Statutory Duty of Fair Representation: LOU (One List)

[The Tenth Man]

I believe that this OTS pilot had a reasonable expectation that ALPA would follow its established policies.

You mean this policy?

In cases where one or more parties to the merger has flight deck crew members with grandfather or similar special seniority rights that are limited as to job classification or status within the flight deck crew, the merger representatives shall commence efforts to arrive at a mutually satisfactory method of integration and compilation of such separate special seniority lists as may be necessary and appropriate to preserve and protect such rights in addition to the flight deck crew seniority list.

That policy has been established for a decade. There is absolutely nothing in any ALPA bylaws or regulations requiring that seniority lists be ordered by date-of-hire. Your entire argument thus far is that the MEC and ALPA leadership have violated the seniority policy established in the merger policy, but the merger policy was amended in 2009. So now you're down to citing DFRs where the CIRB found that "the Teamsters did not act in a manner that was arbitrary, discriminatory or in bad faith and that its conduct did not constitute a violation of section 37 of the Code." And you think that's an argument against ALPA?! Honestly, you're just grasping at straws.

No. I do not mean that policy. The argument has nothing to do with ALPA Merger Policy, other than the genesis of the ALPA BOD Seniority policy was the severe hardships created by the lack of a consistent seniority definition in the mergers to date.

Let me be clear: none of my arguments rest on the assumption ALPA is contemplating a merger of seniority lists between WJ and WJE pilots, for reasons I have already discussed. Several times.

[cloak]

... I would argue that they are not doing you any harm, seeing as the worst outcome would be that you would end up in the same position you're already in. Whether the union has adhered to its legal duties to the members is entirely subjective and up to the interpretation of the Board, and considering the amended policy I quoted above I would say that since they haven't violated any ALPA bylaws and you would remain where you are on the list, no harm was done.

Too much assumption! "Harm" includes retarding growth, and obviously"spiteful conduct" against an individual or a group...

[Curiousflyer]

... I would argue that they are not doing you any harm, seeing as the worst outcome would be that you would end up in the same position you're already in. Whether the union has adhered to its legal duties to the members is entirely subjective and up to the interpretation of the Board, and considering the amended policy I quoted above I would say that since they haven't violated any ALPA bylaws and you would remain where you are on the list, no harm was done.

Too much assumption! "Harm" includes retarding growth, and obviously"spiteful conduct" against an individual or a group...

“Retarding growth”? Nope - ALPA has done no such thing, they’ve maintained the status quo with WJPA policies.

As an OTS (non encore) maintaining your status, as agreed during your hiring, is not harmful. ALPA not giving a select few priority status, is in no way harmful.

Your argument has gone from, it’s againts the bylaws - false, it’s against the merger policy - false, it’s against “established policies” - false, to it’s an OTS right is absolutely laughable. I can’t wait for your next insane idea.

[The Tenth Man]

... I would argue that they are not doing you any harm, seeing as the worst outcome would be that you would end up in the same position you're already in. Whether the union has adhered to its legal duties to the members is entirely subjective and up to the interpretation of the Board, and considering the amended policy I quoted above I would say that since they haven't violated any ALPA bylaws and you would remain where you are on the list, no harm was done.

Too much assumption! "Harm" includes retarding growth, and obviously"spiteful conduct" against an individual or a group...

“Retarding growth”? Nope - ALPA has done no such thing, they’ve maintained the status quo with WJPA policies.

As an OTS (non encore) maintaining your status, as agreed during your hiring, is not harmful. ALPA not giving a select few priority status, is in no way harmful.

Your argument has gone from, it’s againts the bylaws - false, it’s against the merger policy - false, it’s against “established policies” - false, to it’s an OTS right is absolutely laughable. I can’t wait for your next insane idea.

I think you are confusing cloak with me.

