SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Discuss topics relating to Westjet.

Moderators: ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, North Shore

Post Reply
Message
Author
User avatar
aerobod
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 182
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2014 3:35 pm

Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#226 Post by aerobod » Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:46 pm

altiplano wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:58 pm
aerobod wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:11 am
As far as I can see outside of stated information in Airline Pilot Central, the RSU, Stock Option and Proifit Share components have not been captured. Spirit does state a profit share program, but no evidence in their financials of any significant payout, they also have no evidence of special share units or options being paid to anyone other than Execs. WestJet profit share has averaged about 10% of base salary for the past 10 years (with a range of 2% to just below 20% in a given year). with RSUs and stock options at about 15%, leading to 25% additional compensation (not including the tax advantage of capital gains as opposed to income tax on the options) in an average year on top of the Airline Pilot Central info is realistic, bringing the WestJet year 12 captain total compensation to $292K at 80 hours or $301K at the maximum 82.5 hours before overtime - this is borne out by the T4 slips from the senior pilots at WestJet and the compensation costs the company pays to pilots (if you are a WestJetter, you will have to talk to Finance to get details on that, but the information is available and tracked). The $370K or more T4 that JS quotes for himself is obviously based on quite a bit of overtime.

One other factor is how block time is measured and paid for. I can't find any details related to changes in the new Spirit CBA about moving away from "Block Out Time", defined by Spirit as taxiing at 0.5 knots. This will reduces block time by about 10% on an average 2 hour segment by not paying for pushback and any wait for congestion on the ramp. Spirit also has a no block time padding philosophy so uses a BTR0 of 50%, compared with a BTR0 in the 60 to 70% range for WestJet, pushing to reach the published on time arrival time for Spirit will compress the block time a further 5% or so on a 2 hour segment when comparing BTR0=50 to BTR0=65.
RSU's are discretion of the board, no?

Profit share and Options are contractual I understand, but again can you count on them? Profit share is ultimately a lot of discretion and conditions aren't always conducive to exercising options, I guess we'll see.

Not sure why you're adding in 30 hours to the WS figure in this comparison or splitting hairs on taxi speeds... Are you really getting into block growth to try to narrow your gap? Paid at 50 vs. 70 percentile block is better anyway... more free pay for all the more times you're early.

Additionally, if we're going to get into taxation as a benefit, like options exercised cashless and taxed as a capital gain vs. employment income, maybe you should start talking about the WS ESPP and the amount of taxes paid on that 40%... Or maybe we should bring in US taxes... Or employer (not) paid benefits... I don't think it's relevant to this discusiion.

I think you need to be comparing real money you can always expect to be paid month in, month out.

Anyway, I'll tell you one thing I know, AC widebody Captain with a son down there that upgraded quickly and is pulling in more than him month in month out... Fact is there is no comparison.
The current WestJet compensation is much more based on a high percentage of share and profit share compensation than any other airline I know of at the moment, so it is relevant to look at the whole picture. RSUs are confirmed by the board as are stock options, but were written into individual contracts at a certain percentage of pay (with a Black-Scholes multiplier applied to stock options), I'm assuming that will change with the CBA. Total compensation is the measure of what is earned, not base salary, but very risk adverse people don't seem to understand that and can't look at the whole picture over a 5 or 10 year period.

Taxi speed has nothing to do with the analysis, Spirit up until their labour agreement in Jan this year calculated crew pay based on "Block Out Time", something unique to them, not on actual block time that most airlines use. It was defined as starting when the aircraft was taxiing forward at 0.5 knots, so didn't include the block time from doors closed / off blocks to that initial taxi point in calculating crew pay. I'm not sure if that was removed in their current agreement.

On the block time, I'm not sure what you mean, as it is not a case of being paid to a certain percentile of block time, BTR0 is a measure of hitting the assigned block time, if you are working to a probability of BTR0=50%, then 50% of the time you are going to be below or at the assigned time, 50% above. If BTR0=65%, then 65% of the time you are going to be below or at the assigned time, 35% above. What that means for a given segment block time profile is that there is a distribution (likely either a Poisson or similar to a Normal distribution), of the block times, where BTR0=50 corresponds to nominally 2 hours on a 2 hour block and BTR0=65 corresponds to a longer block time, somewhere around 2 hours and 6 minutes is likely, but dependent on airport and flight characteristics, in this case the scheduled time for a flight when BTR0=50 is used will be 2:00, when BTR0=65 is used will be 2:06.

The US as with pretty well every profession at the current exchange rate will pay more, for pilots on average this pretty well matches the exchange rate differential at the moment, i.e USD $118,406 salary + USD $4,444 bonus for the US; CAD $121,421 salary + CAD $4,553 bonus for Canada, according to ERI salary survey data. If money is the only objective, then a move to the US is probably a wise career decision.
---------- ADS -----------
  

FL320
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 76
Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:44 am

Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#227 Post by FL320 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:14 pm

aerobod wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:52 am
Canada seems to be right in the middle for the G7 countries for average commercial pilot salary, below Japan, US and Germany, but above UK, France and Italy.
Just for your info: Air France first Year FO on 737 or A320 is 100 000 euros and I won’t talk about all their benefits as Canada is far behind France. Even a LCC like Frenchbee pays better than Air Canada..
Just my 2 cents
---------- ADS -----------
  

