SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

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Benwa
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#101 Post by Benwa » Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:40 am

tbaylx wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 6:35 am
...
First, it’s pay protection, not a freeze, despite what some may think. Which means the new contract rates and annual steps.
...
Hopefully you're right and we'll get years of service at Swoop. Year 1 Captain should go down to 58$/hr as anyone holding Captain position through seniority will never see year 1 Captain pay rates. That way the company will save money on all OTS swoopsters. Don't you wish it was a pay freeze now?
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#102 Post by munzil » Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:49 am

Benwa wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:40 am
tbaylx wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 6:35 am
...
First, it’s pay protection, not a freeze, despite what some may think. Which means the new contract rates and annual steps.
...
Hopefully you're right and we'll get years of service at Swoop. Year 1 Captain should go down to 58$/hr as anyone holding Captain position through seniority will never see year 1 Captain pay rates. That way the company will save money on all OTS swoopsters. Don't you wish it was a pay freeze now?
Man some of you guys are so vindictive. Let it go. Be a better person.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#103 Post by Fanblade » Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:47 am

tbaylx wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 6:35 am

With the wide body growth at mainline, Swoop wages likely arbitrated below mainline rates it won’t be long before there is enough movement that we can bid back for our positions using our new seniority number.
Arbitrators in general don't hand out pay cuts. They also don't hand out much in the way of gains. They are keenly aware that to do so would embolden one of the two sides to not negotiate seriously the next time around.

Can you define: "it won't be long"?
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#104 Post by lostaviator » Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:25 am

Dreamliner Delivery

2019 3
2020 3
2021 4

These planes are not going to bring the extreme movement being envisioned by some.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#105 Post by Tacoma » Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:20 am

Pay protection is a Pay Freeze. You are protected from not having to start at year 1 Swoop FO rate of $55ish per hour. That is it. For example if the current WJ pay scales were to stay the same as they are today, in 5 years you’d be eligible for your first pay increase above your current $103hr as 6th year WJ FO sits at $106.

Once WAWCON are established at SWOOP, the captain positions will go much more senior then they went on the bypass bid. Current WJ captains will bid for YEG, YHM and (potentiallyYXX) captain positions if and when it is a good deal.

For the next few months as WJ pilots fly wetlease for Swoop, passengers will receive the exact same level of service from the pilots upfront as they would from swoop pilots. That will be a pretty good case point for the arbitrator to prove why WAWCON should be the same at both. Same job. Same plane. Same route. Same company.

We will find out in a few months when the management circular is released but I’d guess our new COO will receive 3-3.5 million dollars compensation for 2018(started last week). Our CFO received 2.5 million and EVP HR 2.1 million for 3 months work in 2015. It’ll be interesting how much less SG took then BC as Prez of swoop if WJ group thinks swoopsters all around should be payed less. I bet you it’s more!
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#106 Post by daedalusx » Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:27 am

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

It was a gamble. Very few applied to Swoop as OTS wether it was the pay, ALPA/ACPA blacklist nonsense or the gut feeling not wanting to step on our brothers and sisters while they were trying to improve their work conditions. At the end of the day, for a lot of us, the risk vs rewards just wasn't worth it. And I would suppose for a lot of the Swoop guys that applied OTS, it was a risk that was worth it and it could have very well went the opposite side and those guys would have jump a 5+ yrs queue with no consequences besides a few dirty looks and mean words on a anonymous forum ...

I can't really feel bad about any of those Swoop guys just like I can't feel bad about the dude who tanks his paycheck in a slot machine. Anyhow, all those guys got a current 737NG PPC so I'm sure no one will be starving comes Christmas.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#107 Post by tbaylx » Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:23 am

Tacoma wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:20 am
Pay protection is a Pay Freeze. You are protected from not having to start at year 1 Swoop FO rate of $55ish per hour. That is it. For example if the current WJ pay scales were to stay the same as they are today, in 5 years you’d be eligible for your first pay increase above your current $103hr as 6th year WJ FO sits at $106.

