SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

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ameryass2000
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#76 Post by ameryass2000 » Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:58 pm

I’m glad your keeping a positive attitude as you’re probably going to need it the next couple months, as it will be stressful for the OTS captains.

As the interm order says, you will only be able to hold a position that your seniority allows. I believe this is another reason why Kaplan gave WestJet till December 1st to comply. That should take care of any issues in the training department and give WestJet time to get its own guys up and running. This Kaplan seems like a really reasonable fellow that gets it.

As for as the money, I could really care less about what you guys are being paid...that’s a WestJet problem. The problem was always guys holding Captain positions out of seniority. That will be fixed in two months. Guys that tried to circumvent the system and jump the cue are being
back where they belong in the cue, it’s as good as we could have hoped for. Others wanted to see you guys removed completely. I’m ok with this.

Question though, out of the original 26, how many are left? I wonder how many will stay?

Cheers
[/quote]

Is there any chance that these unscrupulous aviators could be sent to the right seat of a Dash? Presumably the seat they could hold according to their seniority in the whole list?
[/quote]
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Last edited by ameryass2000 on Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#77 Post by Alcoholism » Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:00 pm

eyebrow guy. While I like your posting style... however, cargojet hasn't helped the industry at all. They were (still are?) the worst paying/working conditions for a cargo airline. Your C U Next Tuesday CEO helped the race to the bottom, with the aid of your pilot group. Low bidding the Purolator contract that ended with over 100 KFC pilots laid off, not allowing employee jumpseat travel on own aircraft, spineless union reps, GS - who must be almost an alcoholic like me... I mean really, your post is some really black kettle pot $hit. Sure the Westjetty guys weren't the best, but with ALPA, I believe they are on the right path, and hopefully in the future, as professional pilots, won't picking up snot rags in the back.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#78 Post by 3down&loct » Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:48 pm

Alcoholism wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:00 pm
eyebrow guy. While I like your posting style... however, cargojet hasn't helped the industry at all. They were (still are?) the worst paying/working conditions for a cargo airline. Your C U Next Tuesday CEO helped the race to the bottom, with the aid of your pilot group. Low bidding the Purolator contract that ended with over 100 KFC pilots laid off, not allowing employee jumpseat travel on own aircraft, spineless union reps, GS - who must be almost an alcoholic like me... I mean really, your post is some really black kettle pot $hit. Sure the Westjetty guys weren't the best, but with ALPA, I believe they are on the right path, and hopefully in the future, as professional pilots, won't picking up snot rags in the back.
Ditto
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#79 Post by eyebrow737 » Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:10 pm

Alcoholism wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:00 pm
eyebrow guy. While I like your posting style... however, cargojet hasn't helped the industry at all. They were (still are?) the worst paying/working conditions for a cargo airline. Your C U Next Tuesday CEO helped the race to the bottom, with the aid of your pilot group. Low bidding the Purolator contract that ended with over 100 KFC pilots laid off, not allowing employee jumpseat travel on own aircraft, spineless union reps, GS - who must be almost an alcoholic like me... I mean really, your post is some really black kettle pot $hit. Sure the Westjetty guys weren't the best, but with ALPA, I believe they are on the right path, and hopefully in the future, as professional pilots, won't picking up snot rags in the back.
Couldn't agree with you more my friend. Bear in mind I left CJ 5 years ago for greener fields per se but I am still in touch with a few guys there.

I hear that the latest contract was a cluster and most got shafted by the Union and management under threats.

I can only hope that opening up the US would do wonders for aviation here.

As a whole I feel at AC we are also to blame for a lot of it by setting such a.low bar for FOs for starting pay. The rest of the industry seems to follow. Granted going from captain to FO and back again over and over has made me bitter but the whole system lacks competition that allows pilots to move freely choosing the best employer.