Maple_30
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:28 pm

Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#228 Post by Maple_30 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:24 pm

FL320 wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:14 pm
aerobod wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:52 am
Canada seems to be right in the middle for the G7 countries for average commercial pilot salary, below Japan, US and Germany, but above UK, France and Italy.
Just for your info: Air France first Year FO on 737 or A320 is 100 000 euros and I won’t talk about all their benefits as Canada is far behind France. Even a LCC like Frenchbee pays better than Air Canada..
Just my 2 cents
Sorry but no....
I'm from France and I know many people working at AF / Transavia, this is absolutely not the first year FO pay.
Average after tax salary at AF is 4,000€ 1st year FO.
Transavia France used to be 3500€ after tax and eventually up to 6,000€ after tax a month after year 5. (almost the same as Air France with the new contract now)
100K FO in France is year 5 on a B777. Which is in average 10 years after joining Air France.

The only big advantage of France vs Canada is the paid vacation you get, 42 days at Air France 1st year FO.

French Bee is by far the worst LCC operator in France. Absolutely not a reference. The only big players that are comparable to Air Canada in France are Corsair/Air France/Transavia.

Yes, the average salary in Europe is usually higher for the 1st years, but never forget that for 80% of the operators you have to finance your type rating, and that the training costs ARE WAY MORE expensive!

My 2 cents ;)
---------- ADS -----------
  

FL320
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 76
Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:44 am

Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#229 Post by FL320 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:31 pm

Average after tax salary at AF is 4,000€ 1st year FO.
This is base salary. I was talking 100 000 euros per year before tax ..and fact is from the job offer I got from AF ;)
They don’t even make 4000$ net as a base salary at AC first year...not even at year 4! 1st year base pay might be around 2600$/month net if you’re based in Ontario? Wow 😮
What do you get at WS?
Canada is definitely not in the middle of the G7 countries regarding pilot salaries...it is at the end of the list.
but never forget that for 80% of the operators you have to finance your type rating, and that the training costs ARE WAY MORE expensive!
I agree but their first job is on a A320 or 737 and by 25 they are Captains. You don’t have to pay for type ratings here and training is less expensive but how many years of shitty pay flying for shitty operators before you can get the exact same job? It took me 11 years.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Last edited by FL320 on Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:46 pm, edited 17 times in total.

True North
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 490
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 6:39 pm

Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#230 Post by True North » Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:44 pm

altiplano wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:19 pm
True North wrote:And the comparison utterly irrelevant.
Maybe. Maybe not... to you. I don't think it's irrelevant, and I didn't bring it into this conversation... but if you're going to make it, make it accurately.
I'm not trying to put anything down, but we need to keep an accurate picture of where we actually stand in terms of pay and compensation in this country.
True North wrote: So why are you comparing yourselves to American carriers?
Again, you may think it's irrelevant, but it is... You're a fool not to consider where we stand among other advanced economies. Do you not think other professionals compare themselves to the relevant world market? Architects? Doctors? Engineers? Even specialized skilled labour?

True North wrote:
I hope you CBA does reach equivalent compensation with Spirit/Southwest/Alaska/etc...
Dream on.
I didn't say it. Just trying to be positive to someone else's comment, and not a dickhead. Some people find that difficult, I know...
So anyone who disagrees with you is a dickhead?

You can compare yourself to anyone you want to but that is a fool's game. Architects, doctors, engineers etc are individuals not members of an employee group of hundreds or even thousands. A hospital or architectural firm can possibly afford to pay one individual above market to attract top talent, totally different than a group of thousands.

Tax structure, nav fees, airport landing fees and rents, the list goes on and on. All are structured differently in the US vs Canada. Canada has some of the highest fees in the world. US carriers earn US dollars, Canadian carriers earn Canadian dollars but pay for aircraft in US dollars. The list of differences is endless so any comparison between what a US carrier can afford to pay it's employees vs a Canadian carrier is pointless.

I guarantee you the arbitrator is not comparing WestJet compensation to any US carrier. But you go right ahead.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
aerobod
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 182
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2014 3:35 pm

Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#231 Post by aerobod » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:50 pm

FL320 wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:31 pm
Canada is definitely not in the middle of the G7 countries regarding pilot salaries...it is at the end of the list.
Please provide some wide ranging data from a reputable source that looks at the whole market, as opposed to one data point, to demonstrate that opinion is correct. I’ve benchmarked the ERI data against IT disciplines I have familiarity with in several countries and it has been as accurate as any salary data provider. They collect tens of thousands of surveys from employers and employees on a frequent basis across all industries. UK ex-pats I know who are pilots find the Canadian and UK salaries are comparable, which is what the ERI data says in showing the UK just behind Canada in the G7 country average pilot wages (would have been slightly ahead before the Brexit related devaluation of the £).
---------- ADS -----------
  

FL320
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 76
Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:44 am

Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#232 Post by FL320 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:39 pm

Easyjet Co Pilots Luton & Gatwick: A320 + Airbus CCQ (A330/40) - 2018/19
(08323)

UK Co Pilots
Permanent contract plus benefits
SFO £74,623 / FO £62,260
Start dates from winter 2018

This is a LCC based in the UK; Westjet is not a LCC but I would say they almost have the same ops. To get a job at WS you would be considered as a SFO by EZY in terms of flight hours. What is 1st Year FO at WS? (i honestly have no idea). Hope it’s more than 74,623$CDN
---------- ADS -----------
  
Last edited by FL320 on Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.

altiplano
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2956
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:24 pm

Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#233 Post by altiplano » Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:47 pm

True North wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:44 pm
So anyone who disagrees with you is a dickhead?
No, I said I was trying to be positive and not come off as a dickhead. I don't see the arbitrator handing down a windfall like Spirit rates, but aerobod said:
I’m sure WestJet will pay a base comparable to Spirit after the CBA is sorted
So to paraphrase, I said: I think you're way off, but I hope they do...

