China_CAAC's Merged Threads

[Tacoma]

[Tacoma]

And Tablyx the flying Swoop failed to be approved for is now going to picked up by Weedpro2000 at $204.56hr X 1.5= 306.84hr X (20% ESP through time bank cash out) +$61.37= $368.21 per HOUR. And you wonder why guys are a bit peeved you are doing it for $104hr with 10% ESP for a grand total of $114.40hr. I Agree with CB in 2013 when he said give your head a shake!!

And just so you know more then half the FO’s at mainline make more then you did as a captain. And Why?? Because you helped stangnant our growth.

[Hangry]

Gonna be a weird vibe when the real WJ pilots are forced to work with the OTS meat in the right seat.

Capt: I’m SOP and let’s get this done safely.

FO: I tried to steal food from your mouth and take advantage of your labour dispute.



I’m sure everyone will be Pros but it’s probably gonna be pretty quiet in there.

[Rezy]

A few of the OTS guys won’t be downgraded due to their status as managers, as for the rest I guess we’ll just have to wait and see if it’s a freeze or protection.
Why do you guys care anyway? It doesn’t affect you.

If I were you I’d seek employment elsewhere, whoever has been feeding you lines about pay protection probably was feeding you lines about training, keeping your seat, and who knows what else. I think you’re all being used by Swoop management because they need you for a few months until things transition.
I’m seriously throwing you a bone here, not trying to ruin your career. You’ve got no reason to trust anyone in Swoop management and neither does any WJ Pilot.

[Dizzy D]

So you are saying it’s ironic for Encore pilots to have an opinion on a thread like this? Are you implying that Encore pilots lowered the bar? Last I checked we had nothing to do with our current pay standards. There are many of us here fighting to get better WAWCON. I believe the majority of Encore pilots want to make it better here, not only for themselves, but for the pilots to come on the property after them and for the industry as a whole.

So you're saying that you didn't decide the WOWCON at Encore, but saw an ad and opportunity that although was below airlines like JAZZ and Porter that operate similar aircraft and on similar routes, it was right for you and you took it, and in the meantime you are trying to improve the situation? Don't you think the same can be said about this situation? Except that the pay at Swoop although lower than WestJet mainline, was comparable with Sunwing, Transat, etc. It's all a matter of perspective and how one looks at the situation from all angles not one's own.

Someone asked is the government changing regulations considered market forces? The answer imo is that all these things are a portion and play a part in determining market forces.

Take housing market for example. The housing market was overheated in many cities particularly Vancouver and Toronto. There were lots of foreign buyers that greatly influenced the market. The government brought in legislation to cool off the market. And that it did. Now we can ask is changing the regulations market forces? Well it plays a part in it. All things do. An individual could have said the market is overheated and I will not be a party to it and will not buy in this market. Would that be market forces? This is the example of this situation and as though other people were saying do not buy in this market to cool it off. Now if everyone was able to follow it at the same time it may influence the market, but the truth is that everyone is in a different situation and makes decisions based on their circumstances and what is right for them. One who already has a place and can wait to buy cheap may like that idea, but another may not be able to do that. The same analogy can be used here that all things play a role in "market forces" including our individual actions, government regulations, the expansion and number of airlines, people travelling, etc. but clearly some don't have as big an impact.

I think your comparisons between encore and Swoop are out to lunch. When I accepted a job at Encore, I wasn’t trying to undercut pilots at WestJet, and my working conditions were black and white. When the OTS Swoop Pilots started at the company, there was a lot of uncertainty with the working conditions. You say the OTS swoop pilots were trying to improve their conditions, but at what cost? How many toes did they step on to improve their own personal conditions? I came to Encore, and I accepted the WAWCON I came into. Now I am trying to make it better for myself and all future Encore pilots. I don’t believe the same can be said for the Swoop OTS Pilots. They were willing to f#%k over a lot of pilots for their own benefit.

[Fanblade]

I agree that arbitrators don’t usually give large pay cuts or increases, which is why I don’t think Swoop rates will move that much from current levels. Guess we’ll see.

