No more WJ non-stop YEG-LAS

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WeedPro2000
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No more WJ non-stop YEG-LAS

Post by WeedPro2000 »

Well folks, it’s turning out to be a nail-biter of a finish. In May 2017, when WJ pilots pinned all their hopes and dreams to the tail of a donkey (see thesaurus for the other word I wanted to use), who knew what a brilliant series of counter punches the Herndon-sponsored team would play?

Late in the game, after triggering the strike WMD, the dream team has nailed down most of the important sections in the proposed CBA, with the exception of the following:

”The negotiating team had a productive two days with Mr. Kaplan during the meetings on July 14-15. This was really just a continuation of ongoing mediation-arbitration that has been taking place by phone/e-mail/teleconference since our last session. While he did not provide any rulings, we did make progress in supporting our positions on scheduling, hours of service, scope (job protection), Swoop, benefits, and retirement.

Tragically, Swoop and scope haven’t yet made the grade. And as such, WJ mainline pilots will no longer operate YEG-LAS. Is this part of ALPA’s plan? Now that ALPA and WJ agreed to common employer for Swoop and WJ, there isn’t any need for WJ to tiptoe around the issue. They can actually put on a pair of concrete galoshes and go stomping around the house at midnight without fear of repercussion.

Bravo Team ALPA Fanboi.

Here you are running out of options except to “make progress in supporting [your] positions”, something we called talking back in the old days, and an arbitrator is likely going to decide between competing proposals in a declining corporate profitability environment. You’ve got them by the short and curlies!

Enjoy your summer Jungs!
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Anon1234
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Re: No more WJ non-stop YEG-LAS

Post by Anon1234 »

:roll:

Was going to rebut this but you're not even worth the time.
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RidersRule
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Re: No more WJ non-stop YEG-LAS

Post by RidersRule »

Well thank goodness we don’t have the WJPA steering us through this mess. Could you imagine.

I have to say I have been very impressed with ALPA, and I was fairly non union just a short while ago.

So far they have negotiated me a 1:1 YOS which is about a 40% raise for me. Of course the company, not ALPA insisted on reserve so that’s going to be a major haircut for some of the OT kings that have T4’s in the 375 000 range (wink wink nudge nudge).

And WeedPro you don’t know what the WAWACON will be for Swoop. It could be the same as WestJet, so no harm no foul.

Of course. The devil is in the detail. Is it September yet?
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swimming
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Post by swimming »

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Last edited by swimming on Tue Oct 24, 2023 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
RidersRule
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Re: No more WJ non-stop YEG-LAS

Post by RidersRule »

That’s what I mean by devils in the details.

I’m cautiously optimist. Glass half full type of guy.

For what it’s worth I searched pay scales of all other airlines in Canada. I couldn’t find any more then 12 steps. Transat had 10. Full disclosure that info came from airline pilot central so maybe not at all accurate.

September can’t come soon enough.
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Legacy
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Re: No more WJ non-stop YEG-LAS

Post by Legacy »

Is there an ignore feature built into the settings? What an idiot this guy is. Only looking out for himself. Must be a lonely life.
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altiplano
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Re: No more WJ non-stop YEG-LAS

Post by altiplano »

WeedPro2000 wrote:WJ mainline pilots will no longer operate YEG-LAS. Is this part of ALPA’s plan?
I think it's apparent that this was your corporate leadership's plan all along - transfer away Westjet flying to the new airline at lower pay...

This is what you have been supporting these last months isn't it?
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lostaviator
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Re: No more WJ non-stop YEG-LAS

Post by lostaviator »

Under the old “system” a bunch of jpa and company folk would have a nice big family bbq and the rest of us would wake up the next morning and learn we will all start wearing pink ties and working 21 days a month starting Monday.

This was always their plan. We were always going to find ourselves dealing with a Swoop. How we protect ourselves is up to each employee group. I think the GO Swoop airport groups are slowing going to start realizing us (most) pilots aren’t so dumb after all when we wanted to protect our flying. Less wj flights in yeg = less csa jobs.
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tbaylx
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Re: No more WJ non-stop YEG-LAS

Post by tbaylx »

It was always the plan to transfer some routes to Swoop so that the mainline aircraft could be redeployed to routes that had higher yields or were better suited. It’s not a loss of mainline flying, it’s redeploying the existing assets for more efficient use.