You see, I was trying to not be a dickhead.

We can disagree just fine on it. I think comparing yourself to others next door doing a similar job are fair comparisons, historically we have been comparable, but have fallen far behind over the past 15 years... I get it, you're anti-union, take what you get from management, are happy to settle because they must know best... good luck...

Regarding employee groups... of course doctors in Canada would disagree, their rates are set in negotiations between their respective association and government in this country and they absolutely look at comparable rates in other jurisdictions, not just Canada.

Thinking more about our industry in particular, I wonder where other labour find themselves relative their peers, I bet it's not a 30-40% discount... in fact I bet many are making out better.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
aerobod
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 182
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2014 3:35 pm

Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#234 Post by aerobod » Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:41 pm

FL320 wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:39 pm
Easyjet Co Pilots Luton & Gatwick: A320 + Airbus CCQ (A330/40) - 2018/19
(08323)

UK Co Pilots
Permanent contract plus benefits
SFO £74,623 / FO £62,260
Start dates from winter 2018

This is a LCC based in the UK; Westjet is not a LCC but I would say they almost have the same ops. To get a job at WS you would be considered as a SFO by EZY in terms of flight hours. What is 1st Year FO at WS? (i honestly have no idea). Hope it’s more than 74,623$CDN
On target earnings at WestJet will be above $75K, depending on hours, assuming no overtime. The Easyjet requirement though is for 500 hours on-type (A320) or 1000 hours on A330/340, there is no 737NG on-type requirement for WestJet FO recruits. Also the Easyjet positions are all contract (12 month’s renewable), with some benefits, but not equivalent to the benefits an employee is likely to receive (for example in the UK no NI, national pension, sick pay or private health plan coverage) and with no employee employment protection.
---------- ADS -----------
  

RidersRule
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 140
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 1:21 am

Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#235 Post by RidersRule » Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:22 pm

Aerobud u said...

“bringing the WestJet year 12 captain total compensation to $292K at 80 hours or $301K at the maximum 82.5 hours before overtime -“

That would be with no YOS, so a 12 year Captain could be in year 20 with the company.

I have been at WestJet for 12 years and make no where’s near that. (About 205). Although that might be changing as rumour has it 1:1 YOS has been agreed upon.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
aerobod
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 182
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2014 3:35 pm

Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#236 Post by aerobod » Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:33 pm

RidersRule wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:22 pm
Aerobud u said...

“bringing the WestJet year 12 captain total compensation to $292K at 80 hours or $301K at the maximum 82.5 hours before overtime -“

That would be with no YOS, so a 12 year Captain could be in year 20 with the company.

I have been at WestJet for 12 years and make no where’s near that. (About 205). Although that might be changing as rumour has it 1:1 YOS has been agreed upon.
No YOS assumption from me, yes could be someone who has been there for more than 12 years, I was assuming a captain for 12 years, I.e. the top of the current captain scale. I’m also assuming that all the scales will change in the CBA, including YOS as likely, I think the total pilot cost to WestJet will not change significantly based on first union contract arbitration history in Canada, but there are lots of creative re-mixing of the compensation that can be done that will give both sides some wins and some compromises.
---------- ADS -----------
  

eyebrow737
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 90
Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2016 6:33 am

Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#237 Post by eyebrow737 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:57 am

aerobod wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:33 pm
RidersRule wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:22 pm
Aerobud u said...

“bringing the WestJet year 12 captain total compensation to $292K at 80 hours or $301K at the maximum 82.5 hours before overtime -“

That would be with no YOS, so a 12 year Captain could be in year 20 with the company.

I have been at WestJet for 12 years and make no where’s near that. (About 205). Although that might be changing as rumour has it 1:1 YOS has been agreed upon.
No YOS assumption from me, yes could be someone who has been there for more than 12 years, I was assuming a captain for 12 years, I.e. the top of the current captain scale. I’m also assuming that all the scales will change in the CBA, including YOS as likely, I think the total pilot cost to WestJet will not change significantly based on first union contract arbitration history in Canada, but there are lots of creative re-mixing of the compensation that can be done that will give both sides some wins and some compromises.
Aerobud, you obviously have no understanding of rates of pay and benefits of companies overseas apart from what you find on the internet. Any of us can find internet 'facts' to support our argument, but as someone who worked 20 years as an expat in Asia, the ME and Europe, I can tell you the numbers you provide differ from on the ground reality.

