No more WJ non-stop YEG-LAS

Discuss topics relating to Westjet.

Moderators: ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, North Shore

tbaylx
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 734
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2004 6:30 pm

Re: No more WJ non-stop YEG-LAS

Post by tbaylx » Sat Aug 04, 2018 5:59 pm

lostaviator wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 2:43 pm
I go back and forth on the esp front but this year have fallen more in the exploring other options direction. But like everything else, it’s out of our hands now.

- having 40% of your salary locked up in one stock is quite excessive. Especially now given the devaluation from last year and not one estimate of it going back up.
- we pay large amounts of tax on those esp contributions.
- a 20% stock price decrease washes out the companies 50% match once taxation etc is factored in.
- If I wasn’t forced to, wja isn’t a stock I would put a dime into with my own funds.

On the flip side, I think your statement about mutual funds is correct.

Personally I would just be happy getting my 20% company match in cash with no “pension” vechicle at all. I’m disciplined enough to put away what I need and I definitely make more off private investments than I do in my esp.
Fair points but isn't your salary only locked up for a year, then you can start selling the shares for cash? I wouldnt want to keep them in WJA stock. And yes you pay tax on it for the year, but if you then take the shares you sell and invest them into a spousal RRSP in something other than WJ stock, you get an offsetting tax credit and then your spouse can withdraw the shares at her tax bracket three years after your last contribution. (a good thing assuming your spouse makes less than you do)

You are exposed to stock price fluctuations, but you get offsetting capital gains/losses taxed at a favorable rate and assuming you sell them on a regular basis that should even out between the declines and the increases.

In the end you get to be in charge of your money vs paying a manulife manager exorbitant amounts to manage it for you and underperform the market
---------- ADS -----------
  

lostaviator
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 281
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:42 pm

Re: No more WJ non-stop YEG-LAS

Post by lostaviator » Sat Aug 04, 2018 6:42 pm

Spousal rrsp’s sound like a disaster in the making with our professions divorce rate. I’ll have to talk to my attorney regarding that before exploring that option. Haha.

The trouble has always been deciding where to put that esp money. Tfsa, rsp or unregistered. This years stock performance has been a big education piece for me personally and I have adjusted my savings plan accordingly but hey, it’s a stock, and will always be a gamble.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
KAG
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3575
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 11:24 pm

Re: No more WJ non-stop YEG-LAS

Post by KAG » Sat Aug 04, 2018 8:59 pm

Tbaylx, sounds awesome doesn't it? The espp, the freedom to do what you will. It's a double edge sword. Been doing it for 11+ years and it's hardly worth the stress. If you can afford it great, but if you're going into debt to afford to live then I strongly suggest you dial it back to a livable amount. Your net pays will be laughable at best, I'm guessing you cant even contribute yet can you? Haven't been online long enough. Just wait, when those deductions kick in you'll choke. Then ask yourself was dragging your name and reputation through all this sh!t worth 4 stripes, and a declining stock you'll struggle to buy in the first place. Give it a few years, your opinion will change. Mine did.then again, you may be on fir a huge windfall with the new CBA...time will tell
---------- ADS -----------
  
The feet you step on today might be attached to the ass you're kissing tomorrow.
Chase lifestyle not metal.

RidersRule
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 155
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 1:21 am

Re: No more WJ non-stop YEG-LAS

Post by RidersRule » Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:42 pm

tbaylx wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 5:53 pm
RidersRule wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 4:54 pm
cloak wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 3:25 pm


Considering that changing over to YOS is very costly, is it likely that it is introduced in stages, like initially one for four or three, etc?

1:1 has been agreed upon already, that is a fact.

The unknown is what the pay scales are. I can’t imagine them adding steps or the scales going down, as the arbitrator has said he is using Rouge and AC as the template. Hence the big raise for those of us that waited long to upgrade.

But like I said, we’ll find out in September.

What I am really curious about is the 23 remaining captains like Tblayx that are out of seniority, costing the company double the wage due to the bypass positions.

Tyblayx can talk like he knows how WestJet works, but if I have figured out anything over the last few years it’s that WestJet has become really cheap. I’m curious how the company removes them from their positions(if the arbitrator dosent do it first, that’s still a possibility). This executive is all about the money, and the 23 cost double what everyone else does. Would you keep them?
I wouldn't worry too much about us,
Show me where in my post I said I was worried about you...