Once WAWCON are established at SWOOP, the captain positions will go much more senior then they went on the bypass bid. Current WJ captains will bid for YEG, YHM and (potentiallyYXX) captain positions if and when it is a good deal.

For the next few months as WJ pilots fly wetlease for Swoop, passengers will receive the exact same level of service from the pilots upfront as they would from swoop pilots. That will be a pretty good case point for the arbitrator to prove why WAWCON should be the same at both. Same job. Same plane. Same route. Same company.

We will find out in a few months when the management circular is released but I’d guess our new COO will receive 3-3.5 million dollars compensation for 2018(started last week). Our CFO received 2.5 million and EVP HR 2.1 million for 3 months work in 2015. It’ll be interesting how much less SG took then BC as Prez of swoop if WJ group thinks swoopsters all around should be payed less. I bet you it’s more!
Pay protection is not a pay freeze. Confirmed by those actually paying the bills. It’s whatever rates are negotiated in the new contract as if we were employed as a captain.
I agree that arbitrators don’t usually give large pay cuts or increases, which is why I don’t think Swoop rates will move that much from current levels. Guess we’ll see. If it does go up it’ll benefit the ots guys as well since they’re pay protected
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#108 Post by lostaviator » Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:08 pm

tbaylx wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:23 am
Tacoma wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:20 am
Pay protection is a Pay Freeze. You are protected from not having to start at year 1 Swoop FO rate of $55ish per hour. That is it. For example if the current WJ pay scales were to stay the same as they are today, in 5 years you’d be eligible for your first pay increase above your current $103hr as 6th year WJ FO sits at $106.

Once WAWCON are established at SWOOP, the captain positions will go much more senior then they went on the bypass bid. Current WJ captains will bid for YEG, YHM and (potentiallyYXX) captain positions if and when it is a good deal.

For the next few months as WJ pilots fly wetlease for Swoop, passengers will receive the exact same level of service from the pilots upfront as they would from swoop pilots. That will be a pretty good case point for the arbitrator to prove why WAWCON should be the same at both. Same job. Same plane. Same route. Same company.

We will find out in a few months when the management circular is released but I’d guess our new COO will receive 3-3.5 million dollars compensation for 2018(started last week). Our CFO received 2.5 million and EVP HR 2.1 million for 3 months work in 2015. It’ll be interesting how much less SG took then BC as Prez of swoop if WJ group thinks swoopsters all around should be payed less. I bet you it’s more!
Pay protection is not a pay freeze. Confirmed by those actually paying the bills. It’s whatever rates are negotiated in the new contract as if we were employed as a captain.
I agree that arbitrators don’t usually give large pay cuts or increases, which is why I don’t think Swoop rates will move that much from current levels. Guess we’ll see. If it does go up it’ll benefit the ots guys as well since they’re pay protected
Right.... because the people who pay the bills have been right about so many things lately.... don’t count on promises that are being made before the contract is out.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#109 Post by Diadem » Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:33 pm

cloak wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 6:44 am
So you're saying that you didn't decide the WOWCON at Encore, but saw an ad and opportunity that although was below airlines like JAZZ and Porter that operate similar aircraft and on similar routes, it was right for you and you took it, and in the meantime you are trying to improve the situation? Don't you think the same can be said about this situation? Except that the pay at Swoop although lower than WestJet mainline, was comparable with Sunwing, Transat, etc. It's all a matter of perspective and how one looks at the situation from all angles not one's own.
I don't think the establishment of Encore with lower wages than Jazz is a good comparison, seeing as Encore is a regional subsidiary intended to feed into WestJet's network. WestJet created Swoop using the exact same aircraft as WestJet already used, to operate on routes on which WestJet also operates, but with much, much, much lower pay, so it would be like Jazz creating a subsidiary operating Q400s and paying $20/hr. The fact that Encore pilots made less than the market average is less egregious than the fact that Swoop is intended to eat away at the bottom of WestJet's market, while not contributing anything to the rest of the company.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#110 Post by sarg » Sun Oct 07, 2018 2:39 pm