Let me be clear: it is the sworn duty of the ALPA President to comply with the policies of the ALPA BOD, as per the ALPA Constitution: FACT

The Constitution of ALPA represents a contract between the membership and the union: FACT

The MEC Chairman is "The Association representative on his airline for the purpose of furthering and implementing the objectives and policies of the Board of Directors and Executive Board.": FACT

I have never said it is against the Merger Policy: FACT

I did reference the Merger Policy's definition of Date of Hire some 22 months ago before I obtained a copy of Section 40 of the Administrative Manual: FACT

Regarding the rights of OTS pilots to a place on the WPSL that their DOH permits, that is simply a directive of Kaplan: FACT

Regarding Diadem's comment about harm to OTS pilots, he is thinking that there is no damage to the OTS pilots (in the event of a One List type agreement) because they are no worse off than where they are. He is mistaken. The WPDL, although it exists as a document, is actually not what governs the WJ pilots at this moment.

There is a WPSL that determines seniority ranking and it exists right now and governs promotions etc. The WPDL is a defunct document as far as WJ (now including Swoop pilots) pilots go. This what Kaplan said on September 30, 2018:

"Affected SWOOP pilots shall be awarded a position at Swoop at the Hamilton base, commensurate with their position on the WestJet Pilot Seniority List."

The above statement, along with Kaplan's June Order that stated that pilots would hold positions on the WPSL based on their DOH, means that so far, ALPA's first CBA at WJ is complying with the ALPA Board of Director's seniority policy. As per that seniority policy, promotions and vacancy awards are based on seniority, and seniority is based on DOH...at WJ. Period.

I am sorry to have been the one to break the news to the WJE pilot group. I truly wish that the MEC's of both WJ and WJE had managed expectations in a respectful manner. You all did not get the leadership you deserved. In the meantime, you are stuck with me and my ability to research complicated concepts and distill them down to their essence.

So, as you can hopefully see, the OTS pilots already have a negotiated right to a position on the WPSL that their DOH determines. All that is left to do is to decide what working conditions he/she will work under when they exercise their seniority rights. Any attempt to cause injury to these rights will likely be fought vigorously by those pilots. I have never seen a pilot not argue for his seniority rights in the three unionized airlines I have worked at prior to WJ.

P.S. If it helps any of you deal with your anger, then I encourage you to direct you anger at me. I am a very based individual. I accept that people react to loss differently. I will not hold it against any of you if you lash out at me. I have been in your shoes. The night Canada 3000 closed its doors, I cried. There was no one to be angry at in that case.

I could have used a John Swallow to swear at.

[MrMerth]

Such a selfless crusader you are.

[The Tenth Man]

Evidently you prefer the approach the WJ MEC has taken. You prefer being deceived, persisting in denial of the truth. That is hardly a prescription for sound mental health.

I am not a politician and I have little to no ability to sugar coat things.

[Rezy]

There is a WPSL that determines seniority rights and it exists right now and governs promotions etc. The WPDL is a defunct document as far as WJ (now including Swoop pilots) pilots go. This what Kaplan said on September 30, 2018:

"Affected SWOOP pilots shall be awarded a position at Swoop at the Hamilton base, commensurate with their position on the WestJet Pilot Seniority List."

The above statement, along with Kaplan's June Order that stated that pilots would hold positions on the WPSL based on their DOH, means that so far, ALPA's first CBA at WJ is complying with the ALPA Board of Director's seniority policy. As per that seniority policy, promotions and vacancy awards are based on seniority, and seniority is based on DOH...at WJ. Period.

I am sorry to have been the one to break the news to the WJE pilot group. I truly wish that the MEC's of both WJ and WJE had managed expectations in a respectful manner. You all did not get the leadership you deserved. In the meantime, you are stuck with me and my ability to research complicated concepts and distill them down to their essence.

So, as you can hopefully see, the OTS pilots already have a negotiated right to a position on the WPSL that their DOH determines. All that is left to do is to decide what working conditions he/she will work under when they exercise their seniority rights. Any attempt to cause injury to these rights will likely be fought vigorously by those pilots. I have never seen a pilot not argue for his seniority rights in the three unionized airlines I have worked at prior to WJ.