Just remember. This is the company that took away our 10 year passes. I was told they cost an extra 10 cents an hour. Food for thought
---------- ADS -----------
  

Piston-Broke
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:15 pm

Re: No more WJ non-stop YEG-LAS

Post by Piston-Broke » Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:54 am

Ah yes.. the unsustainable 10 year passes. If that isn’t a FU by taking away a one time recognition of service (a couple of free flights on your airline) for being a loyal and dedicated employee. Especially when you miss it by a few months. Then they wonder why a guy won’t pick up his phone on a long weekend or extend a little past 14 hours. There’s cheap and then there’s deliberate. Another example of the erosion of culture here and corporate greed. Tripping over dollars to save pennies comes to mind.
---------- ADS -----------
  

DropTanks
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 201
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 7:56 am

Re: No more WJ non-stop YEG-LAS

Post by DropTanks » Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:15 am

Piston-Broke wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:54 am
Ah yes.. the unsustainable 10 year passes. If that isn’t a FU by taking away a one time recognition of service (a couple of free flights on your airline) for being a loyal and dedicated employee. Especially when you miss it by a few months. Then they wonder why a guy won’t pick up his phone on a long weekend or extend a little past 14 hours. There’s cheap and then there’s deliberate. Another example of the erosion of culture here and corporate greed. Tripping over dollars to save pennies comes to mind.
Let’s not forget the attempt to remove the 4 free AST stock transfers per year at $25 ea. Unsustainable I believe was the term used. Funny how such a little thing was the final straw and incited revolt! I think those are simply disconnected middle manager moves to justify their own existence. That’s the problem. Too many middle managers trying to keep their own gravy train thundering down the tracks.
---------- ADS -----------
  

tbaylx
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 734
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2004 6:30 pm

Re: No more WJ non-stop YEG-LAS

Post by tbaylx » Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:49 am

KAG wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 8:59 pm
Tbaylx, sounds awesome doesn't it? The espp, the freedom to do what you will. It's a double edge sword. Been doing it for 11+ years and it's hardly worth the stress. If you can afford it great, but if you're going into debt to afford to live then I strongly suggest you dial it back to a livable amount. Your net pays will be laughable at best, I'm guessing you cant even contribute yet can you? Haven't been online long enough. Just wait, when those deductions kick in you'll choke. Then ask yourself was dragging your name and reputation through all this sh!t worth 4 stripes, and a declining stock you'll struggle to buy in the first place. Give it a few years, your opinion will change. Mine did.then again, you may be on fir a huge windfall with the new CBA...time will tell
It’s already coming off but we’re limited to 10%. You still have to be able to eat, so yeah you need enough left at the end of the day to pay the bills.
It’s not like you’re losing the money though, it’s savings that you can access after one year. So the first year you don’t have access to the money, but after that you can withdraw it, so you should be able to take out as much as you put in no?
In any case I’d rather control my retirement savings than put it in a DC plan with one of the big mutual fund companies to manage.
---------- ADS -----------
  

pacman007
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 95
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 7:25 pm

Re: No more WJ non-stop YEG-LAS

Post by pacman007 » Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:54 am

“It’s not like your loosing money though”

Hahah good one tell that to the WestJet Pilots that have lost 35% on espp this year alone... not to mention options for the last 5 years gone.... you just don’t get it...
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
aerobod
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 213
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2014 3:35 pm

Re: No more WJ non-stop YEG-LAS

Post by aerobod » Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:36 am

The 10 year length of service passes were not removed, they went from the company paying all the tax to CRA (as they are taxable benefits), to being provided purely as a taxable benefit. The usage period expanded from 12 months to 24 months with that change in 2016, though.

Ironically the change with the AST transfers costs was a reflection of WestJet returning to it's roots where employees get to make their own choice and manage their own finances as opposed to the company subsidizing the activity,

The free enterprise spirit has been somewhat beaten out of the employees over the past number of years by entitlement, something that is not un-expected when reaching a given size and the consequent detachment between the employees as a whole. This doesn't just apply to those on the frontline, but to management too.
---------- ADS -----------
  

tbaylx
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 734
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2004 6:30 pm

Re: No more WJ non-stop YEG-LAS

Post by tbaylx » Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:42 am

pacman007 wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:54 am
“It’s not like your loosing money though”

