SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

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Hangry
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#51 Post by Hangry » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:31 am

Ouch :lol:
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MrTurbine
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#52 Post by MrTurbine » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:38 am

eyebrow737 wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:52 pm
Sharklasers wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 1:29 pm
I think most of us can agree that today is a good day for Canadian Aviation and a victory for organized labour.
Hopefully most of the 26 will go back to the rocks that they crawled out from under and reflect on the damage they nearly inflicted on the rest of the industry.

Congrats ALPA. Keep up the good work.
Says the pilots that pick up trash. You, my misinformed friend are doing the real damage. You and your organized labor communist gang that rewards time served instead of talent. Any removal of meritocracy from our lives only rewards laziness.

Have you ever wondered why Canadian aviation pays the worst and has the worst benefits? It's because of idiots like you who keep on pushing a broken system.

If you really had any care for the industry you would stop doing the same thing over and over again and expecting it to change.

The definition of WestJet truely is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result.

You dimwits are all the problem. But what could you expect from discount rate airline pilots that wear rubber gloves to work
Jeezus, what crap hole did you crawl out from? Holy Moses please do all of us a favour and go fly overseas. We don’t need your retardedness in Canadian aviation.

There’s an airline in the states called allegiant, you would thrive there.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#53 Post by MrTurbine » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:46 am

WeedPro2000 wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:10 pm
YYZGDP wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:51 pm
"Affected SWOOP pilots shall be awarded a position at Swoop at the Hamilton base, commensurate with their position on the WestJet Pilot Seniority List. Such
individuals shall be pay protected until such time as they can bid into a position equal to the one from which they have been displaced."

No, looks like they cannot be sent right seat dash.
Further, the existing Swoop OTS pilots are ahead of any Encore pilots who eventually will flow to WJ mainline. That's ALPA policy. Any other outcome is a guaranteed Breach of Contract action by existing WJ OTS pilots damaged by ALPA's breach.

But wait until December for proof. Then you can call me full of shite. Or praise me as prescient.
You are and have always been full of shite.
Further the existing swoop pilot will NOT be ahead of encore pilots who started flying before them.
Alpa’s breach , bro, you are so far gone I’m worried that mentally you have an issue. Go get checked.

We are really trying to make this place so much better, and to take out the negativity that took place for the last few years and to get a good CBA. But you my friend are not helping in any way.
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cloak
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#54 Post by cloak » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:59 am

Not much to celebrate, WestJet pilots could have had these jobs two years ago likely for higher pay. Discourses like this do not reflect well on WestJet, its pilots and its culture which means in reality for aspiring pilots the viable choices in Canada are Air Canada if one can survive the entry pay, or Transat and Sunwing, with Flair and Porter as good transitions; otherwise go overseas.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#55 Post by ogc » Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:12 am

So I'm not fully up to date on this... is Swoop still hiring OTS for the FO side? Will this be affecting them?
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#56 Post by Hangry » Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:31 am

cloak wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:59 am
Not much to celebrate, WestJet pilots could have had these jobs two years ago likely for higher pay. Discourses like this do not reflect well on WestJet, its pilots and its culture which means in reality for aspiring pilots the viable choices in Canada are Air Canada if one can survive the entry pay, or Transat and Sunwing, with Flair and Porter as good transitions; otherwise go overseas.
Yes it’s all the pilots fault. :roll:
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#57 Post by lostaviator » Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:35 am

cloak wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:59 am
Not much to celebrate, WestJet pilots could have had these jobs two years ago likely for higher pay. Discourses like this do not reflect well on WestJet, its pilots and its culture which means in reality for aspiring pilots the viable choices in Canada are Air Canada if one can survive the entry pay, or Transat and Sunwing, with Flair and Porter as good transitions; otherwise go overseas.
What size of rock do you live under? Two years ago, the JPA would have had a bbq with the WJ executive and given the company what they wanted and WJ would be losing planes faster than pilots.

No sense wasting air/energy anymore on this. 9% isn't worth the effort.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#58 Post by #37 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:51 am

cloak wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:59 am
Not much to celebrate, WestJet pilots could have had these jobs two years ago likely for higher pay. Discourses like this do not reflect well on WestJet, its pilots and its culture which means in reality for aspiring pilots the viable choices in Canada are Air Canada if one can survive the entry pay, or Transat and Sunwing, with Flair and Porter as good transitions; otherwise go overseas.
Wasn't SWOOP just someone's wet dream two years ago???
WestJet pilots DID have these jobs two years ago, flying the same aircraft on the same routes at much higher rates of pay...
But let's stay confused, must be ALPAs fault.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#59 Post by eyebrow737 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:42 am

Sharklasers wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:14 am
eyebrow737 wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:52 pm
Sharklasers wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 1:29 pm
I think most of us can agree that today is a good day for Canadian Aviation and a victory for organized labour.
Hopefully most of the 26 will go back to the rocks that they crawled out from under and reflect on the damage they nearly inflicted on the rest of the industry.

