SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

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aerobod
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#276 Post by aerobod » Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:30 pm

So, I want to apologise, especially to RidersRule, for being one of the main instigators of thread drift in this OTS Swoop Pilots thread. It seems that flyzam and I have descended into quite a pedantic discussion. Please disregard by textual diarrhea in this post, if you have anything other than an excess of time to read.

That being said, flyzam, I would like to address your points, as I believe that your are reading too many items out of context in the discussion we have had:
flyzam wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:23 am
You then followed up that you were presenting facts and others were presenting as feelings. I have worked in many countries as a pilot earning a salary, and know what it is on the ground. I would not consider, my experience, my feelings at all. Certainly being the subject of a huffington post, aimed at university snowflakes, with no experience. I mean, half of your argument is based upon experience and you're not even a pilot. Moving on....
I'm sorry if it came across that other people were not using facts, but if you go back through any statement I have made, I have not called out anyone for presenting information that wasn't a fact. I have lamented the lack of facts, but have encouraged them to be presented. The reason I posted the Huffington Post article is to illustrate the state of critical thinking in the country below ours, by involving ourselves in the discussion here is actually alleviating the degeneration of "facts into feelings", and I stated "This is a good description of where the US population has descended to in critical thinking skills, hopefully the rest of the world doesn’t follow too far"
flyzam wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:23 am
Digging into it further, you then went on to state "My analysis that determined a minimum average of $109K [for westjet]" and "Air Canada will be at least $120K based" two of the highest paid companies in Canada, the average between to two figures you provided is $114.5k a year. Taking into account the rest of the 705 operators Westjet and Air Canada make up about 60% according to airlinepilotcentral.com (which numbers are outdated but probably give an idea of the proportions) pilot number figures.
The averages for WS and AC I produced from the annual reports, mixed with a hypothesis of the mix of employees and each employee group realistic salary was presented as a discussion for people to do their own analysis, as I stated: "Feel free to play around with the proportions of different employee groups and their associated salaries to come to your own conclusions"
What I also stated was an opinion "I would say this is the absolute minimum average" due to the fact that I made the assumption that all other groups outside the ones where salary is relatively easy to estimate have salaries that average the same as pilots, which I postulated was not the case due to my knowledge of the company, but I can't prove without using proprietary information, hence the average of $109K < actual WS pilot salary average, it is not the same number.
flyzam wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:23 am
This means that 40% of 705 pilots work outside of WJ/AC. Lets assume (I know, but best we can do) that the average of the rest of those companies salaries are 80% of the top two (which I think is very gracious, considering the salaries of the regional.

so 80% of 114.5k is 91k
This is your hypothesis which is based on a core fact you have found from pilot central, much the same way I used the ERI data, both are reputable sources, the fact seems to be sound, but the assumptions that bound this fact may not all be known.
flyzam wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:23 am
Proportionally the average for these figures would be $105.1k for 705 in Canada. this is 87.5% of your 'fact' well outside acceptable statistical variation for your data. I would proffer that this would show that your data is not fact Lets face it, even the numbers you offered for two of the highest airlines was below your 'fact'
Your 'fact' is no more or less of a 'fact' than my fact, what we both haven't fully got to the bottom of is what the assumptions and bounds are that make these facts a different fact and how those differences are understood to drive the information together to create a common fact that is defined in the same way.
flyzam wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:23 am
Lets also revisit the argument in hand.
Base salary in Canada for pilots doesn’t seem to be that far off compared with many first world countries.
Not corporate pilots, not airline pilots....pilots.
.....
So what's my point?
1: you have used different verbiage throughout your narrative presenting them as facts when they are not. A average PILOT does not earn the figures your presented. Know your facts about the industry. It starts with industry definitions. Your mix of verbiage comes across as someone not intimate with the industry. I was talking pilots and you replied pilots.
As I stated "One assumption I have made is that we are comparing compensation for "Commercial Airline Pilots" which covers airline captains and first officers" I also repeated the scope of "commercial airline pilot" twice more. If I used "pilot" and any other term in general and not "commercial airline pilot", I apologise for my lack of pedanticism in this case
flyzam wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:23 am
2: You are basing your rather distant experience as working in IT in an airline in Canada as to what is happening in the world of pilot salaries (admit it you referenced your job plenty of times and even presented second hand discussions with pilots on business trips) then using statistics from a website that in no way can be accurate without having privy to personal information.
I would beg to differ in your assertion here. IT is all about data and the understanding of data, how it flows, it's accuracy and how to put it in the hands of users via various applications, so they are able to carry out their jobs. In WestJet there are way over 1000 central corporate databases that are under full IT management, these include finiancial databases with salary information, ACARS databases (with anonymised operating info due to privacy concerns), scheduling databases, sales databases - you name it, for the whole of the airline operation there is a database that houses any information that needs to persist any longer than an in-memory image of a transaction or operation, to the tune of about 1 Petabyte (1,048,576 Gigabytes). When the 787s come on line, each aircraft will be generating ~0.1 GB of information per flight hour that IT will analyse and manage on behalf of the business. The same is true for database information on salaries, IT analyses and presents this to the business. IT Data Specialists have to be data experts, IT as an organisation is the heart of information knowledge across the whole airline.

