread alive.
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