That being said, flyzam, I would like to address your points, as I believe that your are reading too many items out of context in the discussion we have had:
I'm sorry if it came across that other people were not using facts, but if you go back through any statement I have made, I have not called out anyone for presenting information that wasn't a fact. I have lamented the lack of facts, but have encouraged them to be presented. The reason I posted the Huffington Post article is to illustrate the state of critical thinking in the country below ours, by involving ourselves in the discussion here is actually alleviating the degeneration of "facts into feelings", and I stated "This is a good description of where the US population has descended to in critical thinking skills, hopefully the rest of the world doesn’t follow too far"flyzam wrote: ↑Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:23 amYou then followed up that you were presenting facts and others were presenting as feelings. I have worked in many countries as a pilot earning a salary, and know what it is on the ground. I would not consider, my experience, my feelings at all. Certainly being the subject of a huffington post, aimed at university snowflakes, with no experience. I mean, half of your argument is based upon experience and you're not even a pilot. Moving on....
The averages for WS and AC I produced from the annual reports, mixed with a hypothesis of the mix of employees and each employee group realistic salary was presented as a discussion for people to do their own analysis, as I stated: "Feel free to play around with the proportions of different employee groups and their associated salaries to come to your own conclusions"flyzam wrote: ↑Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:23 amDigging into it further, you then went on to state "My analysis that determined a minimum average of $109K [for westjet]" and "Air Canada will be at least $120K based" two of the highest paid companies in Canada, the average between to two figures you provided is $114.5k a year. Taking into account the rest of the 705 operators Westjet and Air Canada make up about 60% according to airlinepilotcentral.com (which numbers are outdated but probably give an idea of the proportions) pilot number figures.
What I also stated was an opinion "I would say this is the absolute minimum average" due to the fact that I made the assumption that all other groups outside the ones where salary is relatively easy to estimate have salaries that average the same as pilots, which I postulated was not the case due to my knowledge of the company, but I can't prove without using proprietary information, hence the average of $109K < actual WS pilot salary average, it is not the same number.
This is your hypothesis which is based on a core fact you have found from pilot central, much the same way I used the ERI data, both are reputable sources, the fact seems to be sound, but the assumptions that bound this fact may not all be known.flyzam wrote: ↑Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:23 amThis means that 40% of 705 pilots work outside of WJ/AC. Lets assume (I know, but best we can do) that the average of the rest of those companies salaries are 80% of the top two (which I think is very gracious, considering the salaries of the regional.
so 80% of 114.5k is 91k
Your 'fact' is no more or less of a 'fact' than my fact, what we both haven't fully got to the bottom of is what the assumptions and bounds are that make these facts a different fact and how those differences are understood to drive the information together to create a common fact that is defined in the same way.flyzam wrote: ↑Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:23 amProportionally the average for these figures would be $105.1k for 705 in Canada. this is 87.5% of your 'fact' well outside acceptable statistical variation for your data. I would proffer that this would show that your data is not fact Lets face it, even the numbers you offered for two of the highest airlines was below your 'fact'
As I stated "One assumption I have made is that we are comparing compensation for "Commercial Airline Pilots" which covers airline captains and first officers" I also repeated the scope of "commercial airline pilot" twice more. If I used "pilot" and any other term in general and not "commercial airline pilot", I apologise for my lack of pedanticism in this caseflyzam wrote: ↑Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:23 amLets also revisit the argument in hand.Not corporate pilots, not airline pilots....pilots.Base salary in Canada for pilots doesn’t seem to be that far off compared with many first world countries.
So what's my point?
1: you have used different verbiage throughout your narrative presenting them as facts when they are not. A average PILOT does not earn the figures your presented. Know your facts about the industry. It starts with industry definitions. Your mix of verbiage comes across as someone not intimate with the industry. I was talking pilots and you replied pilots.
I would beg to differ in your assertion here. IT is all about data and the understanding of data, how it flows, it's accuracy and how to put it in the hands of users via various applications, so they are able to carry out their jobs. In WestJet there are way over 1000 central corporate databases that are under full IT management, these include finiancial databases with salary information, ACARS databases (with anonymised operating info due to privacy concerns), scheduling databases, sales databases - you name it, for the whole of the airline operation there is a database that houses any information that needs to persist any longer than an in-memory image of a transaction or operation, to the tune of about 1 Petabyte (1,048,576 Gigabytes). When the 787s come on line, each aircraft will be generating ~0.1 GB of information per flight hour that IT will analyse and manage on behalf of the business. The same is true for database information on salaries, IT analyses and presents this to the business. IT Data Specialists have to be data experts, IT as an organisation is the heart of information knowledge across the whole airline.flyzam wrote: ↑Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:23 am2: You are basing your rather distant experience as working in IT in an airline in Canada as to what is happening in the world of pilot salaries (admit it you referenced your job plenty of times and even presented second hand discussions with pilots on business trips) then using statistics from a website that in no way can be accurate without having privy to personal information.
I respect your knowledge of specific salary information and it is the reason this discussion is taking place in this thread, but IT people also have a detailed knowledge of this too, otherwise the business wouldn't have effective applications with meaningful data.
As stated above, the $120K number from ERI is their 'fact' based on what they define as "commercial airline pilot". The average salary information and my attempt to de-construct the salary distribution at WS or AC to test that 'fact', doesn't mean that the 'facts' have to match, as the assumptions are not fully known, but the discussion here on what I presented (which I also encouraged people to provide input on, as you and others did), is helping the understanding more. In many ways this has now become more of an intellectual as opposed to practical discussion, especially as opinions are converging slowly, if at all.
Many statistics are facts, so I have to completely disagree here. I'm not claiming moral high ground or denegrating anyone else's knownledge. My analysis of any facts presented is my own opinion, not fact. My analyis and it's hypothesis are not facts, but I try to find facts to back up discussion, not that others don't too, but facts provide a solid ground to work from. The outcome is generally an opinion. In my case you can see that from my use of "seems", "I think", etc.
A statistic used here as a fact: "average employee cost at WS is $94,400". The input facts from the annual report is that Employee Salary, Benefits and Profit Share was $982m, together with the FTE count of 11,089. Both input facts that lead to a derived fact that is a statistic.
Another area where stastistical facts are derived is in AI and Machine Learning the use of Markov models for vision systems and other areas where fuzzy logic is required. The back calculation of probability used for the model is from statistics.
Lots of facts go into statistics, the only reason a statistic is seen as pliable is that the interpretter or presenter have not fully disclosed all the definitions and assumptions that clarify what the statistic relates to.
Facts are also shaped by knowledge at a particular point in time, so new knowledge may prove a fact to be inaccurate or completely wrong, vis:
- Doctors took it as fact that stress causes ulcers, in fact science now has proved that bacteria is the cause
- Another long accepted fact (fundamental to my aeronautics university education) is that pressure change on a wing happens due to air on the curved upper surface travelling further than air below the flatter lower surface, dictating it must travel faster so that it can arrive at the other side of the wing at the same time as the air flowing underneath. The fact is that it is the curvature itself that causes lift, not the distance the air has to travel, as proven by Prof Babinsky at Cambridge a few years ago.
My reaction to "toe to toe", or "you won't like them apples" is 'meh', it doesn't affect me, doesn't matter to me what a pilot earns, I'm only interested in the data and what it means to how viable an airline is. The market sets the rates one way or another, they are what they are, but fair compensation is always a good thing.
I see that we are unlikely to converge on "What is the average compensation for a commercial pilot in Canada and how it compares with the rest of the world?" or how ever else you want to phrase the question, so be it.