I'm back on the left and the pay isn't bad but I miss the freedom of direct entry of an expat and ensuring that employers are doing their best to entice talent. Something that is sorely missing here in Canada.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#80 Post by Alcoholism » Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:56 am

:goodman: A lot of us have been through the ups & downs, and it is frustrating in this industry. Like the saying goes, shit skies downhill... agreed, AC IMO is to blame for a good portion, especially with the lol10 year contract. With todays environment in the pilots favor, it is my hope WS will set the bar to be industry leading, as many union groups eyes are on them as there's a few contract coming up for renewal in the next few years or so. While the recent victory is small, it is one nonetheless.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#81 Post by WeedPro2000 » Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:42 pm

Alcoholism wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:56 am
:goodman: While the recent victory is small, it is one nonetheless.
Yes. Small it is. Prior to ALPA's election, all Swoop flying was to be done only by pilots on the (now on life-support) WestJet Pilot Department List, composed only of WJ and Encore pilots, with terms to be negotiated. So I guess one could say we are back to where we were prior to May 2017. Sort of.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#82 Post by Donald » Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:49 pm

Alcoholism wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:56 am
it is my hope WS will set the bar to be industry leading

Many of us hoped for the same thing when Encore started.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#83 Post by Mach1 » Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:47 pm

Alcoholism wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:56 am
With todays environment in the pilots favor, it is my hope WS will set the bar to be industry leading...
The company also loves to use that phrase, "Industry Leading." Unfortunately, they just never clarify which direction they are Leading the Industry.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#84 Post by KAG » Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:02 am

WeedPro2000 wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:42 pm
Alcoholism wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:56 am
:goodman: While the recent victory is small, it is one nonetheless.
Yes. Small it is. Prior to ALPA's election, all Swoop flying was to be done only by pilots on the (now on life-support) WestJet Pilot Department List, composed only of WJ and Encore pilots, with terms to be negotiated. So I guess one could say we are back to where we were prior to May 2017. Sort of.

Yes john we had the flying - for appalling wages. At least now we have a pretty solid shot at drastically improving that, especially given the common employer. So I'd say without knowing the conditions its already a solid win, and I'll bet you vastly improved wawcon.
As for the encore pilots, please stop using that as a front for your real reason you fight alpa - your huge T4 driven by you husseling the current system. Now I admit the "one list" may get screwed, but that's not alpa, that'll be from a minority group of pilots contesting it. alpa doesnt care how we run our list. So itll be pilots, then courts that decide the fate of the one list, assuming it's even challenged. ALPA isnt the end all, be all, neither was the wjpa. I'm very glad we had alpa helping to guide us through swoop and our new agreement. Guess we'll see shortly how truly successful they were, and how correct (or incorrect) you are.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#85 Post by altiplano » Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:25 am

WeedPro2000 wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:42 pm
Prior to ALPA's election, all Swoop flying was to be done only by pilots on the (now on life-support) WestJet Pilot Department List, composed only of WJ and Encore pilots, with terms to be negotiated. So I guess one could say we are back to where we were prior to May 2017. Sort of.
A bit revisionist? I seem to recall it was to be open to WJ pilots with B-scale terms unilaterally imposed by your management? What was the rate? Ballpark of $100/hour for Captains and less contribution on your ESOP?
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#86 Post by cloak » Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:56 am

Recently Jetlines had to change aircraft type because it couldn't secure enough NGs. Securing and retaining human resources is even more important. With the looming pilot shortage, top among them would be experienced pilots. As in most cases the real enemy is the breakdown of relationships and that's where the attention should go, not attacking people, and with the impending joint venture and expansion at hand, retaining experienced pilots is most important for WestJet. That would be a real victory!

Long term, won't be surprizing at all to see airlines give credit for previous 705 airline experience, and while seniority is based on date of hire, pay and vacation should be based on experience. In case of Air Canada for instance, even if new pilots start as FOs, they should start at the appropriate level and the pay levels could even be adjusted a bit to reflect experience, but one should not have to keep starting at the bottom. This will definitely attract more talent.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#87 Post by daedalusx » Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:50 pm

cloak wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:56 am
Recently Jetlines had to change aircraft type because it couldn't secure enough NGs. Securing and retaining human resources is even more important. With the looming pilot shortage, top among them would be experienced pilots. As in most cases the real enemy is the breakdown of relationships and that's where the attention should go, not attacking people, and with the impending joint venture and expansion at hand, retaining experienced pilots is most important for WestJet. That would be a real victory!