Congrats ALPA. Keep up the good work.
Says the pilots that pick up trash. You, my misinformed friend are doing the real damage. You and your organized labor communist gang that rewards time served instead of talent. Any removal of meritocracy from our lives only rewards laziness.

Have you ever wondered why Canadian aviation pays the worst and has the worst benefits? It's because of idiots like you who keep on pushing a broken system.

If you really had any care for the industry you would stop doing the same thing over and over again and expecting it to change.

The definition of WestJet truely is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result.

You dimwits are all the problem. But what could you expect from discount rate airline pilots that wear rubber gloves to work
I know why your so cranky, it's because you have to work all night flying boxes for another company that took the axe to Canadian 705 wages which makes it funnier to see you rail against the westjet pilots for trying to preserve theirs. I realize that by swoop not hiring direct entry captains from the dregs of the industry willing to work for a steep discount probably ends an opportunity for you to maybe fly during daylight hours again. Don't worry, something else will come along soon, both sunwing and skyregional are hiring DEC.
I don't work for Westjet, you wish you had my job.
Yeah you got it in one, if you go back about 5 years. As for the dregs of industry, I would certainly like you to go say that to the guys over at Cargojet, many of whom have flown for the top airlines around the world in environments far more professional than anything you will find in Canada working on equipment just a little newer than a 10 year old NG. But keep telling your self how good you are. As to wishing, if I had your job. If it is in Canada, I am afraid your ego outweighs your awareness. Good try though
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#60 Post by eyebrow737 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:44 am

cloak wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:59 am
Not much to celebrate, WestJet pilots could have had these jobs two years ago likely for higher pay. Discourses like this do not reflect well on WestJet, its pilots and its culture which means in reality for aspiring pilots the viable choices in Canada are Air Canada if one can survive the entry pay, or Transat and Sunwing, with Flair and Porter as good transitions; otherwise go overseas.
Isnèt this the truth. Yet they are all standing around clapping themselves on the back congratulating themselves for how they all single handily saved Canadian aviation.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#61 Post by eyebrow737 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:45 am

MrTurbine wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:38 am
eyebrow737 wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:52 pm
Sharklasers wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 1:29 pm
I think most of us can agree that today is a good day for Canadian Aviation and a victory for organized labour.
Hopefully most of the 26 will go back to the rocks that they crawled out from under and reflect on the damage they nearly inflicted on the rest of the industry.

Congrats ALPA. Keep up the good work.
Says the pilots that pick up trash. You, my misinformed friend are doing the real damage. You and your organized labor communist gang that rewards time served instead of talent. Any removal of meritocracy from our lives only rewards laziness.

Have you ever wondered why Canadian aviation pays the worst and has the worst benefits? It's because of idiots like you who keep on pushing a broken system.

If you really had any care for the industry you would stop doing the same thing over and over again and expecting it to change.

The definition of WestJet truely is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result.

You dimwits are all the problem. But what could you expect from discount rate airline pilots that wear rubber gloves to work
Jeezus, what crap hole did you crawl out from? Holy Moses please do all of us a favour and go fly overseas. We don’t need your retardedness in Canadian aviation.

There’s an airline in the states called allegiant, you would thrive there.
I might as well come work for westjet - are they not comparable. What knowledge would you have anyway of anything outside Encore... probably your first job is it not
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#62 Post by Mostly Harmless » Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:14 pm

Depth perception is the only difference between brown nosing and ass kissing.

Regardless of the contract and it's arbitrated outcome, the scene at the Clivery Tower will probably look a lot like this: Image
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#63 Post by WeedPro2000 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:15 pm

*If at the end of the following post, you find that you learned something about the issues involved with respect to the loss of the WPDL, aka the "One List", please consider making a donation to my PayPal account (Email ID: ... ) in recognition of the time I spent researching and composing this post and others like it.



Daddy issues? Hmm. Ok. Although it really is none of my business what you think of me, I will say that my worst motive in preventing the election of the ALPA horde was my personal loss of $100,000 per year in income as well as the loss of schedule flexibility (typically I drop down to 2-5 days of work per month before building back up) in addition to the loss of unlimited sick days (admittedly I haven't averaged more than 5 or 6 a year, I think), the loss of the zero cost commute, and a few other things that won't be confirmed until 90 days from now. My best motive was to prevent the culture collapse when the Encore pilots realize they have lost their position on the One List, with respect to OTS pilots, as regards their upgrade and base bidding. It has nothing to do with any psychological condition, though it's interesting that that is your best argument. I suspect you're a mouth breather.

Regarding the ALPA seniority list, here's a refresher for you, and the rest of the Ostrich Parasitic Disease sufferers on why there is, at most, 90 days left in the life of the One List. Don't shoot the messenger, I've simply tried to warn you (and the rest of the Intellectually Stunted Crowd) for more than two years what the election of ALPA meant to the fortunes of Encore/OTS pilots. It is not going to be pretty. For Encore pilots. For OTS pilots it is a windfall.

