Summer Storms

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CitationNation
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Summer Storms

Post by CitationNation »

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Last edited by CitationNation on Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
Transonic
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Re: Summer Storms

Post by Transonic »

No gust limits, just crosswind. You can add up to 25kts to VRef in gusty conditions.

The 737NG has predictive wind shear. A wind shear aural alert will trigger a go around/recovery.

The Tower doesn't make these decision. They'll only instruct a go around for insufficent spacing, disabled aircraft/vehicle on runway, airport closure, runway change etc.
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FL007
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Re: Summer Storms

Post by FL007 »

CitationNation wrote: Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:05 am It’s been quite a summer of severe thunderstorms and I’ve noticed recently Some Airliners really pushing the weather.

What is the limit for the 737 or does Westjet have an internal company max wind component.

In past two weeks:

737 at the FAF for 35R (YYC) given winds 320/ 42 gusting 58 with hail on the field and continuous moderate occasional severe turbulence and continued to land.

737 at the IAF To runway 23 in YYZ, given winds 190/20 gusting to 50 with a cell covering airport and advised tower they were going to attempt the approach, Tower then told them to go around.

Generally curious if it’s just Pilot discretion or are there no hard 737 or company wind gust limits?
Also occasional severe? Like yoke come out of your hand, almost flip the plane over, maintenance inspection on the ground severe?

People report severe too much and don't even know the definition of it.
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Legacy
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Re: Summer Storms

Post by Legacy »

My question is, if you were on tower listening to this, where were you? Right behind him? I think there is just a bit of pot stirring going on here.
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schnitzel2k3
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Re: Summer Storms

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

CitationNation wrote: Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:05 am It’s been quite a summer of severe thunderstorms and I’ve noticed recently Some Airliners really pushing the weather.

What is the limit for the 737 or does Westjet have an internal company max wind component.

In past two weeks:

737 at the FAF for 35R (YYC) given winds 320/ 42 gusting 58 with hail on the field and continuous moderate occasional severe turbulence and continued to land.

737 at the IAF To runway 23 in YYZ, given winds 190/20 gusting to 50 with a cell covering airport and advised tower they were going to attempt the approach, Tower then told them to go around.

Generally curious if it’s just Pilot discretion or are there no hard 737 or company wind gust limits?
Considering I watched a WS 737 come in for landing in YYC just ahead of an AC Airbus that had it's windshield punched in with hail (I was safely on the ramp) during a black wall supercell, y'all are crazy no matter how you slice it!

S.
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Donald
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Re: Summer Storms

Post by Donald »

FL007 wrote: Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:06 pm
CitationNation wrote: Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:05 am It’s been quite a summer of severe thunderstorms and I’ve noticed recently Some Airliners really pushing the weather.

What is the limit for the 737 or does Westjet have an internal company max wind component.

In past two weeks:

737 at the FAF for 35R (YYC) given winds 320/ 42 gusting 58 with hail on the field and continuous moderate occasional severe turbulence and continued to land.

737 at the IAF To runway 23 in YYZ, given winds 190/20 gusting to 50 with a cell covering airport and advised tower they were going to attempt the approach, Tower then told them to go around.

Generally curious if it’s just Pilot discretion or are there no hard 737 or company wind gust limits?
Also occasional severe? Like yoke come out of your hand, almost flip the plane over, maintenance inspection on the ground severe?

People report severe too much and don't even know the definition of it.

Agreed.

I was told by an Encore training captain (now a Swoop captain) that he had an FO report severe turbulence going into YVR when it was moderate by definition. I asked him why didn't correct him, and the response was "it would sound like I was lying to ATC". So you'd rather give an incorrect and serious pirep, as well as waste company time and money doing an unneccesary inspection. Yes.
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mbav8r
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Re: Summer Storms

Post by mbav8r »

Donald wrote: Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:25 am
FL007 wrote: Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:06 pm
CitationNation wrote: Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:05 am It’s been quite a summer of severe thunderstorms and I’ve noticed recently Some Airliners really pushing the weather.

What is the limit for the 737 or does Westjet have an internal company max wind component.

In past two weeks:

737 at the FAF for 35R (YYC) given winds 320/ 42 gusting 58 with hail on the field and continuous moderate occasional severe turbulence and continued to land.

737 at the IAF To runway 23 in YYZ, given winds 190/20 gusting to 50 with a cell covering airport and advised tower they were going to attempt the approach, Tower then told them to go around.