tbaylx wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:23 am
Tacoma wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:20 am
Pay protection is a Pay Freeze. You are protected from not having to start at year 1 Swoop FO rate of $55ish per hour. That is it. For example if the current WJ pay scales were to stay the same as they are today, in 5 years you’d be eligible for your first pay increase above your current $103hr as 6th year WJ FO sits at $106.

Once WAWCON are established at SWOOP, the captain positions will go much more senior then they went on the bypass bid. Current WJ captains will bid for YEG, YHM and (potentiallyYXX) captain positions if and when it is a good deal.

For the next few months as WJ pilots fly wetlease for Swoop, passengers will receive the exact same level of service from the pilots upfront as they would from swoop pilots. That will be a pretty good case point for the arbitrator to prove why WAWCON should be the same at both. Same job. Same plane. Same route. Same company.

We will find out in a few months when the management circular is released but I’d guess our new COO will receive 3-3.5 million dollars compensation for 2018(started last week). Our CFO received 2.5 million and EVP HR 2.1 million for 3 months work in 2015. It’ll be interesting how much less SG took then BC as Prez of swoop if WJ group thinks swoopsters all around should be payed less. I bet you it’s more!
Pay protection is not a pay freeze. Confirmed by those actually paying the bills. It’s whatever rates are negotiated in the new contract as if we were employed as a captain.
I agree that arbitrators don’t usually give large pay cuts or increases, which is why I don’t think Swoop rates will move that much from current levels. Guess we’ll see. If it does go up it’ll benefit the ots guys as well since they’re pay protected
You were employed as a Capt and that rate will be protected, but by the time the CBA is in effect you will be a F/O. You will not be a bypass Capt climbing a pay scale as you sit on a list waiting for a chance to move into a seat. You'll be a F/O waiting for the pay scale to climb to and exceed your protected status. Time will tell and the final order and CBA may further change those conditions as well.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#111 Post by tbaylx » Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:36 pm

A few of the OTS guys won’t be downgraded due to their status as managers, as for the rest I guess we’ll just have to wait and see if it’s a freeze or protection.
Why do you guys care anyway? It doesn’t affect you.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#112 Post by Ex DC10 Driver » Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:58 pm

Seriously?....of course it affected us and still does. “JoJo get back, get back to where you once belonged”..
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#113 Post by Sharklasers » Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:59 pm

tbaylx wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:36 pm
Why do you guys care anyway? It doesn’t affect you.

Well, I can only speak for myself but if you and your accomplices start missing car/alimony payments etc I would view it as a tiny bit of karmactic justice.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#114 Post by DropTanks » Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:16 pm

tbaylx wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:36 pm
A few of the OTS guys won’t be downgraded due to their status as managers, as for the rest I guess we’ll just have to wait and see if it’s a freeze or protection.
Why do you guys care anyway? It doesn’t affect you.
That’s fine but managers don’t hold a line on the flying schedule. That’s the point. They are outside the bargaining unit, paid as the company sees fit, conditions as agreed with the employer. But they don’t count as line pilots and therefore don’t prevent proper WJ pilots from holding the captain positions. As for pay protection...well it’s in managements best interest to keep you guys from all jumping ship at the same time so they’re feeding you a story about making gains and climbing the captain scale. That may well be the case but only Kaplan knows exactly what he meant by pay protection and rest assured that will be confirmed by someone other than Swoop/WJ management.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#115 Post by munzil » Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:20 pm

Sharklasers wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:59 pm
tbaylx wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:36 pm
Why do you guys care anyway? It doesn’t affect you.