MEC Vice Chair TP says he was one of the 4 people who led the ALPA OC, which means he approved the OC update message of 18 months ago that stated:
"Once certified, WestJet pilots will control their seniority list. It will be up to the WestJet pilots to determine how Encore pilots are incorporated into the WestJet seniority list. ALPA will respect what the WestJet pilots decide on this matter. If the WestJet pilots choose to honor the date of hire of Encore pilots when they flow to WestJet, there will be no change in the operation of the current flow through."
I am told that the survey of WJ pilots conducted by ALPA after certification showed overwhelming support for the One List. But no one really knows, since that information has not been released. Assuming it to be true, then ALPA would do what it promised, keep the pilots on the WestJet PIlot Seniority List in the same order as on the One list. Although the One List did not provide for YOS upon accepting employment (after resigning at Encore) at mainline, it did give recognition of Encore DOH for upgrade and base bidding. So, has ALPA delivered that?

Well, it would seem easy, simply place Encore pilots on the WJ Pilot Seniority List according to their Encore DOH. Case closed. They then benefit from all of the contractual rights that their seniority permitted them. If that were so, however, why would MEC Vice Chair TP (see attachment) state:
"Our first MEC resolution was to recognize Encore pilots as WestJet pilots – essentially to remove any professional barriers between our pilot groups that exist because of corporate branding or aircraft type. Since then I’ve been working with their MEC officers to cement the one seniority list concept and the unification of our pilot groups starting with eventually creating a single MEC structure. This unity work very much captures my union philosophy. Stronger together."
Working with the MEC officers? No one would need to work with the Encore MEC officers if the the Encore flow pilots just kept their Encore DOH when they flowed. Something doesn't make sense. Any negotiation regarding Encore flow rights and seniority would be a matter between the WJ ALPA MEC and WJ management.

Regarding this specific issue, I flew with a Encore flow pilot some months ago who told me that he directly asked the former MEC Executive member CT about YOS for Encore flow pilots, and he was told by her that that was an issue for the Encore MEC to negotiate with Encore/WJ management. Strange, no?

I've already posted that current YVR LEC member SW (and I assume one of the three OC leaders TP refers to in his ALPA Board candidacy message attached), in response to a question in another online venue regarding the One List stated:
"Yes it was. I asked. It is solely up to us to determine our seniority list was the answer. I mentioned that "people" (not really more than 1 actually...) are saying that the ALPA policies (Constitution & Bylaws etc) don't allow for our "one list" or for future flow with DoH. He* was clear that this is not true and again, it is up to us to decide.
*ALPA President Tim Canoll, on the occasion of his December 2016 visit to Calgary.

So, the promises have been made. From ALPA President Tim Canoll, through to ALPA OC leaders RM (current MEC Chair), TP (current MEC Vice Chair), SW (current YVR LEC Sec-Treasurer), and down to the rest of the ALPA OC members who peddled this horseshit, they've all misrepresented what they could deliver: a seniority list that preserves the positions (and upgrade and base bidding entitlements) of the Encore pilots.

Longtime readers of my column here on Avcanada will remember of course that in Canada (NOT in the USA) the constitution of a union represents a legally binding contract (of adhesion, whatever the hell that means) between the union and its members. For proof of this, see this case here where there members of the Canadian Airport Workers Union ("CAWU") sued their union for breach of the union's constitution. Additionally, and much closer to the issue at bar, the trial judge in the original Berry v Pulley case (a result of the unsuccessful common employer action Air Canada/Connector airlines) did find that:
"The trial judge acknowledged that the CALPA Constitution and Merger Policy constituted a contract between each union member and CALPA."
So what does the ALPA constitution have to say about seniority list construction? Well nothing, directly. However, the constitution , which we now know (see above) is legally binding on ALPA, does state that the President of ALPA, Tim Canoll, must swear the following oath:
"I hereby pledge on my honor to accept the responsibilities of this office and perform the attendant duties to the best of my ability; to uphold faithfully the Constitution and By-Laws of
the Air Line Pilots Association; to comply with and advance the policies of the Association;...
Further, under Section 12 of the ALPA Constitution & Bylaws, the MEC Chairman (Capt RM) shall be:
The Association representative on his airline for the purpose of furthering and implementing
the objectives and policies of the Board of Directors and Executive Board
.
The long and short is that both ALPA President Tim Canoll, whose signature must be on any CBA between WJ and ALPA, and WJ MEC Chairman RM, are both compelled by the constitution to follow the policies of the Association, and in specific, the policies of the Executive Board.

The Executive Board is composed of the Chairman of the MEC of each airline in ALPA. It meets every two years and issues policy directives, each of which cannot be in conflict with the Constitution. They can interpret the Constitution, but cannot change the Constitution.

Since 1956, when Executive Board first issued it, the policy of ALPA regarding seniority list construction (absent from and apart from a merger) has been:
STANDARDIZATION OF SENIORITY SECTIONS
SOURCE - BOARD 1956

ALPA is instructed to use every means at its command* for prospective application two Sections of all agreements:

a. Specifically, the part of the Seniority General Section which establishes hiring procedures and establishment of position on the seniority list shall be standardized so that in the event of mergers, acquisitions, sales, etc, a common foundation will exist, thereby eliminating contriversy on this subject.

