(32 votes cast): WPSL Poll

[hurtin'albertan]

That would be an ad hominem attack.

I would do the same thing I were you and I didn't have any response to the arguments I have posed here. I would attack the person posing the arguments because I'm not smart enough to challenge him. I get it. (You have lots of company.)

John

The thing is John, is that the way you conduct yourself really rubs people the wrong way.

The multiple aliases, each one initially pretending to be a new person who supports your views, only for someone to recognize that it’s just John again.

The bombardment of this public and anonymous forum with all kinds of “evidence” which you twist yourself in knots around in order to support your views regarding internal WJ/WJE/ALPA business. You then draw conclusions which you proclaim is the god’s honest truth, however you fail to recognize the context of much of this "evidence" and the fact that it doesn’t apply to the one list situation. Also, you're not a lawyer.

Your outright refusal to seek answers thru official channels. All you have to do is call your LEC rep and ask them. They can get you the answers you seek, but for whatever reason (arrogance? stubbornness? some sort of personal code that you won’t talk to union types?) you would rather pretend that you are a lawyer and spend hours looking for shreds of information from every which where and try to stitch them together to formulate some sort of argument that you are right in your opinions and conclusion

Your outright refusal to accept the evidence given to you that the portability of seniority between alpa carriers is not only possible but it’s being done as we speak (Jazz lou 34). I won’t post the lou here because this is a public forum but you can probably find it online somewhere or do what I did and ask a friend to send it to you. Also, there’s this which was released publicly: http://flyjazz.mediaroom.com/index.php? ... tem=122663

The fact that you would air private laundry on a public forum rather than use the proper channels for your concerns. Who are you trying to convince? The vast majority of the people reading this site don’t work for WJ/WJE and don’t really give a shit about the internal business to the extent that you think they do.

So you see John, this is why people get annoyed. This is a real pattern with you, it started all the way back on the WJPA site years back when you posted all those AQDs and continues to this day. Really man, it’s fine to have concerns, but the way you address them is truly destructive not only to your own reputation, but it has ripple effects extending to the larger WJ/WJE pilot group.

You need to figure out a way to sort yourself out. I'd start by swallowing (see what I did there) your pride and calling your alpa rep and asking them for the straight goods. The discussion can be had, the concerns can be addressed but FFS this isn't the place or method for it.

[The Tenth Man]

In a previous post, Kaplan's June 8 order (in part) was attached, in which Kaplan stated that both WJ and ALPA had requested attention to the pressing matter of the "integration of seniority of existing Swoop and WestJet pilots". Responding to a private messenger whose point of view was that "integration of seniority" did not necessarily mean integration of seniority lists, I offer the following definiton from a study on seniority integration in the USA:

"One of the most complex - and frequently the most controversial - facets of an airline merger is seniority integration, the process by which the separate seniority lists of two airlines are consolidated, by work group, into a single list used by the combined carrier going forward."

ALPA_Seniority_Integration_Case_p1_JPEG.jpg (423.43 KiB) Viewed 2332 times

[The Tenth Man]

hurtin' albertan, when the MEC:

(i) announces their intentions with regarding to the previously announced LOU, and what the LOU specifically intends to accomplish (seniority list merger?); and,

(ii) announces the structure of the WestJet Pilot Seniority List (who is on it? is it by DOH at WJ or WJ/WJE?),

then I will remove all posts addressing the One List and ALPA on AvCanada. This matter is of immediate importance to many at WJ/WJE. If what the MEC previously communicated regarding the One List was incorrect or misleading, the time to communicate that fact is NOW. The sooner pilots can address the true facts of their situation the better.

Truth. Transparency. Unity.

Make those words more than just words. Use them as direction signs in your conduct, not just empty marketing lingo.

[The Tenth Man]

hurtin' albertan, I just had time to read through your post. Would you mind posting why you think the Jazz LOU is in any way similar to the situation at WJ/WJE. Show your work. Do like I do, and assume your readers are simpletons, and can't follow basic logic. Assume I'm that simpleton. Teach me. Why is the Jazz LOU in any way similar to the WJ/WJE situation?