I respect your knowledge of specific salary information and it is the reason this discussion is taking place in this thread, but IT people also have a detailed knowledge of this too, otherwise the business wouldn't have effective applications with meaningful data.
flyzam wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:23 am
3:Even using your 705 benchmark you presented numbers that differed from the 'facts' you presented. Taking into account the other operators it fell well below your 'fact' of $120k.
As stated above, the $120K number from ERI is their 'fact' based on what they define as "commercial airline pilot". The average salary information and my attempt to de-construct the salary distribution at WS or AC to test that 'fact', doesn't mean that the 'facts' have to match, as the assumptions are not fully known, but the discussion here on what I presented (which I also encouraged people to provide input on, as you and others did), is helping the understanding more. In many ways this has now become more of an intellectual as opposed to practical discussion, especially as opinions are converging slowly, if at all.
flyzam wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:23 am
4: You are not using facts. You are using statistics. As mark twain said, facts are stubborn but statistics are pliable. Don't present statistics as facts and then claim you have a moral high ground over someones experience and knowledge doing the job.
Many statistics are facts, so I have to completely disagree here. I'm not claiming moral high ground or denegrating anyone else's knownledge. My analysis of any facts presented is my own opinion, not fact. My analyis and it's hypothesis are not facts, but I try to find facts to back up discussion, not that others don't too, but facts provide a solid ground to work from. The outcome is generally an opinion. In my case you can see that from my use of "seems", "I think", etc.

A statistic used here as a fact: "average employee cost at WS is $94,400". The input facts from the annual report is that Employee Salary, Benefits and Profit Share was $982m, together with the FTE count of 11,089. Both input facts that lead to a derived fact that is a statistic.

Another area where stastistical facts are derived is in AI and Machine Learning the use of Markov models for vision systems and other areas where fuzzy logic is required. The back calculation of probability used for the model is from statistics.

Lots of facts go into statistics, the only reason a statistic is seen as pliable is that the interpretter or presenter have not fully disclosed all the definitions and assumptions that clarify what the statistic relates to.

Facts are also shaped by knowledge at a particular point in time, so new knowledge may prove a fact to be inaccurate or completely wrong, vis:
- Doctors took it as fact that stress causes ulcers, in fact science now has proved that bacteria is the cause
- Another long accepted fact (fundamental to my aeronautics university education) is that pressure change on a wing happens due to air on the curved upper surface travelling further than air below the flatter lower surface, dictating it must travel faster so that it can arrive at the other side of the wing at the same time as the air flowing underneath. The fact is that it is the curvature itself that causes lift, not the distance the air has to travel, as proven by Prof Babinsky at Cambridge a few years ago.
flyzam wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:23 am
Now if we want to go toe to toe, we can compare Air Canada to Australia, two countries with similar land mass to population. Qantas to Air Canada, Westjet to Jetstar. Trust me you won't like them apples....
My reaction to "toe to toe", or "you won't like them apples" is 'meh', it doesn't affect me, doesn't matter to me what a pilot earns, I'm only interested in the data and what it means to how viable an airline is. The market sets the rates one way or another, they are what they are, but fair compensation is always a good thing.