Hahah good one tell that to the WestJet Pilots that have lost 35% on espp this year alone... not to mention options for the last 5 years gone.... you just don’t get it...
I'm sure they weren't complaining when it went up 35%. It's a stock, they go up and down and some of that 35% loss is self inflicted via strike vote. Sit on the stock for a bit or carry forward the capital losses and claim them against future years capital gains, or apply it against previous years capital gains. All options you don't have in a DC plan in mutual funds.
---------- ADS -----------
  

tbaylx
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 734
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2004 6:30 pm

Re: No more WJ non-stop YEG-LAS

Post by tbaylx » Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:50 am

lostaviator wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 6:42 pm
Spousal rrsp’s sound like a disaster in the making with our professions divorce rate. I’ll have to talk to my attorney regarding that before exploring that option. Haha.

The trouble has always been deciding where to put that esp money. Tfsa, rsp or unregistered. This years stock performance has been a big education piece for me personally and I have adjusted my savings plan accordingly but hey, it’s a stock, and will always be a gamble.
Yeah they are owned by the spouse, don't do it if you're not relatively confident in still being together.

Regardless you can also contribute to your own RRSP and gain the same tax break, just you have to pay tax at your marginal rate when withdrawing. I'd rather put it into a TFSA at that point if it isn't already maxed.

I choose put the ESPP in unregistered, pay the tax for the first year then withdraw and contribute to my or my spousal RRSP and get the tax break in year two. That way the money is no longer in westjet stock and i can manage it in a self directed account buying low cost ETF's.

Sucks for the first year as KAG mentioned when your net pay is reduced, but it's one year of forced savings pain.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
aerobod
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 213
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2014 3:35 pm

Re: No more WJ non-stop YEG-LAS

Post by aerobod » Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:53 am

In my almost 12 years at WestJet, the stock was down significantly about 4 of those years compared with previous levels. If the stock wasn't down I would sell every 3 months, if down I would hold. Of the options 2 out of 12 allocations expired due to being underwater. Over the whole period I paid a significant amount of capital gains and eliminated a large capital loss I had started with when I joined the company. Proper financial and risk management of the shares led to a quite a bit of tax savings in my case, compared with getting the same compensation only as income or bonus.
---------- ADS -----------
  

moe
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 225
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 3:20 pm

Re: No more WJ non-stop YEG-LAS

Post by moe » Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:56 am

STFU already tbaylx

Pest.
---------- ADS -----------
  

tbaylx
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 734
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2004 6:30 pm

Re: No more WJ non-stop YEG-LAS

Post by tbaylx » Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:02 am

moe wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:56 am
STFU already tbaylx

Pest.
Thanks for that Moe, i have a much better understanding of the ESPP issues because of your contribution to the thread. :roll:
---------- ADS -----------
  

fish4life
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1675
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2010 6:32 am

Re: No more WJ non-stop YEG-LAS

Post by fish4life » Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:14 am

Tbay, I’ve seen take home checks of friends that are 737 cpts and it is around 14-1500 due to the taxing of the ESP.
---------- ADS -----------
  

FICU
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1228
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:37 am

Re: No more WJ non-stop YEG-LAS

Post by FICU » Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:17 am

tbaylx wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 5:59 pm
In the end you get to be in charge of your money vs paying a manulife manager exorbitant amounts to manage it for you and underperform the market
My shitty Manulife DC funds have done 13% over the last 5 years and 9.8% over the last 10 years. Pick the right portfolio and you'll be fine.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Last edited by FICU on Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:28 am, edited 2 times in total.

Hangry
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 128
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:05 am

Re: No more WJ non-stop YEG-LAS

Post by Hangry » Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:25 am

tbaylx wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:02 am
moe wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:56 am
STFU already tbaylx

Pest.
Thanks for that Moe, i have a much better understanding of the ESPP issues because of your contribution to the thread. :roll:
There’s that vomit in my mouth again. It’s just so annoying seeing someone who’s been at “WJ” for all of 2 seconds wax poetic about all things WJ. Especially after what you did. You really do have no shame. But why would you. :vom:
---------- ADS -----------
  

tbaylx
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 734
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2004 6:30 pm

Re: No more WJ non-stop YEG-LAS

Post by tbaylx » Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:26 am

FICU wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:17 am
tbaylx wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 5:59 pm
In the end you get to be in charge of your money vs paying a manulife manager exorbitant amounts to manage it for you and underperform the market
My shitty Manulife DC funds have done 13% over the last 5 years and 9.8% over the last 10 years. Pick the right portfolio and you'll be fine.
Mine have done well too, i have access to the same ones you do.