If an arbitrator let Swoops wages stand? That would be rewarding WJ's attempt to circumnavigate the agreement they had with their pilots. That in turn would encourage more bad behavior not just at WJ but elsewhere. That isn't going to happen.

Swoop wages will end up where the arbitrator figures they would have if an agreement had been reached between the parties. In this case there was already an agreement in place with a pay scale.

Standard practice is for your wage to be protected at its current dollar value until the new pay scale exceeds it.

[sarg]

A few of the OTS guys won’t be downgraded due to their status as managers, as for the rest I guess we’ll just have to wait and see if it’s a freeze or protection.
Why do you guys care anyway? It doesn’t affect you.

And that may be the case but not all managers need to be Captains. Westjet set that precedent when it had Ken McKEnzie trained and fly as a F/O until his number allowed him to hold a Captain's seat.

[hurtin'albertan]

A few of the OTS guys won’t be downgraded due to their status as managers, as for the rest I guess we’ll just have to wait and see if it’s a freeze or protection.
Why do you guys care anyway? It doesn’t affect you.

And that may be the case but not all managers need to be Captains. Westjet set that precedent when it had Ken McKEnzie trained and fly as a F/O until his number allowed him to hold a Captain's seat.

He (Mckenzie) was never a Captain.

Also, there have been a couple assistant Chief Pilots at WJ who were/are FOs. One just upgraded recently I think and the other is still an FO. Both good guys btw, and waiting their turn for the L seat.

Tbaylx, the order is clear: the OTS pilots will hold a position that their seniority allows, which is Swoop FO. Manager or not. Also, pay protection means that you won't lose the pay that you were so eager to sign on for, you won't take a cut. But you won't go up either. you're stuck at $103 or whatever it is until you are senior enough to make more.

[flyzam]

Also, pay protection means that you won't lose the pay that you were so eager to sign on for, you won't take a cut But you won't go up either.

Many keep saying this, and none provide any proof of their statements. Until then it is just conjecture and is only your opinion.

Maybe you should point out so.

[hurtin'albertan]

Also, pay protection means that you won't lose the pay that you were so eager to sign on for, you won't take a cut But you won't go up either.

Many keep saying this, and none provide any proof of their statements. Until then it is just conjecture and is only your opinion.

Maybe you should point out so.

Just read the wording in the order:

"Affected SWOOP pilots shall be awarded a position at Swoop at the Hamilton base, commensurate with their position on the WestJet Pilot Seniority List. Such individuals shall be pay protected until such time as they can bid into a position equal to the one from which they have been displaced."

Then google "pay protection principle" or "salary protection demotion" and see how this sort of thing works in the real world. Pretty sure it's what the arbitrator intended. Anyway as someone mentioned he remains available to clarify if needed. So I guess we will see what's what soon enough.

[RidersRule]

Also, pay protection means that you won't lose the pay that you were so eager to sign on for, you won't take a cut But you won't go up either.

Many keep saying this, and none provide any proof of their statements. Until then it is just conjecture and is only your opinion.

Maybe you should point out so.

Just read the wording in the order:

"Affected SWOOP pilots shall be awarded a position at Swoop at the Hamilton base, commensurate with their position on the WestJet Pilot Seniority List. Such individuals shall be pay protected until such time as they can bid into a position equal to the one from which they have been displaced."

Then google "pay protection principle" or "salary protection demotion" and see how this sort of thing works in the real world. Pretty sure it's what the arbitrator intended. Anyway as someone mentioned he remains available to clarify if needed. So I guess we will see what's what soon enough.

Hey, how dare you use a knowledgeable post to get in the way of a good rumour...

[RustyDeuce]

So you are saying it’s ironic for Encore pilots to have an opinion on a thread like this? Are you implying that Encore pilots lowered the bar? Last I checked we had nothing to do with our current pay standards. There are many of us here fighting to get better WAWCON. I believe the majority of Encore pilots want to make it better here, not only for themselves, but for the pilots to come on the property after them and for the industry as a whole.