I don't particularly care about who is annoyed about I've posted here. I am disgusted by what I see is the level of subterfuge, or incompetence displayed by those running your union. It is very simple to address the concerns I have raised. Just be honest. It won't hurt. ALPA has already shown its hand to management and said they will be approaching the company with an LOU. So follow through. What's in the LOU? How does ALPA propose to address the One List.

For @#$!'s sakes, are you that thick? It's not rocket science.

If WJE pilots have been living under false expectations for 18+ months, there is going to be a revolt.

Who is on the WestJet PIlot Seniority List? What is the order of those pilots?

You know, when a labour union takes away the rights of individuals to individually negotiate with their employers, they inherit a legal and moral responsibility to deal fairly with those employees. Stand up, firm your back, and demand answers from your union executive.

Snap! Snap!

[hurtin'albertan]

Snap snap? Rude and arrogant.

Maybe if you ask nicely. I don't ask how high when you say jump John. Show some respect and politeness when you are asking for something. Flies and honey and all that.

It's clear you are too "apathetic" to have read Jazz lou34.

[cloak]

That would be an ad hominem attack.

I would do the same thing I were you and I didn't have any response to the arguments I have posed here. I would attack the person posing the arguments because I'm not smart enough to challenge him. I get it. (You have lots of company.)

Indeed, that much is clear that some perceive certain topics as taboo and attack the messenger which gives more credibility to the message.

It is possible that the recall of the MEC Chairman might be related to the One List...

[The Tenth Man]

Snap snap? Rude and arrogant.

Maybe if you ask nicely. I don't ask how high when you say jump John. Show some respect and politeness when you are asking for something. Flies and honey and all that.

It's clear you are too "apathetic" to have read Jazz lou34.

Is that what the Encore pilots need to do to find about about their future and the truth of the current WPSL? Be polite? Hmm, noted.

Where can I get a copy of Jazz LOU 34, as I have not seen it (and not without scouring the internet, so, apathy - no)? Does it change the order of the existing Jazz seniority list? Does it reserve seniority numbers at the bottom of the existing Jazz seniority list? Does it place members of a ALPA bargaining unit above existing bargaining unit members at another bargaining unit when they are hired?

How easy would it be for the MEC to shut me up...show the pilots the WPSL (black out Swoop OTS pilots names if you like).

That easy!

It's like Ronald Reagan in '89, challenging the Soviet Chariman: "Mr. Gorbachov, tear down this wall!"

(And I apologize for being testy last night. I'm moving into my new condo today so I've been rushing around the last few days and was careless with my words. It's nothing personal, I don't know who you are.)

[The Tenth Man]

Regarding Jazz's LOU 34, in the absence of hurtin' albertan (or anyone else: pilotjohnjohn@gmail.com) providing me with a copy of the LOU, I am looking for primary sources describing the document. This is one description, but I suspect may be in error:


An LOU signed between ALPA and Wasaya allows successful candidates up to 15 years longevity credit (for pay, vacation and scheduling purposes). The LOU applies to external candidates applying on or before December 31, 2017.


The above does not refer to the critical items of promotion/demotion, etc that the 62 year old ALPA Executive Board seniority policy refers to (see below), and therefore the LOU 34 would not be in violation of ALPA policy. Nor would it replicate the One List.

Are there any more LOU 34 primary sources to which I might have access?


Seniority shall govern all pilots in case of promotion and demotion, their retention in case of reduction in force, their assignment or reassignment due to expansion or reduction in schedules, their reemployment after release due to reduction in schedules, their reemployment after release due to reduction in force, and their choice of vacancies, provided that the pilot's qualifications are sufficient for the operation to which he is assigned.