Long term, won't be surprizing at all to see airlines give credit for previous 705 airline experience, and while seniority is based on date of hire, pay and vacation should be based on experience. In case of Air Canada for instance, even if new pilots start as FOs, they should start at the appropriate level and the pay levels could even be adjusted a bit to reflect experience, but one should not have to keep starting at the bottom. This will definitely attract more talent.
That's a pipe dream.
Air Canada has no problem filling ground schools with 'talent'. They can still afford to hand pick their candidates and they will never ever pay an experienced high quality talented pilot year 1 FO at 777 CA wages when the Seneca kid on the Jazz PML program will still pass his ride and line check at the bottom of the barrel wage.
Is the 777 expat capt a much better, safer pilot than the 1500hr wonder Seneca grad ? Absolutely. But as long as all you need to be right seat on a 705 AC is 250hr and a written iatra you will never ever have a problem filling a Jazz/Encore/AC GS. It's a fairly easy to understand supply/demand curve - You'd think the negotiations committee union geniuses would work on fixing that rather than lobby for more PICUS which only serves as a way to get quicker and cheaper 705 captains. Get rid of PICUS and prohibit the cadets from buying their ATPLs by running 152s in circles is the day that Jazz/Sunwing/etc will have a problem finding qualified Capt - is the day that pay will get hire to attract experienced pilots ... Again... Very very basic stuff here.

Seems like no one remembers the glorious days of 18000$FO/36000$CA a yr Embraer/RJ pilots at the American regionals in the late 2000s until Congress got involved after Colgan...
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#88 Post by DrSpaceman » Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:54 pm

I agree getting rid of picus would go a long way. Also would be great to have a 1500h rule for 705. Did wonders south of the border for working conditions!
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#89 Post by cloak » Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:06 am

daedalusx wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:50 pm
That's a pipe dream.
Air Canada has no problem filling ground schools with 'talent'. They can still afford to hand pick their candidates and they will never ever pay an experienced high quality talented pilot year 1 FO at 777 CA wages when the Seneca kid on the Jazz PML program will still pass his ride and line check at the bottom of the barrel wage.
Is the 777 expat capt a much better, safer pilot than the 1500hr wonder Seneca grad ? Absolutely. But as long as all you need to be right seat on a 705 AC is 250hr and a written iatra you will never ever have a problem filling a Jazz/Encore/AC GS. It's a fairly easy to understand supply/demand curve - You'd think the negotiations committee union geniuses would work on fixing that rather than lobby for more PICUS which only serves as a way to get quicker and cheaper 705 captains. Get rid of PICUS and prohibit the cadets from buying their ATPLs by running 152s in circles is the day that Jazz/Sunwing/etc will have a problem finding qualified Capt - is the day that pay will get hire to attract experienced pilots ... Again... Very very basic stuff here.

Seems like no one remembers the glorious days of 18000$FO/36000$CA a yr Embraer/RJ pilots at the American regionals in the late 2000s until Congress got involved after Colgan...
That was my point too that those conditions in the U.S changed by market forces. ACPA for instance vaunted support for ALPA's fight with WestJet, meanwhile agreed to these low wages at Air Canada for 10 years! If it wants to improve the working conditions of pilots in Canada it needs to look no farther than its own home! This is why unions are not as effective as the market forces that now for instance U.S major carriers starting FO salary is in the low 80s and reaches a 100 very quickly, and the airlines are still making record money. That is also where airlines are beginning to give credit for previous airline experience and hire pilots at their experience level, not at year one. That was driven by market forces not by unions, and the same will happen in Canada by market forces and Air Canada too will have to pay the appropriate wages.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#90 Post by x-wind » Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:34 am

Is changing the regulations market forces?