Riders, do you think that the arbitrator is going to impose a 40% labor cost increase on Westjet across the board on a first contract? Honest question, it’d be great for pilots but I’ve never heard of an arbitrator that would do that. I suspect Swoop wages aren’t going to move much at all and mainline wages won’t be going up anywhere near 40%. Hope I’m wrong though.
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Hangry
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Re: No more WJ non-stop YEG-LAS

Post by Hangry »

tbaylx wrote: Sat Aug 04, 2018 8:29 am It was always the plan to transfer some routes to Swoop so that the mainline aircraft could be redeployed to routes that had higher yields or were better suited. It’s not a loss of mainline flying, it’s redeploying the existing assets for more efficient use.

Riders, do you think that the arbitrator is going to impose a 40% labor cost increase on Westjet across the board on a first contract? Honest question, it’d be great for pilots but I’ve never heard of an arbitrator that would do that. I suspect Swoop wages aren’t going to move much at all and mainline wages won’t be going up anywhere near 40%. Hope I’m wrong though.
Taking existing fins and painting them a different colour while giving the pilots a 40% pay cut is exactly a loss to mainline flying. Lol. You really are delusional.
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tbaylx
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Re: No more WJ non-stop YEG-LAS

Post by tbaylx »

Hangry wrote: Sat Aug 04, 2018 8:46 am
tbaylx wrote: Sat Aug 04, 2018 8:29 am It was always the plan to transfer some routes to Swoop so that the mainline aircraft could be redeployed to routes that had higher yields or were better suited. It’s not a loss of mainline flying, it’s redeploying the existing assets for more efficient use.

Riders, do you think that the arbitrator is going to impose a 40% labor cost increase on Westjet across the board on a first contract? Honest question, it’d be great for pilots but I’ve never heard of an arbitrator that would do that. I suspect Swoop wages aren’t going to move much at all and mainline wages won’t be going up anywhere near 40%. Hope I’m wrong though.
Taking existing fins and painting them a different colour while giving the pilots a 40% pay cut is exactly a loss to mainline flying. Lol. You really are delusional.
Those fins were replaced by max’s, there was no reduction in mainline capacity. It’s not a loss of mainline flying at all.
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mbav8r
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Re: No more WJ non-stop YEG-LAS

Post by mbav8r »

tbaylx wrote: Sat Aug 04, 2018 8:52 am
Hangry wrote: Sat Aug 04, 2018 8:46 am
tbaylx wrote: Sat Aug 04, 2018 8:29 am It was always the plan to transfer some routes to Swoop so that the mainline aircraft could be redeployed to routes that had higher yields or were better suited. It’s not a loss of mainline flying, it’s redeploying the existing assets for more efficient use.

Riders, do you think that the arbitrator is going to impose a 40% labor cost increase on Westjet across the board on a first contract? Honest question, it’d be great for pilots but I’ve never heard of an arbitrator that would do that. I suspect Swoop wages aren’t going to move much at all and mainline wages won’t be going up anywhere near 40%. Hope I’m wrong though.
Taking existing fins and painting them a different colour while giving the pilots a 40% pay cut is exactly a loss to mainline flying. Lol. You really are delusional.
Those fins were replaced by max’s, there was no reduction in mainline capacity. It’s not a loss of mainline flying at all.
Tbaylx,
I assume you’re a fairly smart guy so, you are either willfully blind or naive.
As of right now there may not be any reduction in mainline flying, that will change after the arbitration is over. If they do anything right now that affects mainline pilots, ALPA will have those facts on their side but if you think Swoop operating 40 fins won’t have a negative affect on mainline capacity, you’re one of the above.
WJ market share hasn’t really changed much over the last number of years and transferring 40 fins to a ULCC is not going to change that dramatically, it’s just going to be cheaper for those bargain hunters and a small percentage of new travelers, all of this is my opinion backed up with 29 years of being in this industry.
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aerobod
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Re: No more WJ non-stop YEG-LAS

Post by aerobod »