I see that we are unlikely to converge on "What is the average compensation for a commercial pilot in Canada and how it compares with the rest of the world?" or how ever else you want to phrase the question, so be it.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#277 Post by munzil » Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:12 pm

aerobod wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:30 pm
I would beg to differ in your assertion here. IT is all about data and the understanding of data, how it flows, it's accuracy and how to put it in the hands of users via various applications, so they are able to carry out their jobs. In WestJet there are way over 1000 central corporate databases that are under full IT management, these include finiancial databases with salary information, ACARS databases (with anonymised operating info due to privacy concerns), scheduling databases, sales databases - you name it, for the whole of the airline operation there is a database that houses any information that needs to persist any longer than an in-memory image of a transaction or operation, to the tune of about 1 Petabyte (1,048,576 Gigabytes). When the 787s come on line, each aircraft will be generating ~0.1 GB of information per flight hour that IT will analyse and manage on behalf of the business. The same is true for database information on salaries, IT analyses and presents this to the business. IT Data Specialists have to be data experts, IT as an organisation is the heart of information knowledge across the whole airline.
Aerobod - I'm going to jump in here. I worked in a senior IT role for a fortune 50 company in the states for over 20 years mostly within the financial sector. No one person has unguarded access to all the information that you aspire without reason and cause. Specifically salary information will be requested by another part of the organization and it will be IT's role to gather and deliver that information.

If you are saying that you had direct access to salary information (without going through the DB admin etc), even in the role of IT strategy, that information should have no relevance to your role - unless you are passing it on to someone else. I see absolutely no reason anyone in strategy should have access to that information.

I'd be careful with what you are saying. If what you are saying is true, Westjets IT governance and security is sorely lacking.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#278 Post by aerobod » Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:47 pm

munzil wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:12 pm
aerobod wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:30 pm
I would beg to differ in your assertion here. IT is all about data and the understanding of data, how it flows, it's accuracy and how to put it in the hands of users via various applications, so they are able to carry out their jobs. In WestJet there are way over 1000 central corporate databases that are under full IT management, these include finiancial databases with salary information, ACARS databases (with anonymised operating info due to privacy concerns), scheduling databases, sales databases - you name it, for the whole of the airline operation there is a database that houses any information that needs to persist any longer than an in-memory image of a transaction or operation, to the tune of about 1 Petabyte (1,048,576 Gigabytes). When the 787s come on line, each aircraft will be generating ~0.1 GB of information per flight hour that IT will analyse and manage on behalf of the business. The same is true for database information on salaries, IT analyses and presents this to the business. IT Data Specialists have to be data experts, IT as an organisation is the heart of information knowledge across the whole airline.
Aerobod - I'm going to jump in here. I worked in a senior IT role for a fortune 50 company in the states for over 20 years mostly within the financial sector. No one person has unguarded access to all the information that you aspire without reason and cause. Specifically salary information will be requested by another part of the organization and it will be IT's role to gather and deliver that information.

If you are saying that you had direct access to salary information (without going through the DB admin etc), even in the role of IT strategy, that information should have no relevance to your role - unless you are passing it on to someone else. I see absolutely no reason anyone in strategy should have access to that information.

I'd be careful with what you are saying. If what you are saying is true, Westjets IT governance and security is sorely lacking.
What you say is totally correct, the DBAs are the ones with direct access with protocols in place for security and governance in different teams. Privacy is also a major governance issue. That being said, BI reporting after data anonymization does not present a problem, this is where analytics becomes a corporate asset that exposes averages for things such as salary, sales data, aircraft maintenance trends, etc. Only the DBAs have access to the in-scope data records that has privacy protection (for example PIPEDA and GDPR). This is where analytics and the data warehouse / big data / data integration gives the important business decision components with security required to protect corporate intellectual property, but cleansed for any privacy and related issues (such as credit card tokenisation for PCI). I had responsibility for the Architecture (core strategy role managing the Enterprise Architectures who each had Solution Architect teams), Data Integration, DBA and BI teams at WestJet when I retired (also previous roles with responsibility for Cyber Security, IT Governance, Operations Research and Software Quality Assurance). I had no ability to access data records myself (least privileged access / need to know only), yet from a BI perspective was accountable to the business for reporting and analytics, so dealt a lot with the commercially sensitive rolled-up data.