Coming back to Canada, shocked me. Combining the cost of living with salaries, the current state is appalling. $55k ($42K USD!!!!) starting at Canadians mainline airline is nothing short of criminal.
---------- ADS -----------
  

True North
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 490
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 6:39 pm

Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#238 Post by True North » Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:08 am

eyebrow737 wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:57 am
Aerobud, you obviously have no understanding of rates of pay and benefits of companies overseas apart from what you find on the internet. Any of us can find internet 'facts' to support our argument, but as someone who worked 20 years as an expat in Asia, the ME and Europe, I can tell you the numbers you provide differ from on the ground reality.

Coming back to Canada, shocked me. Combining the cost of living with salaries, the current state is appalling. $55k ($42K USD!!!!) starting at Canadians mainline airline is nothing short of criminal.
Then why did you come back? I'm not being facetious I am generally curious. If things are so much better abroad, why come back and accept working conditions that are "criminal".
---------- ADS -----------
  

True North
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 490
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 6:39 pm

Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#239 Post by True North » Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:24 am

altiplano wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:47 pm
We can disagree just fine on it. I think comparing yourself to others next door doing a similar job are fair comparisons,
No it's not a fair comparison, for the reasons I previously stated, not to mention a population base 10x that of Canada. We will have to agree to disagree.
I get it, you're anti-union, take what you get from management, are happy to settle because they must know best... good luck...

Dangerous to make assumptions. My feelings about unions are not at all pertinent to the discussion. I don't work for WestJet, never have and I've been retired for a while now. I'm just an impartial observer with no stake in the game although I used to be a huge WestJet booster. Not so much now.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
aerobod
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 182
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2014 3:35 pm

Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#240 Post by aerobod » Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:31 am

eyebrow737 wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:57 am
aerobod wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:33 pm
RidersRule wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:22 pm
Aerobud u said...

“bringing the WestJet year 12 captain total compensation to $292K at 80 hours or $301K at the maximum 82.5 hours before overtime -“

That would be with no YOS, so a 12 year Captain could be in year 20 with the company.

I have been at WestJet for 12 years and make no where’s near that. (About 205). Although that might be changing as rumour has it 1:1 YOS has been agreed upon.
No YOS assumption from me, yes could be someone who has been there for more than 12 years, I was assuming a captain for 12 years, I.e. the top of the current captain scale. I’m also assuming that all the scales will change in the CBA, including YOS as likely, I think the total pilot cost to WestJet will not change significantly based on first union contract arbitration history in Canada, but there are lots of creative re-mixing of the compensation that can be done that will give both sides some wins and some compromises.
Aerobud, you obviously have no understanding of rates of pay and benefits of companies overseas apart from what you find on the internet. Any of us can find internet 'facts' to support our argument, but as someone who worked 20 years as an expat in Asia, the ME and Europe, I can tell you the numbers you provide differ from on the ground reality.

Coming back to Canada, shocked me. Combining the cost of living with salaries, the current state is appalling. $55k ($42K USD!!!!) starting at Canadians mainline airline is nothing short of criminal.
Please provide your facts with a good analysis, then we can discuss them. Rhetoric has no value. I’ve also worked around the world in my career and choose Canada as my home as I believe it has the best balance of lifestyle, financial compensation and moral compass
---------- ADS -----------
  

eyebrow737
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 90
Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2016 6:33 am

Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#241 Post by eyebrow737 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:17 am

True North wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:08 am
eyebrow737 wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:57 am
Aerobud, you obviously have no understanding of rates of pay and benefits of companies overseas apart from what you find on the internet. Any of us can find internet 'facts' to support our argument, but as someone who worked 20 years as an expat in Asia, the ME and Europe, I can tell you the numbers you provide differ from on the ground reality.

Coming back to Canada, shocked me. Combining the cost of living with salaries, the current state is appalling. $55k ($42K USD!!!!) starting at Canadians mainline airline is nothing short of criminal.
Then why did you come back? I'm not being facetious I am generally curious. If things are so much better abroad, why come back and accept working conditions that are "criminal".
As with every expat, I have a wife that wanted to come back to be with her family. That's my story. Do you not believe that 42k starting at Canada is detrimental to Canadian aviation.

As to aerobud, I don't believe you on your experience. You say you were in management at WestJet (which would explain your biase). If indeed you are a pilot, how long have you been at WestJet?

Were you flying for majors overseas, Europe? The argument you make is not my experience, more is it the experience of most other expats on know.

I'm not interested in debating the specifics with you, I just call BS when I see it. If you feel that Canadian aviation is middle of the pack then so be it.

If you are now retired it would seem as you don't have a dog in this fight anymore anyway.
---------- ADS -----------
  

cjet
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 73
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 4:26 pm
Location: yyc

Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#242 Post by cjet » Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:52 am

I don’t believe Aerobod is a pilot. That might put some perspective on his arguments.

Cjet
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
aerobod
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 182
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2014 3:35 pm

Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#243 Post by aerobod » Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:16 am

eyebrow737 wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:17 am
True North wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:08 am
eyebrow737 wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:57 am
Aerobud, you obviously have no understanding of rates of pay and benefits of companies overseas apart from what you find on the internet. Any of us can find internet 'facts' to support our argument, but as someone who worked 20 years as an expat in Asia, the ME and Europe, I can tell you the numbers you provide differ from on the ground reality.

Coming back to Canada, shocked me. Combining the cost of living with salaries, the current state is appalling. $55k ($42K USD!!!!) starting at Canadians mainline airline is nothing short of criminal.
Then why did you come back? I'm not being facetious I am generally curious. If things are so much better abroad, why come back and accept working conditions that are "criminal".
As with every expat, I have a wife that wanted to come back to be with her family. That's my story. Do you not believe that 42k starting at Canada is detrimental to Canadian aviation.