ALPA_Wasaya_Press_Release_P1_LI.jpg (1.6 MiB) Viewed 2107 times

If LOU 34 is not the hill that hurtin' albertan wanted to die on, what is he left for proof that the One List survives in an ALPA CBA?

[The Tenth Man]

Am I feckin' good or what?

[Sharklasers]

That's Wasaya release has nothing to do with Jazz LOU 34. Not once does it mention Jazz...
John has clearly come completely unhinged.

[skypirate88]

Let's not get ahead of ourselves now John.

I believe that document you found does not have anything to do with the LOU between Wasaya and Jazz. I believe that one simply allows credit to be given to pilots who join Wasaya if they had previous industry experience.

As for the Jazz LOU, it allows for a Wasaya pilot to reserve a seniority number at Jazz for a certain duration (not sure how long) and continue to work at Wasaya. Provided of course they are successful through the interview process. When they do come to Jazz, they slide into that number and hold the rights (scheduling, equipment bidding and vacation) that the number would allow.

I can't offer more than that because I don't work there any more and I can't remember the exact language and don't want to provide incorrect information.

[mbav8r]

This is public information, I won’t provide the actual LOU but it is correct that pilots hired will have seniority carried over from the specified ALPA carriers and language in the LOU that if Jazz wishes to expand the program they will discuss it with Jazz ALPA. Their seniority is for bidding position, vacation and schedule as mentioned below but not for pay.
This is from companies not owned by Jazz or Chorus, so what makes you think a wholly owned company like Encore who is also represented by ALPA wouldn’t be afforded the same.
To be honest, I mostly gloss over anything you’ve posted because as far as I can tell it’s all related to mergers, you’ve not provided anything related to this situation.
I guarantee one thing, it will only be prevented from happening by the company or pilots launching legal challenges, not ALPA.
Precedent has been set already by Jazz pilots, if not earlier. I would’ve been concerned if Encore pilots did not join ALPA but they did.
I know you’ve stated you don’t care what people think but you do come across as someone standing on the street screaming at passerby’s, “ the end is near, prepare your souls”.

http://www.alpa.org/en/about-alpa/our-p ... roups/jazz

“One of the pilot group’s biggest accomplishments in the last 12 months came in September when the MEC signed a historic letter of understanding (LOU) with Jazz Aviation management and introduced the concept of “seniority portability” for pilots at Bearskin and Wasaya who are hired through the Jazz Aviation pathways program. “The LOU gives pilots who wish to move to Jazz seniority on our list prior to actually flying for Jazz,” said Buraglia. This seniority is for the purpose of bidding position, schedule, and vacation and protects all pilots at Bearskin and Wasaya who wish to come to Jazz in the future”

It’s also been discussed right here on avcanada
http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 2&t=118841

[Rezy]

hurtin' albertan, when the MEC:

(i) announces their intentions with regarding to the previously announced LOU, and what the LOU specifically intends to accomplish (seniority list merger?); and,

It was said in the MEC updated that the LOU will go out to membership for a vote, this will happen after management signs off. So you’ll get to see it in its entirety.

(ii) announces the structure of the WestJet Pilot Seniority List (who is on it? is it by DOH at WJ or WJ/WJE?),

I have my doubts that any up to date seniority list (WPDL) or otherwise exists at WJ/ALPA right now. For months after ALPA certified the company refused to allow access to any seniority information, ALPA did the seniority draws for new hire classes and passed that back to the company, which in turn, kept all the seniority information completely secret and away from ALPA. To date- I haven’t seen any confirmation that ALPA has a seniority list in their possession or that the company is providing the information it has.
The company’s current WPDL has many errors, specifically pilots on it who have already quit and moved into other companies. It’s so bad that nearly all of the previous flow bids (encore to WestJet) have included pilots that left for AC (sometimes up to 10 months ago) and the bid results have had to be rerun.

[hurtin'albertan]

Am I feckin' good or what?

Sometimes I think you just say shit to get a rise out of people. Anyways.