WestJet is strongly governed when it comes to data access, especially as GDPR has been a major focus there over the past couple of years, much more so than peer organisations I have interacted with. In 2016 when one of the teams that reported to me was Cyber Security, I instigated the GDPR initiative with the Legal dept.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#279 Post by Schooner69A » Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:42 pm

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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#280 Post by Diadem » Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:30 pm

flyzam wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:09 am
Diadem - without trying to offend, the reason people are wondering about your age/experience, is because your question appears to come from a place of naivete.

For one, you said every time a pilot comes home they help lower the bar by accepting lower wages. No different than a new CPL entering the workforce in that regard. The difference is that this pilot once left the Canadian marketplace, in effect reducing supply, and perhaps helping to raise the bar. There is also many pilots that do not return to canada,therefore keeping net supply lower, theoretically helping the canadian pilot. There are plenty of Canadians who have settled in europe, Australia, NZ and the US, Asia, South America with families who will never come back.

Secondly, you seem to be stuck on the idea that Canada has a great lifestyle like the BC and the rest of the world is the tar pits of northern Alberta. This can only come from the viewpoint of one who is young and not well traveled and only a singular viewpoint on what is wanted and what isn't. The world is a fascinating place, and every country has its good points and bad points - Canada included. For instance, I know many who have settled in various parts of Africa. Might not appeal to you, but people love it there - they get a cook, maid, gardener for next to nothing, cheap land, get good access to medical paid for by the company and can have a sweet schedule of a few days a week working. Not only that, the cost of living is low and they save a ton of money, as well as being paid more than a canadian. Again might not appeal to you, but not everyone is you.

Europe, Australia, New Zealand, and the US of course have many things that Canada doesn't have, or ready access to. It goes without saying some people would prefer the lifestyle of these places over Canada, similar to the snowbirds (but not just weather)

Asia, is a fascinating place. Great cities, beautiful, amazing opportunities, expediential growth, awesome history and fantastic cultural. Again, I know many people have made that their long term home. So much to offer that we don't get here. Also, might not appeal to you, but many thousands of people prefer it to living in the west.

Just because you see a ton of immigrants here doesn't mean people aren't immigrating all over the world to different places they prefer. Hell, Australia is full of Canadian immigrants who prefer the beach lifestyle of Canada.

Lifestyle means a lot of things to a lot of people. It might be one of more money left over at the end of the month, it might be an international expat lifestyle, it might be an amazing city life (there are better cities than toronto around the world) it might be a rich historical culture, it might be a foreign culture, it might be the beach or island life etc etc. Don't assume that lifestyle is just one thing (ie canadian)

I think it is a great thing when a Canadian wants to broaden their horizons by exploring the world, and enriching their viewpoint. I'm sure you might have encountered that 'skygod' pilot returning from overseas. Trust me there are plenty of skygods who have never left Canada.

Thirdly, there are many reasons to come back to Canada against someones wishes. Many do move back for the lifestyle, and you probably don't hear from them much. The fact that you ask your question in the way of you do, gives the impression that you are young or don't have a family. When you get older there are so many choices that we make that we feel is for the better of the family but we might not like. For instance, a sick kid who is going to receive better healthcare in the west. Maybe a parent with Alzheimers and we want to be there to support them in the end. Or maybe our partner wants to be with her family or have the kids grow up near family (very common) She (or he) might think that the lifestyle is better, doesn't mean the pilot might do. An endless array of reasons that the returning pilot might be resistant to.

No doubt many of the pilots who return to Canada, and complain either thought their version of lifestyle was better where they came from and they felt forced to return, or maybe it is the pilot who came from a similar country to canada (plenty of those) and feel that the vacation, pay, benefits or anything else might be below what they are used to. Some people might go overseas for the money. Many go for the adventure or better lifestyle in their view.