As to aerobud, I don't believe you on your experience. You say you were in management at WestJet (which would explain your biase). If indeed you are a pilot, how long have you been at WestJet?

Were you flying for majors overseas, Europe? The argument you make is not my experience, more is it the experience of most other expats on know.

I'm not interested in debating the specifics with you, I just call BS when I see it. If you feel that Canadian aviation is middle of the pack then so be it.

If you are now retired it would seem as you don't have a dog in this fight anymore anyway.
I'm not a pilot (other than flying gliders when I was younger), never have been, never have claimed to be (although I decided not to pursue a career in the RAF as had some of my classmates in Uni, as there didn't seem to be enough intellectual stimulation relative to the aeronautical research job I picked instead). I started my career in the late 70s in aeronautical engineering and have worked in both IT and aircraft related industries in the UK / EU, Canada and US ever since.

One of the IT disciplines I managed at WestJet and have been involved with in my consulting career is data analytics. I respect that you have some point knowledge of specific salaries in specific circumstances, but the data available across all companies and countries tells a different story. One reason to become an ex-pat in another country is to gain a higher salary or career progression, this means not selecting the companies that are at the bottom end of the scale for salary, so there is a built in bias towards employers who are paying the higher wages. I haven't got much time to select individual salary data points for jobs posted currently, but here is an entry FO job with Flybe (54 Q400s in fleet of 78), to compare with FO entry into WestJet Encore or Jazz: https://www.flybe.com/careers/pilots/firstofficer. Starting salary of £29K / USD$38K / CAD$49K.

One thing from a pilot perspective that is problematic is the requirement to start at the bottom of the scale when moving companies when not working contract jobs. There is going to be more variability in both the top and bottom end of salaries across countries, which the data available doesn't illuminate, but the mass averaging across all airlines for all pilot positions for a given country still gives a good indication of compensation to the profession as a whole, leaving Canada mid-pack relative to the G7 countries. Perhaps there needs to be more compression across the salary range, so average pay stays the same at about CAD$125K (for all commercial pilots across all types), but entry level is boosted and top level is reduced, leading to the same lifetime earnings, but with less of a struggle at the beginning?

I don't have a dog in the fight as you say, but accuracy of information and reasoned debate and support of the industry I love (for all players, not just one group) is important. Rhetoric without fact just leads us into chaos devoid of reason, one just has to turn attention to the South to see what that means. I'm glad I'm a Canadian.
---------- ADS -----------
  

flyzam
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 60
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2015 11:15 am

Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#244 Post by flyzam » Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:33 pm

aerobod wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:53 pm
flyzam wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:07 pm
aerobod wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:15 pm

I retired from WestJet earlier this year, so I’m not an employee now, but I have a lot of familiarity with turn management.

I’m not sure what your background is in Operations Research when applied to turn management, but I managed that team at WestJet for a couple of years. Cleaners coming on board do slow down the turn. Bearing in mind adverse weather effects, so best to compare airlines in summer months, but WestJet and Lean applied to turn management has put it in a position of being in the top few airlines in North America for both aircraft utilization and OTP. Turns can be achieved in 25 mins if necessary. Have you looked at multiple years of turn data for multiple airlines? Typically you won’t have meaningful turn data without about 20 data points for every airport served for every day of the year, or about 800,000 records for WestJet, anything less is just anecdotal and pretty meaningless.

I’ve done some work with both Delta at their Hartsfield base and their software supplier for turn management, Delta has the best turn management of the majors, but longer turn times for comparable aircraft than WestJet and quite a bit lower aircraft utilization. Air Canada struggles with consistent turns and has both poor OTP and aircraft utilization at the same time.

Head-to-head with Air Canada, WestJet still has a couple of cents lower CASM on a stage length adjusted basis of approx 1000 miles, so equivalent ticket prices allow WestJet to make a profit when Air Canada is losing money on the same route with comparable equipment. Over the past couple of years Air Canada has driven most of its profit on international routes where WestJet doesn’t currently compete.
Respectfully, I have not worked in any 'turn management' capacity, however I have flown wide and narrow bodies in Asia, Europe and Australia.

A sub 30 minute turn is standard in most low cost airlines with most < 737-700 and < A320 in most airports. Nothing special there, and even though we all helped occasionally to speed things up I have never seen it as a pilots duty before.

One doesn't have to wonder out loud why salaries and benefits here are the worst in the first world when Canada have pilots boasting about writing up retirees for not cleaning out garbage.

For the person that said it has helped reduce costs it certainly hasn't helped reduce fares even compared to large mass countries with small populations like oz.

That must be some tasty coolaid y'all drinking
Base salary in Canada for pilots doesn’t seem to be that far off compared with many first world countries. Here is one major salary comparison web site that is well regarded, feel free to provide your own comparison
https://www.salaryexpert.com/salary/bro ... line-pilot:

All values are for commercial pilots base average salary converted to CAD:

Canada $121,408
Australia $163,459
France $116,557
Germany $141,350
Italy $116,778
Japan $164,927
Spain $72,281
UK $114,026
US $153,871

Fares in Canada are skewed massively by taxes, what the airline charges is not as different as you would think, here is an analysis I did a while back in another post, feel free to provide your own analysis:

“From the perspective of what people pay for a ticket (besides taxes that are not shown on the revenue side for airlines), the yield will give a direct comparison of how much an airline charges for their average stage length, i.e. what the consumer actually pays to the airline on average. It is interesting when doing a comparison between Spirit Airlines and WestJet that these values are quite similar.