So you're saying that you didn't decide the WOWCON at Encore, but saw an ad and opportunity that although was below airlines like JAZZ and Porter that operate similar aircraft and on similar routes, it was right for you and you took it, and in the meantime you are trying to improve the situation? Don't you think the same can be said about this situation? Except that the pay at Swoop although lower than WestJet mainline, was comparable with Sunwing, Transat, etc. It's all a matter of perspective and how one looks at the situation from all angles not one's own.

Someone asked is the government changing regulations considered market forces? The answer imo is that all these things are a portion and play a part in determining market forces.

Take housing market for example. The housing market was overheated in many cities particularly Vancouver and Toronto. There were lots of foreign buyers that greatly influenced the market. The government brought in legislation to cool off the market. And that it did. Now we can ask is changing the regulations market forces? Well it plays a part in it. All things do. An individual could have said the market is overheated and I will not be a party to it and will not buy in this market. Would that be market forces? This is the example of this situation and as though other people were saying do not buy in this market to cool it off. Now if everyone was able to follow it at the same time it may influence the market, but the truth is that everyone is in a different situation and makes decisions based on their circumstances and what is right for them. One who already has a place and can wait to buy cheap may like that idea, but another may not be able to do that. The same analogy can be used here that all things play a role in "market forces" including our individual actions, government regulations, the expansion and number of airlines, people travelling, etc. but clearly some don't have as big an impact.

I think your comparisons between encore and Swoop are out to lunch. When I accepted a job at Encore, I wasn’t trying to undercut pilots at WestJet, and my working conditions were black and white. When the OTS Swoop Pilots started at the company, there was a lot of uncertainty with the working conditions. You say the OTS swoop pilots were trying to improve their conditions, but at what cost? How many toes did they step on to improve their own personal conditions? I came to Encore, and I accepted the WAWCON I came into. Now I am trying to make it better for myself and all future Encore pilots. I don’t believe the same can be said for the Swoop OTS Pilots. They were willing to f#%k over a lot of pilots for their own benefit.

I read this over and over and over again (not specific to any one airline, by the way). Everyone looks out for themselves and then play the ".. trying to make it better for the next people" card. It's a perpetual state of repeating the same thing over and over. Look out for yourself even if it means taking a payout, then claim you are going to make it better for the next guy but when you don't improve anything and the next guy takes less than you, turn around and complain about how he/she is making the industry worse. Go figure. It's comical and makes for hours and hours and pages and pages of online forum trolling.

[RustyDeuce]

And btw many people complain about JS but he's only seeking to maximize what he can within the rules currently setup. 100% counter to the narrative that he's the problem.........

[cloak]

Speaking in general terms as not to upset anyone, when WestJet pilots agreed to Encore and people took jobs there, its pay and working conditions lowered industry standards. Later when it started flying on some of WestJet routes there was an initial panic, however naturally the company was redistributing its fleet according to demand. The same is now happening with Swoop.

When Jazz pilots accepted status pay for the 757 in order to get a little bump in pay for all, it lowered the standards for 757 pay. Later, even the little bump in pay that they had was not sustainable and they had to accept a new B scale which lowered industry standards. When Sky Regional started, its working conditions lowered industry standards too. When Transat introduced the new B scale it had the same effect. When Air Canada continues to enforce low entry wages, now for 4 years, it keeps the industry standards low. And on and on it goes. Most of these are companies with a union.

In comparison, Swoop was comparable with Sunwing and Transat 737. True that it wasn't as good as WestJet, however if its pilots were allowed to take LOA to go there for two years until things were sorted out, the negotiations could have continued, even with mediation and arbitration, and outside hiring would have been prevented. It could be argued that it was the union that forced WestJet in this direction.

At any rate, that process has culminated in the current situation and WestJet has agreed with single representation, there is no point in rehashing the past or attacking others who by the way helped set-up a safe operation. One who is equally unhappy in defeat or victory knows no happiness!