Who knows, maybe they have a point? Nothing is ever black and white.
I've been in this industry well over decade, I have many thousands of hours, and I work for a 705. I have a family, I've lived all over Canada, and I've travelled to Latin America, Europe, Africa, the Middle East, and South-East Asia. None of that has any bearing on economics or market forces. I don't care why people move back to Canada, the fact is that wages are higher for pilots in much of the world than here, and that anyone who leaves an area where there could earn more money to come here shouldn't be surprised or offended that they don't make as much.
Vancouver's not somewhere I want to live, and I think Alberta is great. The reason I brought up Fort Mac and Vancouver is because wages are higher than average in the former, and lower than average in the latter, where the cost of living is also exorbitant. Someone moving from the former to the latter would do so against their best economic interests, and couldn't reasonably expect to be paid the same as in Fort Mac. You could make the same analogy for a doctor moving from Montreal to St Lucia, or the UK to Spain: "How can this clinic in this tiny town not be willing to pay what I made at a world-class hospital in a different country? Don't they know who I am?!" They are consciously making a decision to move somewhere that they know they'll earn less, demanding to be paid the same, and expecting sympathy when they don't get it.
If I had realized economics would be such a difficult subject for so many here, and that no one would be able to focus on the actual subject rather than the minutiae surrounding the core issue, I never would have raised it.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#281 Post by Diadem » Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:56 pm

FL320 wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 2:54 pm
Diadem,

I guess you are in the generation Z group. Could you too answer the question: What is you flying experience?
tell me why the airlines would pay employees more than they have to when they can find workers at their current pay scales.
Are you proud to lower the bar?
I'm far older and more experienced than you seem to think; as I stated above, I've been in the industry for over a decade, and I have many thousands of hours. I've never taken a job that paid less than what I'm worth. What you're too thick to understand is that I'm not advocating for lower wages, I'm explaining why expats coming from countries where they could make more money shouldn't be surprised that they'll make less here. It's a subtle difference, so you might not be able to understand that, but it's like explaining to you why you're a disappointment to your family; just because I'm telling you why they're disappointed doesn't mean that I agree with them.
As for this statement: "To answer your question. The guy who moved to YVR would not complain (if you don’t understand why I cannot help, just wait to grow up)
The one who would complain is the one who had no other choice (the 50% paycut is not the most important but just another pain in the ass in his situation)" This is nonsensical drivel, because we have people here who voluntarily moved and are complaining about it. They weren't forced to, they weren't laid off, they made the choice. In the face of all the evidence otherwise, you made a declarative statement with nothing to back it up, when the whole reason I raised this issue is that we have people doing exactly what you say they won't right here in this thread. Hell, every few months there seems to be an article on how unaffordable BC has become, and they always have interviews with people who chose to leave higher-paying jobs to move to BC for what they perceived to be a better lifestyle. They always have a quote that's something like "I made a lot more in [previous location], and it's really hard to get by on what I make here." I have no sympathy for people who expect the world to be handed to them on a platter.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#282 Post by munzil » Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:11 pm

Diadem wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:30 pm
If I had realized economics would be such a difficult subject for so many here, and that no one would be able to focus on the actual subject rather than the minutiae surrounding the core issue, I never would have raised it.
Hey Diadem, only someone who has been in Aviation 10 years thinks 10 years is long time. You continue to prove total lack of experience in anything.

And btw, I have an honors degree in Economics, probably well before you were born. You come across as a complete ass with no understanding of the subject you are trying to come across as knowledgable on

Now go back and play with your toys and let the adults talk.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#283 Post by Diadem » Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:25 pm

munzil wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:11 pm
Diadem wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:30 pm
If I had realized economics would be such a difficult subject for so many here, and that no one would be able to focus on the actual subject rather than the minutiae surrounding the core issue, I never would have raised it.
Hey Diadem, only someone who has been in Aviation 10 years thinks 10 years is long time. You continue to prove total lack of experience in anything.