Spirit Airlines is generally seen as the most cost and price concious ULCC in North America, For full year 2015 it had a yield of 11.9 US cents per mile on an average stage length of 987 miles(http://ir.spirit.com/releasedetail.cfm?releaseid=953924. Average revenue per passenger US$117

WestJet had a yield of 14.1 US cents (18.72 Canadian) in 2015 on an average stage length of 910 miles https://www.westjet.com/assets/wj-web/d ... 2015AR.pdf. Average revenue per guest/passenger US$128

As Spirit uses a seat pitch of 28" on most of it's seats now, if WestJet increased the -800 seat count from 168 to 189 (Ryanair 30" config) and increased the average stage length to that similar to Spirit, it's yield would also be around 12 cents US with an average revenue per guest of US$114”

I don’t drink Koolaid myself, I find facts are much better for my mind.
Aerobod - just because you pull 'facts' of a website does not mean they are facts. Just because you pull 'facts' of the internet does not mean that you are the guardian of truth and everyone else speaks with hyperbole.

Let me present some 'facts':

Average Airline pilot: All wildly different, and most likely none of the accurate - similar to your example I suspect.

and thats only from a quick first search of google. You can sit there and say your numbers are more factual than my numbers and try to dissect them and I can do they same.

The real fact of pilot salaries is than none of us can know for sure except for the individual, company, government and probably unions who will publish that information in entirely different ways if at all.

You say that Canada average is $121,408 - I can tell you that one company flying widebodies in Canada, no first officer came close to that. I would estimate only 40% of the captains were above that. There is no way that the average in that one company that pays about half of what someone in the US does comes close to what you claim.

It is my gut - base experience is that the average salary in Canada would be around $85,000. That would include the 172 instructors up to a 777 Left Seat.

Only my gut mind you. My gut also tells me having worked as a pilot around the world, with on the ground experience, that including one month vacations to start with, better fatigue rules, higher salaries, and a lower cost of living, leaving more money left over, that there is much room for improvement here.

You wouldn't have shares in Westjet would you? have an vested interest in keeping salaries low? :roll:

ps. if you are going to compare times and yields, maybe Southwest would be a better comparison. They after all are the role model for WJ not Spirit which is more akin to Swoop.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
aerobod
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 182
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2014 3:35 pm

Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#245 Post by aerobod » Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:06 pm

flyzam wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:33 pm
aerobod wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:53 pm
flyzam wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:07 pm


Respectfully, I have not worked in any 'turn management' capacity, however I have flown wide and narrow bodies in Asia, Europe and Australia.

A sub 30 minute turn is standard in most low cost airlines with most < 737-700 and < A320 in most airports. Nothing special there, and even though we all helped occasionally to speed things up I have never seen it as a pilots duty before.

One doesn't have to wonder out loud why salaries and benefits here are the worst in the first world when Canada have pilots boasting about writing up retirees for not cleaning out garbage.

For the person that said it has helped reduce costs it certainly hasn't helped reduce fares even compared to large mass countries with small populations like oz.

That must be some tasty coolaid y'all drinking
Base salary in Canada for pilots doesn’t seem to be that far off compared with many first world countries. Here is one major salary comparison web site that is well regarded, feel free to provide your own comparison
https://www.salaryexpert.com/salary/bro ... line-pilot:

All values are for commercial pilots base average salary converted to CAD:

Canada $121,408
Australia $163,459
France $116,557
Germany $141,350
Italy $116,778
Japan $164,927
Spain $72,281
UK $114,026
US $153,871

Fares in Canada are skewed massively by taxes, what the airline charges is not as different as you would think, here is an analysis I did a while back in another post, feel free to provide your own analysis:

“From the perspective of what people pay for a ticket (besides taxes that are not shown on the revenue side for airlines), the yield will give a direct comparison of how much an airline charges for their average stage length, i.e. what the consumer actually pays to the airline on average. It is interesting when doing a comparison between Spirit Airlines and WestJet that these values are quite similar.

Spirit Airlines is generally seen as the most cost and price concious ULCC in North America, For full year 2015 it had a yield of 11.9 US cents per mile on an average stage length of 987 miles(http://ir.spirit.com/releasedetail.cfm?releaseid=953924. Average revenue per passenger US$117

WestJet had a yield of 14.1 US cents (18.72 Canadian) in 2015 on an average stage length of 910 miles https://www.westjet.com/assets/wj-web/d ... 2015AR.pdf. Average revenue per guest/passenger US$128

As Spirit uses a seat pitch of 28" on most of it's seats now, if WestJet increased the -800 seat count from 168 to 189 (Ryanair 30" config) and increased the average stage length to that similar to Spirit, it's yield would also be around 12 cents US with an average revenue per guest of US$114”

I don’t drink Koolaid myself, I find facts are much better for my mind.
Aerobod - just because you pull 'facts' of a website does not mean they are facts. Just because you pull 'facts' of the internet does not mean that you are the guardian of truth and everyone else speaks with hyperbole.