Going by historic arbitration awards for first contract negotiations in other industries, it is likely the arbitrator will stay within a 5% initial increase across the total compensation bill (all wages and benefits aggregated into the approximately $250m per year flight crew compensation), with perhaps 2% per subsequent year of a multi-year contract. So, how would things like YOS be funded? I believe some of the options are:

Elimination or reduction of RSUs and Stock Options - up to 15% of base wage increase possible;
Elimination or conversion of ESPP into DC pension plan - perhaps 10% in to DC plan, 10% into base wage;
Elimination or reduction of profit share - up to 10% of base wage possible;
Overtime eliminated or minimised by using reserve instead, thereby removing the overtime premium - ~5% of base wage possible;
Adjust the scale to incorporate Swoop rates at the bottom, but have a single hourly rate scale;
Shift scheduling changes to allow the company more predictability and resource availability at optimum cost;
Defer benefits beyond the base scale until a certain number of YOS have been obtained (for example any remaining profit share or share awards).

There are lots of possibilities for give & take, but the arbitrator will make sure the outcome is balanced.
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rudder
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Re: No more WJ non-stop YEG-LAS

Post by rudder »

Compensation is compensation and costs are costs. I have not seen anything publicly that mandates in the terms of reference for the arbitration that a certain cost increase cap is in place. Therefore, it would appear to rely on strength of argument. I also do not predict windfall gains for either party (individuals perhaps but not entire pilot group).

No reason that resulting WAWCON for SWOOP will not look surprisingly similar to ROUGE (and since there is no legitimately established cost benchmark at SWOOP, it is in fact a blank slate for the arbitrator). So what that leaves is WJ mainline WAWCON plus benefits (including pension). AC has a new, innovative, and substantial pension program now in place as an alternative to tradional DB. So if achieving a real pension benefit is an issue for the WJ ALPA negotiating committee, then that is a likely model. And it may come at the cost of reductions in RSU’s, ESPP, and profit sharing (although the AC pilots now have a meaningful and substantial profit sharing program). Similarly, reductions in pilot efficiency (credits) may come at the cost of reductions in RSU’s, ESPP, and profit sharing.

Pilot costs are going up at WJ as result of the pilots desire to bargain collectively. But how a WJ pilot derives his/her T4 gross amount and retirement benefit is likely going to change as a result of this process. The result will be good for the WJ pilots as a group and good for the profession.
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Longtimer
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Re: No more WJ non-stop YEG-LAS

Post by Longtimer »

Following are the registration details for the 4 Swoop aircraft, note the dates:
4 Record(s) Found
Owner Regist. Since

C-FONK Boeing 737-8CT 40835 Swoop Inc. 2018-08-02
C-FPLS Boeing 737-8CT 60132 Swoop Inc. 2018-06-14
C-GDMP Boeing 737-8CT 60131 Swoop Inc. 2018-06-01
C-GXRW Boeing 737-8CT 39082 Swoop Inc. 2018-07-13
And here are the dates etc for the 737-8 new aircraft for WestJet
http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur/2/C ... c&m=%7c%7c
so they are following the 4 for 4.
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RidersRule
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Re: No more WJ non-stop YEG-LAS

Post by RidersRule »

Tbalyx,

I’ll say it a third time just for you...with more emphasis.

THE DEVIL IS IN THE DETAILS. THE DETAILS WILL BE RELASED IN SEPTEMBER.

No where did I say anything about a 40% increase across the board. In fact, YOS will have no effect on anyone who is already at the top of the captain scale. I am sure you know how YOS work.

YOS mostly effects guys like me who sat EIGHT years in the right seat and waited for our turn to be captain. Or the fella who I just flew with the past week who is in year eight and dosent know when he will receive his left seat. “I’ve never felt so demoralized” was the quote I heard from him in the flight deck.