And btw, I have an honors degree in Economics, probably well before you were born. You come across as a complete ass with no understanding of the subject you are trying to come across as knowledgable on

Now go back and play with your toys and let the adults talk.
Then please explain where I'm wrong, if you're so knowledgable. Everyone here has simply resorted to insults without addressing any of my points. Ad hominem attacks are the last bastion of the intellectual lightweight.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#284 Post by altiplano » Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:11 pm

Decoupling.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#285 Post by Bede » Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:14 am

munzil wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:11 pm

And btw, I have an honors degree in Economics, probably well before you were born. You come across as a complete ass with no understanding of the subject you are trying to come across as knowledgable on

Now go back and play with your toys and let the adults talk.
I always love when people post their education on internet fora.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#286 Post by sicamore » Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:50 am

Bede wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:14 am
I always love when people post their education on internet fora.
Well good for you. You get a gold star for sharing your feelings. Feelings are so good.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#287 Post by CAL » Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:53 am

..
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#288 Post by mbav8r » Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:14 am

Soooo, anything about the Swoop demotions and pay?
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#289 Post by Diadem » Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:02 am

munzil wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:50 pm
I think several people have tried. I for one could not give a toss what you think.

You're just an annoying little twirp that keeps parroting yourself. And, no I'm not going to engage your or your smart comment in reply
Actually, no one has made a fact-based rebuttal; it's all been arguments from authority and "If you're not at least as old as I am, then you're obviously stupid". Stating that you're a senior hasn't convinced me of anything other than that you have dementia.
Someone voluntarily leaving a high-paying job to move to a country where wages are lower shouldn't expect to be paid the same as they were in their previous position. Airlines would rather hire a 20000-hour pilot than one with 2000 hours, but if the former demands twice as much money as the latter, the airlines will hire the latter, because profit is their primary concern. Prove me wrong.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#290 Post by cjet » Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:21 am

mbav8r wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:14 am
Soooo, anything about the Swoop demotions and pay?


Swoop has until Dec 1st to demote OTS hires. Bid closed last week for upgrades from Westjet. Timeline is tight to get training completed in time but Swoop in not yet flying to USA so crewing issues shouldn’t be a problem.

Cjet
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#291 Post by DropTanks » Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:42 pm

mbav8r wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:14 am
Soooo, anything about the Swoop demotions and pay?
A handful of them are trainers so they’re training their replacements. Should be done by Dec 1 otherwise they’ll need to give Kaplan a very good reason why they couldn’t do it in time.

As for pay it seems that the company has decided to interpret the pay protection as meaning they continue to get all pay as Captains including climbing scales and improved pay in new contract. This move is to keep the OTS guys from all jumping ship overnight. They are needed right now to train their seniors from WJ. If the company wants to pay them more then so be it. Sets a nice precedent! Although I have a funny feeling that soon after the WJ pilots are all trained up and the OTS trainers are no longer needed the company will say something like “turns out Kaplan meant you’re frozen at $103/hr so we have to do that now, oopsie!”
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#292 Post by mbav8r » Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:25 pm

DropTanks wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:42 pm
mbav8r wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:14 am
Soooo, anything about the Swoop demotions and pay?
A handful of them are trainers so they’re training their replacements. Should be done by Dec 1 otherwise they’ll need to give Kaplan a very good reason why they couldn’t do it in time.

As for pay it seems that the company has decided to interpret the pay protection as meaning they continue to get all pay as Captains including climbing scales and improved pay in new contract. This move is to keep the OTS guys from all jumping ship overnight. They are needed right now to train their seniors from WJ. If the company wants to pay them more then so be it. Sets a nice precedent! Although I have a funny feeling that soon after the WJ pilots are all trained up and the OTS trainers are no longer needed the company will say something like “turns out Kaplan meant you’re frozen at $103/hr so we have to do that now, oopsie!”
Thanks, one can hope that’s what happens.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#293 Post by .80@410 » Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:05 pm

The Scabs are too new to understand that the company will tell them whatever is in the companys best interests.
Of course WJ will tell them all is roses and daffodils .

Reality is Kaplan and / or the Dec 31 contract will spell it all out. We can all hope they eat humble pie, but time will tell. Watching them squirm in the right seat is a start. They’ve got 1000 WJ FOs and Encore Captains + FOs ahead of them, some waiting 9 years for a Captains seat. They will never see a LS at WJ before their retirement.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#294 Post by tbaylx » Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:24 am

.80@410 wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:05 pm
The Scabs are too new to understand that the company will tell them whatever is in the companys best interests.
Of course WJ will tell them all is roses and daffodils .