Well, I can only speak for myself but if you and your accomplices start missing car/alimony payments etc I would view it as a tiny bit of karmactic justice.
Are you seriously hoping pilots miss their payments? What an evil little piece of skat you are.

Everytime I read statements like this on these boards I shake my head. Yeah yeah it is their fault and they deserve it and you are just the victim. Get a life.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#116 Post by Tacoma » Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:36 pm

:rolleyes:
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Last edited by Tacoma on Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#117 Post by Tacoma » Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:56 pm

And Tablyx the flying Swoop failed to be approved for is now going to picked up by Weedpro2000 at $204.56hr X 1.5= 306.84hr X (20% ESP through time bank cash out) +$61.37= $368.21 per HOUR. And you wonder why guys are a bit peeved you are doing it for $104hr with 10% ESP for a grand total of $114.40hr. I Agree with CB in 2013 when he said give your head a shake!!

And just so you know more then half the FO’s at mainline make more then you did as a captain. And Why?? Because you helped stangnant our growth.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#118 Post by Hangry » Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:39 pm

Gonna be a weird vibe when the real WJ pilots are forced to work with the OTS meat in the right seat.

Capt: I’m SOP and let’s get this done safely.

FO: I tried to steal food from your mouth and take advantage of your labour dispute.

:lol:

I’m sure everyone will be Pros but it’s probably gonna be pretty quiet in there.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#119 Post by Rezy » Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:08 pm

tbaylx wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:36 pm
A few of the OTS guys won’t be downgraded due to their status as managers, as for the rest I guess we’ll just have to wait and see if it’s a freeze or protection.
Why do you guys care anyway? It doesn’t affect you.
If I were you I’d seek employment elsewhere, whoever has been feeding you lines about pay protection probably was feeding you lines about training, keeping your seat, and who knows what else. I think you’re all being used by Swoop management because they need you for a few months until things transition.
I’m seriously throwing you a bone here, not trying to ruin your career. You’ve got no reason to trust anyone in Swoop management and neither does any WJ Pilot.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#120 Post by Dizzy D » Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:45 am

cloak wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 6:44 am
Dizzy D wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:17 pm
So you are saying it’s ironic for Encore pilots to have an opinion on a thread like this? Are you implying that Encore pilots lowered the bar? Last I checked we had nothing to do with our current pay standards. There are many of us here fighting to get better WAWCON. I believe the majority of Encore pilots want to make it better here, not only for themselves, but for the pilots to come on the property after them and for the industry as a whole.
So you're saying that you didn't decide the WOWCON at Encore, but saw an ad and opportunity that although was below airlines like JAZZ and Porter that operate similar aircraft and on similar routes, it was right for you and you took it, and in the meantime you are trying to improve the situation? Don't you think the same can be said about this situation? Except that the pay at Swoop although lower than WestJet mainline, was comparable with Sunwing, Transat, etc. It's all a matter of perspective and how one looks at the situation from all angles not one's own.

Someone asked is the government changing regulations considered market forces? The answer imo is that all these things are a portion and play a part in determining market forces.

Take housing market for example. The housing market was overheated in many cities particularly Vancouver and Toronto. There were lots of foreign buyers that greatly influenced the market. The government brought in legislation to cool off the market. And that it did. Now we can ask is changing the regulations market forces? Well it plays a part in it. All things do. An individual could have said the market is overheated and I will not be a party to it and will not buy in this market. Would that be market forces? This is the example of this situation and as though other people were saying do not buy in this market to cool it off. Now if everyone was able to follow it at the same time it may influence the market, but the truth is that everyone is in a different situation and makes decisions based on their circumstances and what is right for them. One who already has a place and can wait to buy cheap may like that idea, but another may not be able to do that. The same analogy can be used here that all things play a role in "market forces" including our individual actions, government regulations, the expansion and number of airlines, people travelling, etc. but clearly some don't have as big an impact.
I think your comparisons between encore and Swoop are out to lunch. When I accepted a job at Encore, I wasn’t trying to undercut pilots at WestJet, and my working conditions were black and white. When the OTS Swoop Pilots started at the company, there was a lot of uncertainty with the working conditions. You say the OTS swoop pilots were trying to improve their conditions, but at what cost? How many toes did they step on to improve their own personal conditions? I came to Encore, and I accepted the WAWCON I came into. Now I am trying to make it better for myself and all future Encore pilots. I don’t believe the same can be said for the Swoop OTS Pilots. They were willing to f#%k over a lot of pilots for their own benefit.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#121 Post by Fanblade » Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:49 am