It was the minimum requirements being raise first that started the wage increases in the US. The unions lobby for those increases and to maintain them. Who else would have advocted for those changes cloak? How many non union shops are there at those places that pay well in the states?
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#91 Post by mbav8r » Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:26 am

Although this is not the outcome wished upon Tbaylx and his ilk, two things jump out as justice served.
The pay being locked in, means he won’t benefit from any gains made in the forthcoming agreement, stuck at the abysmal pay he signed on for is deserved, the other, he won’t be getting 37 PIC to take to a Chinese or wherever contract.
I have to admit, I thought they were going to get ahead because my faith in arbitrators has been soured over the years, they always seem to side with the corporations, perhaps they did.
Also, it seems to have shut him up
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#92 Post by munzil » Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:48 am

mbav8r wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:26 am
, he won’t be getting 37 PIC to take to a Chinese or wherever
Maybe he didn't want to go to Chinese. Maybe he wanted to go to Japanese or South Korean.. maybe even a first world country that isnt hobbled by unions and has fair wages and benefits like new zealandese or Australian?
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#93 Post by cloak » Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:19 pm

mbav8r wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:26 am
Although this is not the outcome wished upon Tbaylx and his ilk...
Yet for someone who is so magnanimous, you still had to take a shot, well done!
If one's spouse has an affair, it's too tempting to blame the other individual, yet the real reason is the break-up of the relationship with one's spouse.
In these threads the attacks usually come from Encore and Jazz guys which is quite ironic! But if you are a WestJet pilot, focus on the relationship!
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#94 Post by mbav8r » Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:19 pm

munzil wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:48 am
mbav8r wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:26 am
, he won’t be getting 37 PIC to take to a Chinese or wherever
Maybe he didn't want to go to Chinese. Maybe he wanted to go to Japanese or South Korean.. maybe even a first world country that isnt hobbled by unions and has fair wages and benefits like new zealandese or Australian?
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#95 Post by mbav8r » Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:27 pm

cloak wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:19 pm
mbav8r wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:26 am
Although this is not the outcome wished upon Tbaylx and his ilk...
Yet for someone who is so magnanimous, you still had to take a shot, well done!
If one's spouse has an affair, it's too tempting to blame the other individual, yet the real reason is the break-up of the relationship with one's spouse.
In these threads the attacks usually come from Encore and Jazz guys which is quite ironic! But if you are a WestJet pilot, focus on the relationship!
Since when have I ever presented myself as magnanimous?
Ever heard it takes two to tango, Tbaylx was well aware the relationship was in trouble and took advantage of the situation, both parties are guilty. Still hoping the company gets its due for violating an agreement.
FYI, I am a Jazz guy and I’m not sure what you’re referring too, ironic?
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#96 Post by .80@410 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:58 pm

[/quote]

Maybe he didn't want to go to Chinese. Maybe he wanted to go to Japanese or South Korean.. maybe even a first world country that isnt hobbled by unions and has fair wages and benefits like new zealandese or Australian?
[/quote]

They can have him. Too bad he didn’t go there first .

“ hobbled by unions “
Please...

WJ has gotten away for so long doing whatever they choose... with no recourse for the pilots while they continually eroded our WAWCONs and when they couldn’t do that anymore they tried to circumvent the whole process.
ALPA clotheslined them , BAM ( ya that’s right imagine old school WWE wrestling analogy right there )
Crowd going wild .. you get the picture.
December will be the 3 count :smt040

Finally a level playing field.
Couldn’t be happier !!
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#97 Post by cloak » Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:16 pm

mbav8r wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:27 pm
...FYI, I am a Jazz guy and I’m not sure what you’re referring too, ironic?
I rest my case! How can you be so mad at this group of people and ok with JAZZ for lowering the bar on B757 pay or worse yet allowing a B scale?
Encore is the same, lowering the pay substantially on Q400, Air Canada for eating its young....Transat's B scale, on and on
Keep your eyes on the ball, not the players! I'm sure you're a nice enough person, but your anger is misplaced. And evidently you are not alone!
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#98 Post by Dizzy D » Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:17 pm

cloak wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:16 pm
[quote=mbav8r post_id=<a href="tel:1054368">1054368</a> time=<a href="tel:1538857676">1538857676</a> user_id=8159]
...FYI, I am a Jazz guy and I’m not sure what you’re referring too, ironic?
I rest my case! How can you be so mad at this group of people and ok with JAZZ for lowering the bar on B757 pay or worse yet allowing a B scale?
Encore is the same, lowering the pay substantially on Q400, Air Canada for eating its young....Transat's B scale, on and on
Keep your eyes on the ball, not the players! I'm sure you're a nice enough person, but your anger is misplaced. And evidently you are not alone!
[/quote]