Reality is Kaplan and / or the Dec 31 contract will spell it all out. We can all hope they eat humble pie, but time will tell. Watching them squirm in the right seat is a start. They’ve got 1000 WJ FOs and Encore Captains + FOs ahead of them, some waiting 9 years for a Captains seat. They will never see a LS at WJ before their retirement.
Love + it .

.80
Like I said previously, the OTS hires are the first pilots at WJ to get hired at captain wages from day 1 while they wait 9 years or whatever for an upgrade. The entry level pay at WJ and AC is a barrier to many, the OTS guys have managed to get around that issue. They can afford to be patient for however long it takes. Those that aren't interested in such an arrangement will simply leave and find work elsewhere, there are plenty of operators that are happy to have the level of experience that the OTS pilots bring with them.

Thankfully the pilots coming over from WJ to Swoop are a heck of a lot more professional than the crap we see on Avcanada and are a pleasure to work with.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#295 Post by Hangry » Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:53 am

Glad to see you “managed” to get around the poor starting pay.

Believe me they hate you. But you are insignificant now so they’ll just deal with with you while they have to. It’s called being professional. Professional like not being a scab.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#296 Post by Mach1 » Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:11 am

aerobod wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:54 pm

Telling everyone sensitive business material ahead of time became problematic about 5 years ago, with several leaks from different groups (especially middle management and pilot groups). These leaks had the potential to cause the company to be in breach of trading laws if they had spread too far and caused the stock price to change. From a risk assessment, a lot of the information released to a wide employee group in the past was often insider information, but most employees receiving that info were not controlled as insiders (appropriate and specific NDAs and trading restrictions, amongst other things). Over the past number of years anyone receiving sensitive business info has so on a need to know basis and under a signed NDA for that particular project to avoid the risk situation the company had previously been placed in. Any detailed knowledge on Swoop, 787, new loyalty initiatives and other recent projects were controlled in this way, with the majority of employees learning about the project at the same time a press release went out.

From the perspective of using lease returns directly into Swoop, this was definitely a possibility early on, but the economics of the -700 could not hit the business case requirements and there weren't enough -800 lease returns soon enough to meet the business case timelines. The details had to change a lot to make the project viable, after the initial socialisation of the project with key groups early on.
Yeah... except if that were sensitive business material, they would not have told us that the lease returns were the planes going to Swoop in the first place so you can't hide behind that argument in this case. This lie was not told during the early phases of the development of the plan, it was told to us right up to the day they put pink paint on the newest 800 in the fleet.

"I can't discuss that for reason X, Y or Z..." is a perfectly acceptable answer when asked a question. A much better answer than a lie.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#297 Post by DropTanks » Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:26 am

tbaylx wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:24 am
.80@410 wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:05 pm
The Scabs are too new to understand that the company will tell them whatever is in the companys best interests.
Of course WJ will tell them all is roses and daffodils .

Reality is Kaplan and / or the Dec 31 contract will spell it all out. We can all hope they eat humble pie, but time will tell. Watching them squirm in the right seat is a start. They’ve got 1000 WJ FOs and Encore Captains + FOs ahead of them, some waiting 9 years for a Captains seat. They will never see a LS at WJ before their retirement.
Love + it .

.80
Like I said previously, the OTS hires are the first pilots at WJ to get hired at captain wages from day 1 while they wait 9 years or whatever for an upgrade. The entry level pay at WJ and AC is a barrier to many, the OTS guys have managed to get around that issue. They can afford to be patient for however long it takes. Those that aren't interested in such an arrangement will simply leave and find work elsewhere, there are plenty of operators that are happy to have the level of experience that the OTS pilots bring with them.

Thankfully the pilots coming over from WJ to Swoop are a heck of a lot more professional than the crap we see on Avcanada and are a pleasure to work with.
Yeah 9yr upgrade for WestJetters is like a 15-20yr wait time for OTS Swoopsters with 1000 people above them. Possibly never. Don’t kid yourself dude. There’s absolutely no way management is going to pay 20 or so F/O’s full blown Captain pay for their entire tenure. As I’m sure you’ve heard before from the higher ups it just “doesn’t fit the Swoop business model”. Everything, absolutely everything they’ve done has been to make Swoop the cheapest airline they could and right now the narrative of paying you guys full Captain wage works for them. They can’t have you all quitting overnight. I’ll guarantee that once the dust settles the pay protection will be clarified at $103/hr. Still a massive coup d’etat for you guys and congrats on “managing” to avoid the low starting pay. You’re an inspiration to us all.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#298 Post by tbaylx » Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:34 am

Hangry wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:53 am
Glad to see you “managed” to get around the poor starting pay.