Generally curious if it’s just Pilot discretion or are there no hard 737 or company wind gust limits?
Also occasional severe? Like yoke come out of your hand, almost flip the plane over, maintenance inspection on the ground severe?

People report severe too much and don't even know the definition of it.

Agreed.

I was told by an Encore training captain (now a Swoop captain) that he had an FO report severe turbulence going into YVR when it was moderate by definition. I asked him why didn't correct him, and the response was "it would sound like I was lying to ATC". So you'd rather give an incorrect and serious pirep, as well as waste company time and money doing an unneccesary inspection. Yes.
Off topic but I’m curious, is this Encore Captain turned Swoop Captain part of the so called “dirty 30”?
I find this an interesting choice, presuming that an Encore training Captain would be close to flowing but at the very least had a number on the one list, then chose to roll the dice and screw over his colleagues to jump the que, assuming of course his status on the “dirty 30” list.
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Re: Summer Storms

Post by Donald »

mbav8r wrote: Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:37 am
Donald wrote: Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:25 am
FL007 wrote: Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:06 pm

Also occasional severe? Like yoke come out of your hand, almost flip the plane over, maintenance inspection on the ground severe?

People report severe too much and don't even know the definition of it.

Agreed.

I was told by an Encore training captain (now a Swoop captain) that he had an FO report severe turbulence going into YVR when it was moderate by definition. I asked him why didn't correct him, and the response was "it would sound like I was lying to ATC". So you'd rather give an incorrect and serious pirep, as well as waste company time and money doing an unneccesary inspection. Yes.
Off topic but I’m curious, is this Encore Captain turned Swoop Captain part of the so called “dirty 30”?
I find this an interesting choice, presuming that an Encore training Captain would be close to flowing but at the very least had a number on the one list, then chose to roll the dice and screw over his colleagues to jump the que, assuming of course his status on the “dirty 30” list.
Not a dirty 30. He flowed to mainline at least a year ago, then bid for the left seat after it was opened up internally.
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Re: Summer Storms

Post by CCR »

Our FOM crosswind numbers are considered "limits" by the company and includes the gust number as well. In the first example, the 52kt gust is 24.5kts when you calculate the 90 degree component. This is well within the dry numbers and .5kt under the wet runway number. There are further reductions to the limit based on runway condition/braking conditions.
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Re: Summer Storms

Post by Mach1 »

schnitzel2k3 wrote: Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:23 am Considering I watched a WS 737 come in for landing in YYC just ahead of an AC Airbus that had it's windshield punched in with hail (I was safely on the ramp) during a black wall supercell, y'all are crazy no matter how you slice it!

S.
So, they arrived safely ahead of another aircraft during a changing weather situation and this causes you concern? This AC aircraft, where exactly did it encounter this hail? On final? On descent? En-route? I'm presuming you know the exact location of the hail encounter. Perhaps two different arrival paths to the same runway? I would think you would be more concerned about the AC aircraft that lost a windshield to a hail encounter than the aircraft that arrived without any such damage, but maybe that's just me.
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Re: Summer Storms

Post by KAG »

Winds, turb, windshear is a very fluid thing - no 2 approaches will be the same. If it's just gusting 52 kts yes while bumpy (and fun) it's more then doable. If theres hail or windshear you're avoiding or going around.

As for severe turb, unless your out of control it's not severe. Just uncomfortable.
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Re: Summer Storms

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

Mach1 wrote: Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:20 pm
schnitzel2k3 wrote: Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:23 am Considering I watched a WS 737 come in for landing in YYC just ahead of an AC Airbus that had it's windshield punched in with hail (I was safely on the ramp) during a black wall supercell, y'all are crazy no matter how you slice it!

S.
So, they arrived safely ahead of another aircraft during a changing weather situation and this causes you concern? This AC aircraft, where exactly did it encounter this hail? On final? On descent? En-route? I'm presuming you know the exact location of the hail encounter. Perhaps two different arrival paths to the same runway? I would think you would be more concerned about the AC aircraft that lost a windshield to a hail encounter than the aircraft that arrived without any such damage, but maybe that's just me.
Safely? They were 2 minutes ahead of getting their windshield smashed in on the same runway. They landed in what I would consider very heavy rain, windshear, and weather bordering on hail.

I would call it luck of the draw.

I was right beside the end of the runway.