If you held the same securities in an ETF you would have done 14%. You're still paying the approximately 0.5-0.6% MER/IMF (5T fees are also lower than others after they adjusted them in 2012-13, many are over 1%) fee to manulife vs a .05% fee on an average ETF. That's ten times higher fees at Manulife. Over the course of 20 years of investments that's 10's of thousands of dollars out of your pocket. Just because the market has done well doesn't mean you aren't overpaying on your investments.
---------- ADS -----------
  

tbaylx
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 734
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2004 6:30 pm

Re: No more WJ non-stop YEG-LAS

Post by tbaylx » Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:30 am

Hangry wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:25 am
tbaylx wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:02 am
moe wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:56 am
STFU already tbaylx

Pest.
Thanks for that Moe, i have a much better understanding of the ESPP issues because of your contribution to the thread. :roll:
There’s that vomit in my mouth again. It’s just so annoying seeing someone who’s been at “WJ” for all of 2 seconds wax poetic about all things WJ. Especially after what you did. You really do have no shame. But why would you. :vom:
I'm not wax'ing anything, just trying to understand why the hate for an ESPP when it appears to be a far better way of managing your retirement than mutual fund based DC pension. If you can look past your own personal problems with Swoop DEC's to answer the question then feel free. I'm under no illusions that everything is a Shangri La at WJ or Swoop.
---------- ADS -----------
  

FICU
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1228
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:37 am

Re: No more WJ non-stop YEG-LAS

Post by FICU » Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:33 am

tbaylx wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:26 am
Over the course of 20 years of investments that's 10's of thousands of dollars out of your pocket. Just because the market has done well doesn't mean you aren't overpaying on your investments.
DC is our only option so we make the best of it and I'm doing just fine.

What was so bad about working for the TSB to want to join Swoop as an outsider?
---------- ADS -----------
  

tbaylx
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 734
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2004 6:30 pm

Re: No more WJ non-stop YEG-LAS

Post by tbaylx » Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:41 am

FICU wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:33 am
tbaylx wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:26 am
Over the course of 20 years of investments that's 10's of thousands of dollars out of your pocket. Just because the market has done well doesn't mean you aren't overpaying on your investments.
DC is our only option so we make the best of it and I'm doing just fine.

What was so bad about working for the TSB to want to join Swoop as an outsider?
I agree if it's your only option you do what you can, at least the fees got dropped there so they aren't outrageous. I don't see why you'd voluntarily choose to go to that system though if you had a better option.
Nothing wrong with the TSB, some great folks there. Send me a PM if you want my personal reasons for leaving for Swoop.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Piston-Broke
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:15 pm

Re: No more WJ non-stop YEG-LAS

Post by Piston-Broke » Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:14 pm

The 10 year passes now at my tax bracket essentially means I pay half of whatever the ticket is worth (another 50% off confirmed if you may) I don’t need anymore taxable benefits.. paying over $7000 a year for LTD and STD is enough “benefits” for me.
---------- ADS -----------
  

moe
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 225
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 3:20 pm

Re: No more WJ non-stop YEG-LAS

Post by moe » Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:33 pm

Yep, it would be nice to rid ourselves of that ~$600 ltd/std ding every month..
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
aerobod
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 213
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2014 3:35 pm

Re: No more WJ non-stop YEG-LAS

Post by aerobod » Sun Aug 05, 2018 2:16 pm

Piston-Broke wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:14 pm
The 10 year passes now at my tax bracket essentially means I pay half of whatever the ticket is worth (another 50% off confirmed if you may)
The CRA only assesses 50% of the market value of the taxable benefit, so if your total top marginal tax rate is 50%, 25% of the value will be paid in tax, so it is effectively a 75% off confirmed ticket.
---------- ADS -----------
  

RidersRule
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 155
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 1:21 am

Re: No more WJ non-stop YEG-LAS

Post by RidersRule » Sun Aug 05, 2018 3:49 pm

The 10 year passes, if I had chosen to use them, would have costed me about $800 in tax. I have plenty of kids, a Wife with a business, and $2200 in WestJet dollars due to using my RBC card a lot. There is no incentive for me to use the 10 year passes. I’ll just go 50% off confirmed, which by the way is a great program.

The fact of the matter is the company used to pay the taxes. They don’t anymore. They were taken away from me.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Post Reply

Return to “WestJet”