Believe me they hate you. But you are insignificant now so they’ll just deal with with you while they have to. It’s called being professional. Professional like not being a scab.
I feel sorry for you and the rest of those that go to work hating others. I’m pretty comfortable with the decisions I’ve made and my level of professionalism..especially when compared to a few posters on avcanada.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#299 Post by True North » Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:00 am

tbaylx wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:34 am
Hangry wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:53 am
Glad to see you “managed” to get around the poor starting pay.

Believe me they hate you. But you are insignificant now so they’ll just deal with with you while they have to. It’s called being professional. Professional like not being a scab.
I feel sorry for you and the rest of those that go to work hating others. I’m pretty comfortable with the decisions I’ve made and my level of professionalism..especially when compared to a few posters on avcanada.
Although I completely disagree with your decision to take advantage of a labour dispute to further your own career, the rest of your statement is bang on. It seems a lot of WestJet pilots forget this is a public forum. The overall impression of the level of professionalism at WestJet has taken a serious hit lately. The general public view airline pilots as highly paid individuals who get to do an exciting job that they love. Right or wrong that is the general perception. There is very little, if any sympathy for pilots moaning about their lot in life and anyone reading this forum will end up with a whole new opinion of pilots. Some of you guys seriously need to grow up and step away from the computer. You are doing yourselves, your company and your profession a major disservice.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#300 Post by RidersRule » Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:04 pm

DropTanks wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:26 am
tbaylx wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:24 am
.80@410 wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:05 pm
The Scabs are too new to understand that the company will tell them whatever is in the companys best interests.
Of course WJ will tell them all is roses and daffodils .

Reality is Kaplan and / or the Dec 31 contract will spell it all out. We can all hope they eat humble pie, but time will tell. Watching them squirm in the right seat is a start. They’ve got 1000 WJ FOs and Encore Captains + FOs ahead of them, some waiting 9 years for a Captains seat. They will never see a LS at WJ before their retirement.
Love + it .

.80
Like I said previously, the OTS hires are the first pilots at WJ to get hired at captain wages from day 1 while they wait 9 years or whatever for an upgrade. The entry level pay at WJ and AC is a barrier to many, the OTS guys have managed to get around that issue. They can afford to be patient for however long it takes. Those that aren't interested in such an arrangement will simply leave and find work elsewhere, there are plenty of operators that are happy to have the level of experience that the OTS pilots bring with them.

Thankfully the pilots coming over from WJ to Swoop are a heck of a lot more professional than the crap we see on Avcanada and are a pleasure to work with.
Yeah 9yr upgrade for WestJetters is like a 15-20yr wait time for OTS Swoopsters with 1000 people above them. Possibly never. Don’t kid yourself dude. There’s absolutely no way management is going to pay 20 or so F/O’s full blown Captain pay for their entire tenure. As I’m sure you’ve heard before from the higher ups it just “doesn’t fit the Swoop business model”. Everything, absolutely everything they’ve done has been to make Swoop the cheapest airline they could and right now the narrative of paying you guys full Captain wage works for them. They can’t have you all quitting overnight. I’ll guarantee that once the dust settles the pay protection will be clarified at $103/hr. Still a massive coup d’etat for you guys and congrats on “managing” to avoid the low starting pay. You’re an inspiration to us all.
This right here. I don’t care about the OTS guys anymore. I’m happy with where they are. If they continue to get paid what they originally signed on for, doesn’t matter to me. This was about being out of position on a list. This was about flying with eight year FO’s who never even got a shot at that seat.

But back to the pay. From what I hear, they make the Swoop pilots pay for a can of pop. And you think they are going to keep paying FO’s as captains. Just my opinion, but yeah right.

Hosnestly I wish u luck with that. Like I said it doesn’t matter anymore. The main wrong was corrected.
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