S.
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Re: Summer Storms

Post by NovaBoy »

If you think WS is pushing the wx limits in storms, try hanging out at a large US midwest or southern airport in the spring or summer. I hate thunderstorms, I'll tip toe around them, but 40kts, turbulence and 1200RVR is no problem. All what you are used to I guess.
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Re: Summer Storms

Post by Diadem »

schnitzel2k3 wrote: Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:00 pmThey were 2 minutes ahead of getting their windshield smashed in on the same runway.
How could they possibly have known that?
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Re: Summer Storms

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

Diadem wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:02 pm
schnitzel2k3 wrote: Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:00 pmThey were 2 minutes ahead of getting their windshield smashed in on the same runway.
How could they possibly have known that?
Likely couldn't of known until hindsight, but the weather they experienced approaching that runway must've been absolutely wild from their seats.
NovaBoy wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:30 am If you think WS is pushing the wx limits in storms, try hanging out at a large US midwest or southern airport in the spring or summer. I hate thunderstorms, I'll tip toe around them, but 40kts, turbulence and 1200RVR is no problem. All what you are used to I guess.
That particular day, that particular crew, yeah that would've been intense. I know the storms in Calgary don't quite compare to the ferocity of those in Texas and Georgia. This year in particularly has been weird with the constant CB activity down the eastern coast and eastern states.

Spent lots of time at 450 trying to navigate the tops no success.

Let's see what hurricane season has in store.

S.
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Re: Summer Storms

Post by complexintentions »

NovaBoy wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:30 amIf you think WS is pushing the wx limits in storms, try hanging out at a large US midwest or southern airport in the spring or summer. I hate thunderstorms, I'll tip toe around them, but 40kts, turbulence and 1200RVR is no problem. All what you are used to I guess.
Or typhoon season in Asia. The South China Sea and southern Japan area gets more cyclonic storms per year than anywhere else in the world by a mile.

You have to assess each approach and conditions individually, but there are countless approaches and landings made every single day for months on end in conditions similar or worse to the one in the original post. Of course many flights are delayed or diverted during the very worst of it, but extreme conditions are by nature usually very short-lived.

If you cannot safely fly your aircraft to its certified limitations, then fly to your own, by all means. But expect to explain why.
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Re: Summer Storms

Post by FICU »

complexintentions wrote: Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:31 am Or typhoon season in Asia. The South China Sea and southern Japan area gets more cyclonic storms per year than anywhere else in the world by a mile.

You have to assess each approach and conditions individually, but there are countless approaches and landings made every single day for months on end in conditions similar or worse to the one in the original post.
Don't forget the usual increase in runway excursions in SE Asia due to landing in severe weather. Unstable approaches, long landings with tailwinds, and of course hydro-planing in deluges. Some break planes and others become mud bogged off-roaders. Avherald will be pumping them out.
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Re: Summer Storms

Post by complexintentions »

Not sure what your point is. I take it your bigotry only extends towards SE Asia? Aircraft also depart the runway unintentionally in Canada more during bad weather than good. Duh. Plenty of good stories in AvHerald about Canadian operators "breaking" airplanes, don't kid yourself.

Of course if you feel an approach isn't safe you should delay or abandon it. Anywhere.

That isn't the same thing as being incapable of operating your machine to its certified limits.
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Re: Summer Storms

Post by FICU »

Do you disagree that the majority of runway excursions due to landing, usually ill-advised, in severe convective weather occur in SE Asia?
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Re: Summer Storms

Post by Mach1 »

schnitzel2k3 wrote: Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:00 pm Safely?
Were they in an accident or incident you did not mention?
schnitzel2k3 wrote: Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:00 pm They were 2 minutes ahead of getting their windshield smashed in on the same runway.
I do hate to repeat myself but, I did ask questions. Where did the AC flight encounter the hail?
schnitzel2k3 wrote: Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:00 pm They landed in what I would consider very heavy rain, windshear, and weather bordering on hail.

I would call it luck of the draw.

I was right beside the end of the runway.

S.
Unless you actually had instrumentation to validate your opinion, then that is exactly what we are discussing. Your opinion. I just find it interesting that all of your concern is centered on the aircraft that had no damage and not the one who landed with damage. I have not seen you question their approach and landing and I am curious why? Was the weather better 2 minutes later when Air Canada landed? Is it just that you don't like WestJet? Other reasons not mentioned or guessed at?
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