Let me present some 'facts':

Average Airline pilot: All wildly different, and most likely none of the accurate - similar to your example I suspect.

and thats only from a quick first search of google. You can sit there and say your numbers are more factual than my numbers and try to dissect them and I can do they same.

The real fact of pilot salaries is than none of us can know for sure except for the individual, company, government and probably unions who will publish that information in entirely different ways if at all.

You say that Canada average is $121,408 - I can tell you that the last company I worked flying widebodies in Canada, no first officer came close to that. I would estimate only 40% of the captains were above that. There is no way that the average in that one company that pays about half of what someone in the US does comes close to what you claim.

It is my gut - base experience is that the average salary in Canada would be around $85,000. That would include the 172 instructors up to a 777 Left Seat.

Only my gut mind you. My gut also tells me having worked as a pilot around the world, with on the ground experience, that including one month vacations to start with, better fatigue rules, higher salaries, and a lower cost of living, leaving more money left over, that there is much room for improvement here.

You wouldn't have shares in Westjet would you? have an vested interest in keeping salaries low? :roll:

ps. if you are going to compare times and yields, maybe Southwest would be a better comparison. They after all are the role model for WJ not Spirit which is more akin to Swoop.
I don't profess to be the standard or hold the standard, debate is good and more info can stoke that debate. One assumption I have made is that we are comparing compensation for "Commercial Airline Pilots" which covers airline captains and first officers. A few comments on your data sources:

Government of Canada data is normalised to a rate for a normal working week so 40*52*hourly_rate, so is ~$85K for all types of pilot (Commercial, fixed wing, helicopter, flight school, etc) going by the info they provide.

Payscale show the median for a US pilot of $90,196US, and for the UK of £61,238. It is not clear in how they get their data, but if they don't use surveys to employees and employers and rely just on jobs posted on line, their data is quite incomplete.

Glassdoor also show an additional average bonus of $36,000, to take the total average compensation to $152,829, which would correlate with Air Canada having the highest average.

Living in Canada averages all pilot professions, like the Government data, and posts an average hourly rate assuming 40 hours per week, 52 weeks per year, so should read $76K for Toronto. Most likely they just re-packaging old Government data.

Neuvoo seems to be just Canada, and provide an average for pilot categories such as "Spray Pilot". "Airline Pilot" and "Air Balloon Pilot", likely just averaging salaries of online jobs where the keyword is "Pilot"

Overall I think these sites are explainable in why there are large differences and I do know the ERI data is well regarded as a salary data source, as is Glassdoor due to it's vast web data source, even if it's survey sources are more limited than ERI. Other sources that have good salary data are Mercer and Robert Half. All four of these companies have a vested interest in accurate data worldwide, as corporations pay them to get detailed relocation salary and employment costs to ensure they post competitive salaries for new positions.

Salaries, benefits and profit share for employees at WestJet totalled $981,938,000 for 11,089 FTEs in 2017, giving compensation of $88,500 per full time equivalent employee. The senior management (~100 people at Director and above), accounted for somewhat less than 5% of the total, the pilot group was the biggest proportion of the compensation for any single group and CSAs, FAs, contact centre employees, etc are all included in that average and are paid far less than the average pilot, but together account for more than half of employees. The same analysis at Air Canada shows salaries, wages and benefits of $2,671,000,000 for 28,300 FTEs in 2017, giving compensation of $94,400 per full time equivalent employee, I would be surprised if pilots at Air Canada were paid at the average employee level, basically because of a similar employee distribution as at WestJet. I don't think it is possible for the average pilot compensation at WestJet and Air Canada to be anything less than $100K and by the average corporate wages being driven by a large number of low wage customer service positions, it has to be quite a bit higher than that. With Air Canada / Jazz and WestJet / Encore / Swoop accounting for more than 80% of commercial airline pilots in Canada, I still believe $121K is a realistic average wage.

The Spirit comparison was actually started a couple of years ago to compare revenue per passenger for the same segment length, some one just brought it into the salary comparison in this thread, I only intended that comparison to show that it is the taxes and fees not the airline that are driving much higher ticket prices in Canada.

Oh and yes, I do have WestJet shares and have sold some on a regular basis in the past, but I don't think there are many WestJet employees or retirees who don't. My investing philosophy has been to look for long term success, so any one cost or event is unlikely to prompt me to sell, I'm looking for share price increases due to successful international expansion over the next 10 years.
---------- ADS -----------
  

TFTMB heavy
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 274
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 9:58 am

Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#246 Post by TFTMB heavy » Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:07 pm

Regardless of what info you can dig up on line and debate till the cows come home, ALPA has all the data and they can shower you with comparisons from hourly pay rates to work rules and then some.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Transonic
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 125
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:56 am

Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#247 Post by Transonic » Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:07 pm

aerobod wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:33 pm
RidersRule wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:22 pm
Aerobud u said...

“bringing the WestJet year 12 captain total compensation to $292K at 80 hours or $301K at the maximum 82.5 hours before overtime -“

That would be with no YOS, so a 12 year Captain could be in year 20 with the company.