tbaylx wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:23 am
I agree that arbitrators don’t usually give large pay cuts or increases, which is why I don’t think Swoop rates will move that much from current levels. Guess we’ll see.
If an arbitrator let Swoops wages stand? That would be rewarding WJ's attempt to circumnavigate the agreement they had with their pilots. That in turn would encourage more bad behavior not just at WJ but elsewhere. That isn't going to happen.

Swoop wages will end up where the arbitrator figures they would have if an agreement had been reached between the parties. In this case there was already an agreement in place with a pay scale.

Standard practice is for your wage to be protected at its current dollar value until the new pay scale exceeds it.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#122 Post by sarg » Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:40 am

tbaylx wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:36 pm
A few of the OTS guys won’t be downgraded due to their status as managers, as for the rest I guess we’ll just have to wait and see if it’s a freeze or protection.
Why do you guys care anyway? It doesn’t affect you.
And that may be the case but not all managers need to be Captains. Westjet set that precedent when it had Ken McKEnzie trained and fly as a F/O until his number allowed him to hold a Captain's seat.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#123 Post by hurtin'albertan » Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:49 pm

sarg wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:40 am
tbaylx wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:36 pm
A few of the OTS guys won’t be downgraded due to their status as managers, as for the rest I guess we’ll just have to wait and see if it’s a freeze or protection.
Why do you guys care anyway? It doesn’t affect you.
And that may be the case but not all managers need to be Captains. Westjet set that precedent when it had Ken McKEnzie trained and fly as a F/O until his number allowed him to hold a Captain's seat.
He (Mckenzie) was never a Captain.

Also, there have been a couple assistant Chief Pilots at WJ who were/are FOs. One just upgraded recently I think and the other is still an FO. Both good guys btw, and waiting their turn for the L seat.

Tbaylx, the order is clear: the OTS pilots will hold a position that their seniority allows, which is Swoop FO. Manager or not. Also, pay protection means that you won't lose the pay that you were so eager to sign on for, you won't take a cut. But you won't go up either. you're stuck at $103 or whatever it is until you are senior enough to make more.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#124 Post by flyzam » Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:43 pm

hurtin'albertan wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:49 pm
Also, pay protection means that you won't lose the pay that you were so eager to sign on for, you won't take a cut But you won't go up either.
Many keep saying this, and none provide any proof of their statements. Until then it is just conjecture and is only your opinion.

Maybe you should point out so.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#125 Post by hurtin'albertan » Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:19 pm

flyzam wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:43 pm
hurtin'albertan wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:49 pm
Also, pay protection means that you won't lose the pay that you were so eager to sign on for, you won't take a cut But you won't go up either.
Many keep saying this, and none provide any proof of their statements. Until then it is just conjecture and is only your opinion.

Maybe you should point out so.
Just read the wording in the order:

"Affected SWOOP pilots shall be awarded a position at Swoop at the Hamilton base, commensurate with their position on the WestJet Pilot Seniority List. Such individuals shall be pay protected until such time as they can bid into a position equal to the one from which they have been displaced."

Then google "pay protection principle" or "salary protection demotion" and see how this sort of thing works in the real world. Pretty sure it's what the arbitrator intended. Anyway as someone mentioned he remains available to clarify if needed. So I guess we will see what's what soon enough.
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