Thanks for the apology. I feel like you were somewhat polite enough for me to spend a few minutes more on this. You're welcome.

Here’s how I understand it works today at WJ/WJE:

An Encore pilot joins Encore after whatever day that the original one list thing happened and gets placed on the WestJet list (gets a reserved seniority number) based on his date of hire. Lets say he is number 2000. If a pilot gets hired OTS at WJ right after that Encore guy, he is placed below him on the list because he was hired after and is now #2001. So far so good?

If or when the Encore guy flows (if he satisfies the requirements to get hired at WJ, because it’s a different company. His paychecks now say “WestJet” instead of “WestJet Encore” and he switched bargaining units), he keeps his relative seniority over the OTS guy, which basically today just affects his position (upgrade, base, equipment), since WJ does socialized bidding for schedules. I think Encore guys get to carry over their vacation longevity too (like how many weeks they are entitled to, but I’m not sure. Still with me?

Based on my “@#$!'ing thick” reading of the Jazz lou34 (remember, I’m not a lawyer, nor do I pretend to be), here’s how I understand it works at Wasaya/Bearskin/Jazz. Even though you haven’t actually read lou34, but felt it necessary to dismiss it anyway in a response in another thread, I won’t be quoting it extensively on this public forum but I will do a couple quotes because it’s the easiest way to make the points. The stuff I’m quoting is basically paraphrased in public information or common knowledge. I will not post the lou here, and I will not email it to you. If you want a copy you will have to find one on your own. Good luck.

Here’s one scenario from the lou. A pilot gets hired at Wasaya or Bearskin (after Oct 11, 2017) and he gets a reserved number on the Jazz list based on his DOH at that alpa carrier. Let’s say this guy was hired Oct 12, 2017 at Wasaya. Let’s say his reserved number is 2000.

“Any Pilot who becomes employed in the ALPA bargaining unit at another ALPA carrier after the date on which this LOU becomes effective will receive a reserved seniority number at the Company (subject to the requirements set forth in point A above) based on the first date of their employment at that other ALPA carrier.” (Company = Jazz for the purposes of the lou).

Point A basically says a pilot at another ALPA carrier that has joined the Pathways Program will receive a reserved seniority number at Jazz. This reserved seniority number will only become effective if that pilot gets hired as a pilot with Jazz. Meaning the pilot successfully completes the recruitment process, satisfies the conditions of the offer of employment, and is an ALPA member in good standing. Also: this number is only for the purposes of bidding position (upgrade, base, equipment), schedule, and vacation. Sound familiar yet?

“Unless specified in this LOU, it is understood that Pilots who commence employment with the Company will receive a seniority number at Jazz based on their date of employment as a Pilot with the Company” (again, company = jazz)

If a pilot gets hired OTS at Jazz, his seniority is based on his DOH. In “simpleton” terms, if a pilot is hired at Jazz Oct 13, 2017, he is behind the Wasaya guy mentioned above on the Jazz list. (#2001). Ringing any bells?

This is recognition of seniority of a pilot at one alpa carrier, based on his doh at another alpa carrier. This mirrors what the intent and practice of the “one list” at WJ/WJE does.

Apparently this didn’t cause the world to implode at ALPA HQ since the LOU was signed by the ALPA president and last I heard ALPA HQ wasn’t sucked into an interdimensional vortex. Pretty sure that would have made CNN since it’s kinda close to Washington, DC.

I think the problem here is that you are viewing the one list thing as a merger. It is not, it never was. The one list a recognition of seniority of an Encore pilot on the WestJet pilot list (whatever it is called, WPDL, WPSL, WACBDLMNOPL) via a reserved seniority number that the Encore pilot gets to enjoy the benefits of if or when he comes to mainline (like point A of the Jazz lou).

Now I kinda feel like I should address some of your other rantings but to be honest, I’ve spent enough time on this but what else is there to do on a layover after you've crushed a bunch of weights and had a huge brunch.

[The Tenth Man]

Gonna read your post shortly.