[lostaviator]

Speaking in general terms as not to upset anyone, when WestJet pilots agreed to Encore and people took jobs there, its pay and working conditions lowered industry standards. Later when it started flying on some of WestJet routes there was an initial panic, however naturally the company was redistributing its fleet according to demand. The same is now happening with Swoop.

The same is NOT now happening with Swoop.

Encore was a different fleet type and planes were not being taken from one pilot and given to another. Sure routes were assigned to different planes, but planes (and jobs) were not disappearing.

[cloak]

...all a matter of perspective. In fact the same IS happening. At that time the flying and jobs were (seemingly) leaving WestJet to go to another company (Encore) to which WestJet pilots did not have any access or interest. Now the flying and jobs are (seemingly) going to another company (Swoop) to which WestJet pilots do have an access and interest. While the Swoop flying is seemingly taking the place of WestJet flying, that WestJet flying will likely be replaced by other routes that are needed to cover the J.V. Swoop flying would not have existed without Swoop as it targets a different market, creates an opportunity for some and more revenue for ALPA. In effect, it would be either WestJet group or Flair or Jetlines covering those flights. While it is some people's position to always argue against management, it is not always right!

[lostaviator]

...all a matter of perspective. In fact the same IS happening. At that time the flying and jobs were (seemingly) leaving WestJet to go to another company (Encore) to which WestJet pilots did not have any access or interest. Now the flying and jobs are (seemingly) going to another company (Swoop) to which WestJet pilots do have an access and interest. While the Swoop flying is seemingly taking the place of WestJet flying, that WestJet flying will likely be replaced by other routes that are needed to cover the J.V. Swoop flying would not have existed without Swoop as it targets a different market, creates an opportunity for some and more revenue for ALPA. In effect, it would be either WestJet group or Flair or Jetlines covering those flights. While it is some people's position to always argue against management, it is not always right!

Jobs weren’t leaving as there was no proportional tail reduction at WJ when Encore placed orders for NEW planes. Management was (mostly) honest about the plan to focus the jets on more opportune routes.

Swoop is taking planes (which mean jobs) from one group of pilots and giving them to another group pilots. Management has been less than honest about the plans. Swoop will not take WJ flying... ask the Edmonton Vegas guests how that story turned out.

Not perspective. Fact.

[aerobod]

Swoop is being built on WestJet lease returns that have had the leases extended. -700s and a couple of -800s that were due to be returned when the MAX deliveries started have been retained and shuffled with newer -800s to build a Swoop fleet with a consistent configuration. There has been a growth of the WS fleet, which will continue as WO grows, its fleet growth limited by the availability of lease returns.

WestJet daily flight departures are higher than ever, even though some routes that would have been dropped due to being loss makers against Flair pricing in that market but are now viable again when being flown by Swoop.

[Dizzy D]

Cloak, you keep comparing Encore to Swoop. There are some major differences on how these two companies were formed. Encore was voted in by the employees, and swoop was formed by the company. You also compare the job that I took at Encore to an OTS hire at swoop. I’m just not buying your bullshit.

[cloak]

Swoop is being built on WestJet lease returns that have had the leases extended. -700s and a couple of -800s that were due to be returned when the MAX deliveries started have been retained and shuffled with newer -800s to build a Swoop fleet with a consistent configuration. There has been a growth of the WS fleet, which will continue as WO grows, its fleet growth limited by the availability of lease returns.
WestJet daily flight departures are higher than ever, even though some routes that would have been dropped due to being loss makers against Flair pricing in that market but are now viable again when being flown by Swoop.

My points exactly, without Swoop those planes would have been returned and flights covered by Flair, Jetlines, Norwegian, Indigo, etc. This way the growth at Swoop provides new opportunities for some and more dues for ALPA! Notwithstanding the optics of relationship with management, the conditions of creation for Encore and Swoop are very similar, except one flying was of no interest to WestJet pilots, the other was/is.