I have been at WestJet for 12 years and make no where’s near that. (About 205). Although that might be changing as rumour has it 1:1 YOS has been agreed upon.
No YOS assumption from me, yes could be someone who has been there for more than 12 years, I was assuming a captain for 12 years, I.e. the top of the current captain scale. I’m also assuming that all the scales will change in the CBA, including YOS as likely, I think the total pilot cost to WestJet will not change significantly based on first union contract arbitration history in Canada, but there are lots of creative re-mixing of the compensation that can be done that will give both sides some wins and some compromises.
Hi Aerobod,

Thanks for the input.

I'm far from an expert however "First Contract Arbitration" is not a perfect example of the present situation. Part of the agreement between APLA and WestJet leading into mediation/interest based arbitration was that all previous agreed to items are to stand. The big ticket item being 1:1 YOS plus a few small others like hotels, STD/LTD and wording on trip and duty rigs (yet no numbers). Communications from both WestJet FLTOPS and ALPA state the outstanding issues are Scope and Swoop working conditions.

Our lead negotiator stated in early June that WestJet agreed early to 1:1 YOS theorizing that Swoop would cannibalize 737 block hours at the same amount that the 787s would add thus minimizing the effect.

As another posted stated, the arbitrator is not interested in Delta/Spirit wages nor is he interested in Flair/Sunwing wages. He is mainly interested in similar scope operations, namely Air Canada and Rouge.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
aerobod
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 182
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2014 3:35 pm

Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#248 Post by aerobod » Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:55 pm

Transonic wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:07 pm
aerobod wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:33 pm
RidersRule wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:22 pm
Aerobud u said...

“bringing the WestJet year 12 captain total compensation to $292K at 80 hours or $301K at the maximum 82.5 hours before overtime -“

That would be with no YOS, so a 12 year Captain could be in year 20 with the company.

I have been at WestJet for 12 years and make no where’s near that. (About 205). Although that might be changing as rumour has it 1:1 YOS has been agreed upon.
No YOS assumption from me, yes could be someone who has been there for more than 12 years, I was assuming a captain for 12 years, I.e. the top of the current captain scale. I’m also assuming that all the scales will change in the CBA, including YOS as likely, I think the total pilot cost to WestJet will not change significantly based on first union contract arbitration history in Canada, but there are lots of creative re-mixing of the compensation that can be done that will give both sides some wins and some compromises.
Hi Aerobod,

Thanks for the input.

I'm far from an expert however "First Contract Arbitration" is not a perfect example of the present situation. Part of the agreement between APLA and WestJet leading into mediation/interest based arbitration was that all previous agreed to items are to stand. The big ticket item being 1:1 YOS plus a few small others like hotels, STD/LTD and wording on trip and duty rigs (yet no numbers). Communications from both WestJet FLTOPS and ALPA state the outstanding issues are Scope and Swoop working conditions.

Our lead negotiator stated in early June that WestJet agreed early to 1:1 YOS theorizing that Swoop would cannibalize 737 block hours at the same amount that the 787s would add thus minimizing the effect.

As another posted stated, the arbitrator is not interested in Delta/Spirit wages nor is he interested in Flair/Sunwing wages. He is mainly interested in similar scope operations, namely Air Canada and Rouge.
They are all reasonable expectations. I think the final contract will be reasonable to both sides with a number of compromises likely to meet in the middle. From the limited amount I have heard Kaplan seems to be an un-biased arbitrator who won’t favour one party over the other.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Diadem
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 766
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:16 pm
Location: A sigma left of the top of the bell curve

Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#249 Post by Diadem » Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:34 pm

eyebrow737 wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:17 am
As with every expat, I have a wife that wanted to come back to be wih her family. That's my story. Do you not believe that 42k starting at Canada is detrimental to Canadian aviation.
So you're saying that you had larger motivations than money? And that perhaps pilots in Canada are willing to accept lower wages than elsewhere in the world to live in a stable democracy with their families in the places where they grew up? That's why wages are lower here than overseas: there are more Canadian pilots who want to live in Canada than in other countries. You can blame the companies all you want, but if there weren't pilots accepting jobs for 42k then wages would go up. The fact of the matter is that we have to prioritize what we want in life; some people prioritize income and leave Canada, while others are willing to make less money to keep living the lifestyle they have here. The fact that you've re-ordered your priorities and decided that you want to live here again doesn't entitle you to anything. You're making a conscious decision to come back to this country, knowing full-well that you'll make less money. The airlines don't owe you shit, because if you won't take the job for what they're paying they'll find someone else who will. There's no reason for them to give you more money, just because you're a special little snowflake. If you lived in Fort Mac and made $100000 as a welder, but you decided to move to Vancouver because you really liked the climate and the scenery, who could you blame but yourself when you took a 50% pay cut? You could wail and gnash your teeth, but at the end of the day you chose lifestyle over income.
---------- ADS -----------
  

eyebrow737
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 90
Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2016 6:33 am

Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#250 Post by eyebrow737 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:09 am

Diadem wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:34 pm
]
You could wail and gnash your teeth, but at the end of the day you chose lifestyle over income.
Well that is one long confused rant.

I moved from Australia. Stable democracy, fantastic lifestyle, much better pay.

What makes you assume that Canada has a better lifestyle than everyone else? Trudeau been telling you that?
---------- ADS -----------
  

Post Reply

Return to “WestJet”