So you are saying it’s ironic for Encore pilots to have an opinion on a thread like this? Are you implying that Encore pilots lowered the bar? Last I checked we had nothing to do with our current pay standards. There are many of us here fighting to get better WAWCON. I believe the majority of Encore pilots want to make it better here, not only for themselves, but for the pilots to come on the property after them and for the industry as a whole.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#99 Post by tbaylx » Sun Oct 07, 2018 6:35 am

mbav8r wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:26 am
Although this is not the outcome wished upon Tbaylx and his ilk, two things jump out as justice served.
The pay being locked in, means he won’t benefit from any gains made in the forthcoming agreement, stuck at the abysmal pay he signed on for is deserved, the other, he won’t be getting 37 PIC to take to a Chinese or wherever contract.
I have to admit, I thought they were going to get ahead because my faith in arbitrators has been soured over the years, they always seem to side with the corporations, perhaps they did.
Also, it seems to have shut him up
I don’t post unless I’ve got something to contribute, that and the expansion and training has kept me busy. In this case I’ll post to correct misinformation, and please, this is pretty much exactly the outcome wished by quite a few, including yourself.

First, it’s pay protection, not a freeze, despite what some may think. Which means the new contract rates and annual steps.
Second most of the ots guys had more than enough experience to go on overseas contracts when they joined (that’s why they were hired in the first place), none of us took the job as a stepping stone to Asia.

While not the outcome we were looking for, we are now on the combined WestJet/Swoop pilot seniority list, getting paid whatever Swoop captain wages are negotiated while we wait for our seniority to hold our positions again. Ask any recent WestJet FOs if they’d have preferred to have been hired on at captain wages while they wait for their left seat. With the wide body growth at mainline, Swoop wages likely arbitrated below mainline rates it won’t be long before there is enough movement that we can bid back for our positions using our new seniority number. If one chooses not to wait then there are plenty of opportunities within Canada and worldwide at the moment.

It ain’t all bad.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

#100 Post by cloak » Sun Oct 07, 2018 6:44 am

Dizzy D wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:17 pm
So you are saying it’s ironic for Encore pilots to have an opinion on a thread like this? Are you implying that Encore pilots lowered the bar? Last I checked we had nothing to do with our current pay standards. There are many of us here fighting to get better WAWCON. I believe the majority of Encore pilots want to make it better here, not only for themselves, but for the pilots to come on the property after them and for the industry as a whole.
So you're saying that you didn't decide the WOWCON at Encore, but saw an ad and opportunity that although was below airlines like JAZZ and Porter that operate similar aircraft and on similar routes, it was right for you and you took it, and in the meantime you are trying to improve the situation? Don't you think the same can be said about this situation? Except that the pay at Swoop although lower than WestJet mainline, was comparable with Sunwing, Transat, etc. It's all a matter of perspective and how one looks at the situation from all angles not one's own.

Someone asked is the government changing regulations considered market forces? The answer imo is that all these things are a portion and play a part in determining market forces.

Take housing market for example. The housing market was overheated in many cities particularly Vancouver and Toronto. There were lots of foreign buyers that greatly influenced the market. The government brought in legislation to cool off the market. And that it did. Now we can ask is changing the regulations market forces? Well it plays a part in it. All things do. An individual could have said the market is overheated and I will not be a party to it and will not buy in this market. Would that be market forces? This is the example of this situation and as though other people were saying do not buy in this market to cool it off. Now if everyone was able to follow it at the same time it may influence the market, but the truth is that everyone is in a different situation and makes decisions based on their circumstances and what is right for them. One who already has a place and can wait to buy cheap may like that idea, but another may not be able to do that. The same analogy can be used here that all things play a role in "market forces" including our individual actions, government regulations, the expansion and number of airlines, people travelling, etc. but clearly some don't have as big an impact.
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