But you wouldn’t know anything about that would you...
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aerobod
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Re: No more WJ non-stop YEG-LAS

Post by aerobod »

Longtimer wrote: Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:25 am Following are the registration details for the 4 Swoop aircraft, note the dates:
4 Record(s) Found
Owner Regist. Since

C-FONK Boeing 737-8CT 40835 Swoop Inc. 2018-08-02
C-FPLS Boeing 737-8CT 60132 Swoop Inc. 2018-06-14
C-GDMP Boeing 737-8CT 60131 Swoop Inc. 2018-06-01
C-GXRW Boeing 737-8CT 39082 Swoop Inc. 2018-07-13
And here are the dates etc for the 737-8 new aircraft for WestJet
http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur/2/C ... c&m=%7c%7c
so they are following the 4 for 4.
This is consistent with Swoop being additive to mainline capacity, which is the published plan, not a substitution for it. The lease extensions announced for mainline on the -700s keep the mainline fleet the same or growing as the -800 tails are moved to Swoop, as opposed to being returned to the original plan when the MAXs arrived.
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tbaylx
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Re: No more WJ non-stop YEG-LAS

Post by tbaylx »

rudder wrote: Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:18 am Compensation is compensation and costs are costs. I have not seen anything publicly that mandates in the terms of reference for the arbitration that a certain cost increase cap is in place. Therefore, it would appear to rely on strength of argument. I also do not predict windfall gains for either party (individuals perhaps but not entire pilot group).

No reason that resulting WAWCON for SWOOP will not look surprisingly similar to ROUGE (and since there is no legitimately established cost benchmark at SWOOP, it is in fact a blank slate for the arbitrator). So what that leaves is WJ mainline WAWCON plus benefits (including pension). AC has a new, innovative, and substantial pension program now in place as an alternative to tradional DB. So if achieving a real pension benefit is an issue for the WJ ALPA negotiating committee, then that is a likely model. And it may come at the cost of reductions in RSU’s, ESPP, and profit sharing (although the AC pilots now have a meaningful and substantial profit sharing program). Similarly, reductions in pilot efficiency (credits) may come at the cost of reductions in RSU’s, ESPP, and profit sharing.

Pilot costs are going up at WJ as result of the pilots desire to bargain collectively. But how a WJ pilot derives his/her T4 gross amount and retirement benefit is likely going to change as a result of this process. The result will be good for the WJ pilots as a group and good for the profession.
Why would anyone want to give up the ESPP for a DC pension. With the ESPP you can sell the shares, move them to a TFSA or spousal RRSP and self manage your retirement in a tax efficient manner. With a DC pension you get to buy overpriced Manulife mutual funds and have no control over your investments. What’s the attraction? Am I missing something?
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Last edited by tbaylx on Sat Aug 04, 2018 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
tbaylx
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Re: No more WJ non-stop YEG-LAS

Post by tbaylx »

RidersRule wrote: Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:30 am Tbalyx,

I’ll say it a third time just for you...with more emphasis.

THE DEVIL IS IN THE DETAILS. THE DETAILS WILL BE RELASED IN SEPTEMBER.

No where did I say anything about a 40% increase across the board. In fact, YOS will have no effect on anyone who is already at the top of the captain scale. I am sure you know how YOS work.

YOS mostly effects guys like me who sat EIGHT years in the right seat and waited for our turn to be captain. Or the fella who I just flew with the past week who is in year eight and dosent know when he will receive his left seat. “I’ve never felt so demoralized” was the quote I heard from him in the flight deck.

But you wouldn’t know anything about that would you...
I’d actually know quite a bit about that, I suspect given the hiring that’s going to go on at Westjet in the near future that he won’t be waiting long unless he chooses to bid the 787.
YOS implemented retroactively would affect every captain that isn’t at top scale, so while not across the board, that’s a pretty large cost increase that has to come from somewhere, which is why I doubt anyone is going to see an arbitrated 40% increase in pay.
Id guess Sunwing/Transat would be the comparison for Swoop that an arbitrator would be looking at.
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rudder
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Re: No more WJ non-stop YEG-LAS

Post by rudder »

tbaylx wrote: Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:56 am
Why would anyone want to give up the ESPP for a DC pension. With the ESPP you can sell the shares, move them to a TFSA or spousal RRSP and self manage your retirement in a tax efficient manner. With a DC pension you get to buy overpriced Manulife mutual funds and have no control over your investments. What’s the attraction? Am I missing something?
AC is no longer in a straight DC plan. I am certain that the WJ ALPA negotiating committee has received a full briefing from ACPA (soon to be AC ALPA) on their plan.

As for what is the best retirement option, that is a good question for a WJ pilot to answer.
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