.
.
.
SENIORITY - GENERAL
SOURCE - Board 1956, AMENDED - Executive Board December 1971; Administrative January 1998 (Canada Reference Added); Executive Board September 1998

a. Seniority of a pilot shall be based upon the length of service as a pilot with the Company.

b. Seniority shall begin to accrue from the date upon which a pilot employed by the Company as a pilot begins operational training required to perform such duties in airline operations and shall continue to accrue during such period of employment except as otherwise provided in his agreement. The date upon which a pilot first appears upon the Company's payroll as a pilot and begins initial operational training required to perform such duties in airline operations shall establish such pilot's position on the System Seniority List.

.
.
.
d. Seniority shall govern all pilots in case of promotion and demotion, their retention in case of reduction in force, their assignment or reassignment due to expansion or reduction in schedules, their reemployment after release due to reduction in force, and their choice of vacancies...
Ok let's take a breather and assess what the preceding paragraphs state. They clearly indicate that the ALPA President Tim Canoll and the WJ MEC Chairman must implement a seniority list whose composition MUST follow the proscribed method as issued, and reaffirmed by the Executive Board. To do anything else, would invite a Breach of Contract action in court by the class of OTS pilots damaged but for the breach by ALPA of its own constitution. As can be seen in the Executive Board's reasoning, they standardize all seniority sections of ALPA CBA's in order to avoid controversy in the event of mergers (cough cough USAir cough America West).

Further, the seniority list MUST be used for implementing filling of vacancies etc. There is no favoring one group or other. Seniority rules!

Do I need to further refine Date of Hire concept for the disbelieving souls out there still mindlessly following a Pied Piper to the land of Happy Flow Pilot? Well, I do note that Encore pilots MUST resign from Encore prior to flowing to WestJet. That's right. They resign their job. At some point in the ensuing days after that resignation, their name shows up on an email that I more or less routinely receive from WJ management. The title of the email?

NEW HIRE PIZZA PARTY

In the body of that email is an invitation to a gathering with 8-12 pilots, some of whom are OTS and the rest are from Encore, who have just commenced training on the 737. They are, you guessed it, "new hires". Their date of hire is usually a week to ten days prior to the issuance of the pizza party email.

If you'd like some background information on what happens in a merger of two ALPA represented pilot groups and one pilot group tries to claim seniority credit for time before their date of hire with the "Company", look no further than the merger of the two following companies, United and Continental. For comparison, Continental = WestJet and Continental Express (COEX) = Encore. Spoiler alert: The COEX pilots who flowed to Continental did not get credit for time spent at COEX, i.e. prior to their "Date of Hire".
Under these morphing corporate structures, the two companies operated under different sets of FAA regulations and separate operating certificates. Their pilots had separate employment policies (during the years when there was no pilot union) or CBAs with different terms and conditions of employment – “regional terms and conditions of employment” for COEX pilots and “mainline terms and conditions of employment” for CAL pilots. The separate CBAs for the CAL and COEX pilots defined “the Company” as either CAL or COEX respectively. The pilots flew different equipment, stayed at different layover hotels, dealt with different managements and were paid through separate payrolls by separate companies with different IRS Employer Identification Numbers.
Whatever the corporate ownership structure may have been at various times, Continental and COEX never were a single “Company” as we understand the meaning of that term in ALPA Merger Policy.

The facts of the relationship between CAL and COEX establish that they were not a single “Company” during the period in which the PEP, the EOFPA, and the Supplemental EOFPA were in place. Indeed, the language of the policies themselves demonstrates that CAL and COEX were never a single “Company.” They carefully and consistently emphasize the distinctions between CAL and its Express operations.

Even taking these arrangements on their terms, they did not provide that COEX pilots would keep for all purposes their COEX date of hire upon transitioning to CAL. Nothing in those arrangements provides that the date of hire at a COEX carrier should be counted as the CAL date of hire or that time on furlough from CAL mainline should not count because some of those pilots flew at COEX during a mainline RIF period. Rather, the various arrangements simply set up a preferential hiring program using preexisting regional carrier dates of hire.

Finally, the CAL Committee position is independently problematic because, based on the terms of the PEP Chapter 9, over 60% of the pilots in question “flowed up” from COEX to CAL under a policy that was unilaterally maintained and controlled by management during a period when there was no pilots' union on the property. Neither contrary management personnel practices nor negotiated policies can prevail over the Merger Policy's definitions.
You may ask, what do problems in a merger of two ALPA groups from eight years ago have to do with a WestJet CBA? Well, clearly ALPA knows the problems that occur in mergers, and will do their utmost to avoid such problems later on. Ergo, they will do what they contractually and constitutionally must: they will issue a seniority list ordered by date of hire at WestJet proper, with no credit for time spent at Encore.