I think the guns will fall silent shortly as I have addressed all arguments posed to me and successfully rebutted them all.

[Mostly Harmless]

You know, when a labour union takes away the rights of individuals to individually negotiate with their employers, they inherit a legal and moral responsibility to deal fairly with those employees. Stand up, firm your back, and demand answers from your union executive.

When did you ever have the right to individually negotiate with your employer? That was done on your behalf by the WJPA from day 1 of the company. Perhaps I missed the opportunity or the time in which individuals went into the managers office and we all came out with different work rules and different pay rates.

[mbav8r]

Gonna read your post shortly.

I think the guns will fall silent shortly as I have addressed all arguments posed to me and successfully rebutted them all.

No, you have not!
You refuse to acknowledge or believe anything that doesn’t support your paranoid view of what you think is taking place, perhaps you should seek help.
Oddly, you have nothing to gain or lose with either outcome, so are you the harbinger of truth or do you have an ulterior movtive, ie; attempting to destabilize and divide the two groups for your true desire, get rid of ALPA.

[The Tenth Man]

Alright, that was worth the read. And thank you for the citations regarding the JAZZ LOU. I honestly did think that Wasaya prsee release would trumpet the most beneficial things they could regarding the LOU. The fact that they didn't highlight the bidding for position (base, equipment, status) seems odd. Oh well, I'm odd too.

The problem with this LOU as you have described it is that the Wasaya/Bearskin pilots are taking reserved positions on a list, that are below existing bargaining unit members as of the date of the LOU. That is not the situation that would recreate the One List. Using your example, if we made the scenario resemble the One List, the Wasaya/Bearskin pilots would be able to jump ahead (significant numbers) of existing bargaining unit members as of the date of the LOU. That is a huge difference.

Remember, following ALPA rules, the current seniority list at WestJet will be organized according to DOH at WJ, with no recognition for WJE service. That's a supposition, to be sure, but based on all the evidence I have been able to unearth, nothing supports a contrary position. Kaplan, in his order of June 8, ordered all pilots hired at WJ with DOH's after the Swoop pilot DOH's, to be added at the BOTL, with no mention of credit for time at Encore. It is hard to see him missing such a crucial fact.

At this point, I'd just be blowing air to go any further. The ball is in the court of the current MEC if they want credibility going forward. I am told, by a WJ pilot who receieved the email, that the current MEC Chairman believed, four weeks ago, when he was the LEC Capt Rep that the WestJet Pilot Seniority List was the same as the WestJet Pilot Departmental List. If that is a true representation of events, that is unfortunate. There is absolutely no evidence that that is in any way possible. The WPDL contained pilots from two bargaining units. The WPSL contains pilots from one bargaining unit.

As I said, the time for truth from ALPA is more than past.

TTYL

[The Tenth Man]

No, you have not!
You refuse to acknowledge or believe anything that doesn’t support your paranoid view of what you think is taking place, perhaps you should seek help.
Oddly, you have nothing to gain or lose with either outcome, so are you the harbinger of truth or do you have an ulterior movtive, ie; attempting to destabilize and divide the two groups for your true desire, get rid of ALPA.

What an oddly myopic view of the world thinking that I have no interest whether WJ pilots are a divided group or a unified group. The organization needs all members rowing together. Having 700 pilots who will feel harmed is hardly conducive to a cohesive group.

Your comment is perhaps illuminating as to why pilots at WJ were generally unconcerned as to the outcome of the One List. They didn't have something to gain or lose...

[The Tenth Man]

When did you ever have the right to individually negotiate with your employer? That was done on your behalf by the WJPA from day 1 of the company. Perhaps I missed the opportunity or the time in which individuals went into the managers office and we all came out with different work rules and different pay rates.

I always had the legal right to negotiate unilaterally with my employer. Whether they would have agreed to my terms is not of consequence. The point is, I only lost those "legal" rights with certification.

BTW, nice to see you back. I thought you gave up on me.