To do anything else, would invite a (in my opinion) successful Breach of Contract action by the OTS pilots materially damaged by ALPA's breach. How much would that cost ALPA? (See 17 separate court actions in Berry v Pulley for an idea). That said, there is zero chance of a non-DOH (WJ) seniority list.

When you read the terms of that CBA, in less than 90 days, please don't take out your anger on me. The following attachment has the names and contact info of the people you should be angry with. Rightfully angry with. Most of the names here merely negligently misrepresented the post CBA seniority list. I suspect that a few fraudulently misrepresented the truth. Tragically, the members of an OC cannot be held legally responsible for their misstatements. It truly is a case of caveat emptor, in which the only people to blame are the people who voted YES to ALPA without bothering to seriously investigate the issues involved, and instead, in some cases, merely tried to discredit me personally. Ceci dit, moi, je suis un grand garcon.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#64 Post by Cpdlc » Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:03 pm

Did you seriously just post the names and private phone numbers of the entire ALPA organization committee? This has got to violate WestJet’s business code of conduct.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#65 Post by musicalpilotchairs » Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:29 pm

Hey John , I’m a member of the ‘didn’t need it, didn’t want it, but sure as hell going to pay for it club’.
I figure the only positive outcome for a large percentage of us is the possibility of seniority bidding for all things scheduling.( no doubt Herndon is growing impatient for our dues and want their pound of flesh).
How do you interpret alpa s constitution in this regard and is there any recourse for us to push this?
I’m sure you remember as I do, that this was one of arguments from the pro alpa group that ‘ the pilots choose how we get scheduled’ complete bs I think. The poor f/a ‘s will also soon discover that 30,000 flica transactions per month isn’t free either.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#66 Post by FL410AV8R » Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:56 pm

I am pretty sure the only signature that matters on this first CA will be Mr Kaplan's.

Captain Cannoll, the MEC and WestJet will sign as acceptance of the arbitrated conditions, nothing more.

There is no recourse available to an individual pilot or group of pilots to the terms of a binding arbitrated agreement.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#67 Post by Rezy » Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:14 pm

Weedpro what you basically do not understand is the different legal entities. There are 4.
WJ ALPA, WJ Management,
Encore ALPA, and Encore Management
The objective of all 4 entities is one list. Just because you don’t understand why one group has to deal with another group doesn’t mean you can jump to conclusions.
WestJet Pilots (aka WJ ALPA) will always have control over their seniority list, for the time being they want Encore pilots (aka Encore ALPA) on that list although this could change but for now both parties confirm they want a one list. The unions control the seniority list. Not management.

YOS is controlled through WJ Management and Encore Management as it is pay related (not a seniority list managed by a union)
Encore ALPA has no right to bargain with WJ management as they are two separate companies. Therefore, Encore ALPA must bargain only with Encore Management, who could accept the CBA for YOS (although I highly doubt this will be awarded).
Is there a risk of losing the one list? Yes - but it is the exact same amount of risk as under the WJPA.
I don’t have the time to respond to all your conspiracy theories but a basic understanding of who is who and which group can bargain with whom debunks all of your unfounded accusations.

Edited to add: WJ ALPA passed a resolution recognizing Encore pilots as WestJet Pilots so therefor none of the ALPA constitutions will interfere with the one list.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#68 Post by dialdriver » Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:19 pm

I could be mistaken, but it seems to me that Canadian Regional pilots could flow through to Canadian (an ALPA property) with seniority.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#69 Post by Go Guns » Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:40 pm

I figure the only positive outcome for a small percentage of us is the possibility of seniority bidding for all things scheduling.
Ftfy
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#70 Post by MrTurbine » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:19 pm

eyebrow737 wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:45 am
MrTurbine wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:38 am
eyebrow737 wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:52 pm


Says the pilots that pick up trash. You, my misinformed friend are doing the real damage. You and your organized labor communist gang that rewards time served instead of talent. Any removal of meritocracy from our lives only rewards laziness.

Have you ever wondered why Canadian aviation pays the worst and has the worst benefits? It's because of idiots like you who keep on pushing a broken system.

If you really had any care for the industry you would stop doing the same thing over and over again and expecting it to change.

The definition of WestJet truely is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result.

You dimwits are all the problem. But what could you expect from discount rate airline pilots that wear rubber gloves to work
Jeezus, what crap hole did you crawl out from? Holy Moses please do all of us a favour and go fly overseas. We don’t need your retardedness in Canadian aviation.

There’s an airline in the states called allegiant, you would thrive there.
I might as well come work for westjet - are they not comparable. What knowledge would you have anyway of anything outside Encore... probably your first job is it not
Oh god. Be careful bud, a lot of us here have been in aviation longer than you’ve been alive. Get your act together and stop patronizing good things happening in Canadian aviation.
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MrTurbine
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#71 Post by MrTurbine » Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:20 pm

WeedPro2000 wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:15 pm
*If at the end of the following post, you find that you learned something about the issues involved with respect to the loss of the WPDL, aka the "One List", please consider making a donation to my PayPal account (Email ID: ... ) in recognition of the time I spent researching and composing this post and others like it.



Daddy issues? Hmm. Ok. Although it really is none of my business what you think of me, I will say that my worst motive in preventing the election of the ALPA horde was my personal loss of $100,000 per year in income as well as the loss of schedule flexibility (typically I drop down to 2-5 days of work per month before building back up) in addition to the loss of unlimited sick days (admittedly I haven't averaged more than 5 or 6 a year, I think), the loss of the zero cost commute, and a few other things that won't be confirmed until 90 days from now. My best motive was to prevent the culture collapse when the Encore pilots realize they have lost their position on the One List, with respect to OTS pilots, as regards their upgrade and base bidding. It has nothing to do with any psychological condition, though it's interesting that that is your best argument. I suspect you're a mouth breather.

Regarding the ALPA seniority list, here's a refresher for you, and the rest of the Ostrich Parasitic Disease sufferers on why there is, at most, 90 days left in the life of the One List. Don't shoot the messenger, I've simply tried to warn you (and the rest of the Intellectually Stunted Crowd) for more than two years what the election of ALPA meant to the fortunes of Encore/OTS pilots. It is not going to be pretty. For Encore pilots. For OTS pilots it is a windfall.

MEC Vice Chair TP says he was one of the 4 people who led the ALPA OC, which means he approved the OC update message of 18 months ago that stated:
"Once certified, WestJet pilots will control their seniority list. It will be up to the WestJet pilots to determine how Encore pilots are incorporated into the WestJet seniority list. ALPA will respect what the WestJet pilots decide on this matter. If the WestJet pilots choose to honor the date of hire of Encore pilots when they flow to WestJet, there will be no change in the operation of the current flow through."
I am told that the survey of WJ pilots conducted by ALPA after certification showed overwhelming support for the One List. But no one really knows, since that information has not been released. Assuming it to be true, then ALPA would do what it promised, keep the pilots on the WestJet PIlot Seniority List in the same order as on the One list. Although the One List did not provide for YOS upon accepting employment (after resigning at Encore) at mainline, it did give recognition of Encore DOH for upgrade and base bidding. So, has ALPA delivered that?

Well, it would seem easy, simply place Encore pilots on the WJ Pilot Seniority List according to their Encore DOH. Case closed. They then benefit from all of the contractual rights that their seniority permitted them. If that were so, however, why would MEC Vice Chair TP (see attachment) state:
"Our first MEC resolution was to recognize Encore pilots as WestJet pilots – essentially to remove any professional barriers between our pilot groups that exist because of corporate branding or aircraft type. Since then I’ve been working with their MEC officers to cement the one seniority list concept and the unification of our pilot groups starting with eventually creating a single MEC structure. This unity work very much captures my union philosophy. Stronger together."
Working with the MEC officers? No one would need to work with the Encore MEC officers if the the Encore flow pilots just kept their Encore DOH when they flowed. Something doesn't make sense. Any negotiation regarding Encore flow rights and seniority would be a matter between the WJ ALPA MEC and WJ management.

Regarding this specific issue, I flew with a Encore flow pilot some months ago who told me that he directly asked the former MEC Executive member CT about YOS for Encore flow pilots, and he was told by her that that was an issue for the Encore MEC to negotiate with Encore/WJ management. Strange, no?

I've already posted that current YVR LEC member SW (and I assume one of the three OC leaders TP refers to in his ALPA Board candidacy message attached), in response to a question in another online venue regarding the One List stated:
"Yes it was. I asked. It is solely up to us to determine our seniority list was the answer. I mentioned that "people" (not really more than 1 actually...) are saying that the ALPA policies (Constitution & Bylaws etc) don't allow for our "one list" or for future flow with DoH. He* was clear that this is not true and again, it is up to us to decide.
*ALPA President Tim Canoll, on the occasion of his December 2016 visit to Calgary.

So, the promises have been made. From ALPA President Tim Canoll, through to ALPA OC leaders RM (current MEC Chair), TP (current MEC Vice Chair), SW (current YVR LEC Sec-Treasurer), and down to the rest of the ALPA OC members who peddled this horseshit, they've all misrepresented what they could deliver: a seniority list that preserves the positions (and upgrade and base bidding entitlements) of the Encore pilots.

Longtime readers of my column here on Avcanada will remember of course that in Canada (NOT in the USA) the constitution of a union represents a legally binding contract (of adhesion, whatever the hell that means) between the union and its members. For proof of this, see this case here where there members of the Canadian Airport Workers Union ("CAWU") sued their union for breach of the union's constitution. Additionally, and much closer to the issue at bar, the trial judge in the original Berry v Pulley case (a result of the unsuccessful common employer action Air Canada/Connector airlines) did find that:
"The trial judge acknowledged that the CALPA Constitution and Merger Policy constituted a contract between each union member and CALPA."
So what does the ALPA constitution have to say about seniority list construction? Well nothing, directly. However, the constitution , which we now know (see above) is legally binding on ALPA, does state that the President of ALPA, Tim Canoll, must swear the following oath:
"I hereby pledge on my honor to accept the responsibilities of this office and perform the attendant duties to the best of my ability; to uphold faithfully the Constitution and By-Laws of
the Air Line Pilots Association; to comply with and advance the policies of the Association;...
Further, under Section 12 of the ALPA Constitution & Bylaws, the MEC Chairman (Capt RM) shall be:
The Association representative on his airline for the purpose of furthering and implementing
the objectives and policies of the Board of Directors and Executive Board
.
The long and short is that both ALPA President Tim Canoll, whose signature must be on any CBA between WJ and ALPA, and WJ MEC Chairman RM, are both compelled by the constitution to follow the policies of the Association, and in specific, the policies of the Executive Board.

The Executive Board is composed of the Chairman of the MEC of each airline in ALPA. It meets every two years and issues policy directives, each of which cannot be in conflict with the Constitution. They can interpret the Constitution, but cannot change the Constitution.

Since 1956, when Executive Board first issued it, the policy of ALPA regarding seniority list construction (absent from and apart from a merger) has been:
STANDARDIZATION OF SENIORITY SECTIONS
SOURCE - BOARD 1956

ALPA is instructed to use every means at its command* for prospective application two Sections of all agreements:

a. Specifically, the part of the Seniority General Section which establishes hiring procedures and establishment of position on the seniority list shall be standardized so that in the event of mergers, acquisitions, sales, etc, a common foundation will exist, thereby eliminating contriversy on this subject.

.
.
.
SENIORITY - GENERAL
SOURCE - Board 1956, AMENDED - Executive Board December 1971; Administrative January 1998 (Canada Reference Added); Executive Board September 1998

a. Seniority of a pilot shall be based upon the length of service as a pilot with the Company.

b. Seniority shall begin to accrue from the date upon which a pilot employed by the Company as a pilot begins operational training required to perform such duties in airline operations and shall continue to accrue during such period of employment except as otherwise provided in his agreement. The date upon which a pilot first appears upon the Company's payroll as a pilot and begins initial operational training required to perform such duties in airline operations shall establish such pilot's position on the System Seniority List.

.
.
.
d. Seniority shall govern all pilots in case of promotion and demotion, their retention in case of reduction in force, their assignment or reassignment due to expansion or reduction in schedules, their reemployment after release due to reduction in force, and their choice of vacancies...
Ok let's take a breather and assess what the preceding paragraphs state. They clearly indicate that the ALPA President Tim Canoll and the WJ MEC Chairman must implement a seniority list whose composition MUST follow the proscribed method as issued, and reaffirmed by the Executive Board. To do anything else, would invite a Breach of Contract action in court by the class of OTS pilots damaged but for the breach by ALPA of its own constitution. As can be seen in the Executive Board's reasoning, they standardize all seniority sections of ALPA CBA's in order to avoid controversy in the event of mergers (cough cough USAir cough America West).

Further, the seniority list MUST be used for implementing filling of vacancies etc. There is no favoring one group or other. Seniority rules!

Do I need to further refine Date of Hire concept for the disbelieving souls out there still mindlessly following a Pied Piper to the land of Happy Flow Pilot? Well, I do note that Encore pilots MUST resign from Encore prior to flowing to WestJet. That's right. They resign their job. At some point in the ensuing days after that resignation, their name shows up on an email that I more or less routinely receive from WJ management. The title of the email?

NEW HIRE PIZZA PARTY

In the body of that email is an invitation to a gathering with 8-12 pilots, some of whom are OTS and the rest are from Encore, who have just commenced training on the 737. They are, you guessed it, "new hires". Their date of hire is usually a week to ten days prior to the issuance of the pizza party email.

If you'd like some background information on what happens in a merger of two ALPA represented pilot groups and one pilot group tries to claim seniority credit for time before their date of hire with the "Company", look no further than the merger of the two following companies, United and Continental. For comparison, Continental = WestJet and Continental Express (COEX) = Encore. Spoiler alert: The COEX pilots who flowed to Continental did not get credit for time spent at COEX, i.e. prior to their "Date of Hire".
Under these morphing corporate structures, the two companies operated under different sets of FAA regulations and separate operating certificates. Their pilots had separate employment policies (during the years when there was no pilot union) or CBAs with different terms and conditions of employment – “regional terms and conditions of employment” for COEX pilots and “mainline terms and conditions of employment” for CAL pilots. The separate CBAs for the CAL and COEX pilots defined “the Company” as either CAL or COEX respectively. The pilots flew different equipment, stayed at different layover hotels, dealt with different managements and were paid through separate payrolls by separate companies with different IRS Employer Identification Numbers.
Whatever the corporate ownership structure may have been at various times, Continental and COEX never were a single “Company” as we understand the meaning of that term in ALPA Merger Policy.

The facts of the relationship between CAL and COEX establish that they were not a single “Company” during the period in which the PEP, the EOFPA, and the Supplemental EOFPA were in place. Indeed, the language of the policies themselves demonstrates that CAL and COEX were never a single “Company.” They carefully and consistently emphasize the distinctions between CAL and its Express operations.

Even taking these arrangements on their terms, they did not provide that COEX pilots would keep for all purposes their COEX date of hire upon transitioning to CAL. Nothing in those arrangements provides that the date of hire at a COEX carrier should be counted as the CAL date of hire or that time on furlough from CAL mainline should not count because some of those pilots flew at COEX during a mainline RIF period. Rather, the various arrangements simply set up a preferential hiring program using preexisting regional carrier dates of hire.

Finally, the CAL Committee position is independently problematic because, based on the terms of the PEP Chapter 9, over 60% of the pilots in question “flowed up” from COEX to CAL under a policy that was unilaterally maintained and controlled by management during a period when there was no pilots' union on the property. Neither contrary management personnel practices nor negotiated policies can prevail over the Merger Policy's definitions.
You may ask, what do problems in a merger of two ALPA groups from eight years ago have to do with a WestJet CBA? Well, clearly ALPA knows the problems that occur in mergers, and will do their utmost to avoid such problems later on. Ergo, they will do what they contractually and constitutionally must: they will issue a seniority list ordered by date of hire at WestJet proper, with no credit for time spent at Encore.

To do anything else, would invite a (in my opinion) successful Breach of Contract action by the OTS pilots materially damaged by ALPA's breach. How much would that cost ALPA? (See 17 separate court actions in Berry v Pulley for an idea). That said, there is zero chance of a non-DOH (WJ) seniority list.

When you read the terms of that CBA, in less than 90 days, please don't take out your anger on me. The following attachment has the names and contact info of the people you should be angry with. Rightfully angry with. Most of the names here merely negligently misrepresented the post CBA seniority list. I suspect that a few fraudulently misrepresented the truth. Tragically, the members of an OC cannot be held legally responsible for their misstatements. It truly is a case of caveat emptor, in which the only people to blame are the people who voted YES to ALPA without bothering to seriously investigate the issues involved, and instead, in some cases, merely tried to discredit me personally. Ceci dit, moi, je suis un grand garcon.
Thanks for sharing your point of view, we are all entitled to one. But the basis of your thesis is flawed, rezy touches into it a little. Either way, you could be right (based on the facts, little to no chance of that), or we could be right (which would be pretty nice for everyone). So having said that, what’s wrong with just hoping for the best instead of this divide and conquer mentality? If you stand by what you believe, which is that the one list is dead, and that we are all toast at encore, then you also know that there is nothing as of right now we could do about it, based on your theory alone of alpa not respecting a company’s DOH based seniority and that they have their own protocol. But, for right now, fact is that encore pilots are Westjet pilots on the one list, because, there is only one pilot seniority/department list (whatever you would like to call it). WJ and WEN MEC as well as the management personnel involved are ALL in support of it, but CBA will correct me if that’s just a rumour.

Now, I retracted some of my previous rude comments, since they were out of line, I do apologize. Even though I sit on the other side of the fence in this debate, no reason for me to be disrespectful.

But having said that, please do understand that in a very short few months, one of us will be right, and the other will just have to deal with it as it comes. So until that time, let’s all stop bashing ALPA, bashing westjetters, and try and get along. I still got a good 10 years to give this place, so I would like to make it count and spread positive vibes, good cheer and continue making incredible memories.

The proof is in the pudding, and we are just hoping for the best. Fingers crossed.
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MrTurbine
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#72 Post by MrTurbine » Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:21 pm

Accidentally double posted, my apologies.
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eyebrow737
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#73 Post by eyebrow737 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:33 pm

MrTurbine wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:19 pm
eyebrow737 wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:45 am
MrTurbine wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:38 am


Jeezus, what crap hole did you crawl out from? Holy Moses please do all of us a favour and go fly overseas. We don’t need your retardedness in Canadian aviation.

There’s an airline in the states called allegiant, you would thrive there.
I might as well come work for westjet - are they not comparable. What knowledge would you have anyway of anything outside Encore... probably your first job is it not
Oh god. Be careful bud, a lot of us here have been in aviation longer than you’ve been alive. Get your act together and stop patronizing good things happening in Canadian aviation.
How on earth do you know how long I have been in aviation my Womble friend. If you think this is new you only show your age (that and your position in encore or were you jazz, nevermind same thing)

If you have been in aviation as long as you proffer then you would know that this has happened many times before and will keep happening until the companies gleefully replace us

But thanks for the stern warning. It means so much coming from you.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#74 Post by FlyYYC » Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:43 pm

"the loss of the zero cost commute, and a few other things that won't be confirmed until 90 days from now"...
Is this confirmed?
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Bede
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#75 Post by Bede » Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:15 am

FlyYYC wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:43 pm
"the loss of the zero cost commute, and a few other things that won't be confirmed until 90 days from now"...
Is this confirmed?
No. ACM was one of the items already agreed to before the remaining items went to arbitration.

Pretty much everything Weedpro wrote was nonsense. We all have to wait until the new year to see how this will play out.
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