This is an absolute lie. There is absolutely no evidence that the WPSL is in effect or governs WJ Pilots today. The evidence is the exact opposite. On the most recent bid previous Encore pilots seniority was recognized above OTS and positions were awarded as such. The governing list is still the WPDL as recognized by the most recent bids.
So your fight to give OTS Pilots rights is based on false evidence, by your own presumptions, which I’ll admit may certainly be the case if the LOU isn’t sorted out soon. But in no means is there a governing WPSL in effect today.

[MrMerth]

You questioning my mental health is amusing to say the least. Encouraging infighting and lawsuit filing amongst WJ pilots is a really heroic attempt at Union Busting 101. Too late, that train has left the station and arrived at destination. Only a couple more weeks. How about contributing to the betterment of our profession instead of talking to yourself on this forum creating division and confusion.

All the best!

[The Tenth Man]

There is a WPSL that determines seniority rights and it exists right now and governs promotions etc. The WPDL is a defunct document as far as WJ (now including Swoop pilots) pilots go. This what Kaplan said on September 30, 2018:

"Affected SWOOP pilots shall be awarded a position at Swoop at the Hamilton base, commensurate with their position on the WestJet Pilot Seniority List."

The above statement, along with Kaplan's June Order that stated that pilots would hold positions on the WPSL based on their DOH, means that so far, ALPA's first CBA at WJ is complying with the ALPA Board of Director's seniority policy. As per that seniority policy, promotions and vacancy awards are based on seniority, and seniority is based on DOH...at WJ. Period.

I am sorry to have been the one to break the news to the WJE pilot group. I truly wish that the MEC's of both WJ and WJE had managed expectations in a respectful manner. You all did not get the leadership you deserved. In the meantime, you are stuck with me and my ability to research complicated concepts and distill them down to their essence.

So, as you can hopefully see, the OTS pilots already have a negotiated right to a position on the WPSL that their DOH determines. All that is left to do is to decide what working conditions he/she will work under when they exercise their seniority rights. Any attempt to cause injury to these rights will likely be fought vigorously by those pilots. I have never seen a pilot not argue for his seniority rights in the three unionized airlines I have worked at prior to WJ.

This is an absolute lie. There is absolutely no evidence that the WPSL is in effect or governs WJ Pilots today. The evidence is the exact opposite. On the most recent bid previous Encore pilots seniority was recognized above OTS and positions were awarded as such. The governing list is still the WPDL as recognized by the most recent bids.
So your fight to give OTS Pilots rights is based on false evidence, by your own presumptions, which I’ll admit - may be the case if the LOU isn’t sorted out soon. But in no means is there a governing WPSL in effect today.

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[The Tenth Man]

There is no mention of Encore pilots or the WPDL anywhere in Kaplan's Orders/Awards. The Encore pilots are still subject to a stautory freeze, so they have a right to flow to WJ if they are offered the right to do so. However, they assume a position on the WPSL by their DOH.

Interestingly, I note that a couple of WJE pilots who were hired in November 2017, applied for Swoop FO positions as essentially external candidates and were awarded the jobs. They have now moved past all of their WJE colleagues, some couple of hundred positions and are now occupying a position on the WPSL by their Swoop DOH. Any WJE pilots who flow according to the WPDL subsequent to these two pilots will occupy a position junior to them on the WPSL.

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[Rezy]

The Encore pilots are still subject to a stautory freeze, so they have a right to flow to WJ if they are offered the right to do so. However, they assume a position on the WPSL by their DOH.

I’m aware of the interim orders and yet my point still stands, Encore Pilots Seniority is recognized today as evidence by their successful positions bids.

The interim orders are in reference to a complaint by the WestJet Pilots in regards to Swoop breaking the scope agreement, Kaplan rectified that situation.

Once again, there is no evidence that the WPSL is governing WJ Pilots at this time, what happens after arbitration might be different depending on how the LOU plays out. You can highlight items all you want but they do not justify your position because todayEncore Pilots Seniority is recognized and no OTS rights have been infringed on.

Edited to add that the WPDL was updated to Dec 3 and includes WJE Pilots Seniority being recognized.

The facts speak for themselves - no WPSL today.

[Rezy]

The Encore pilots are still subject to a stautory freeze, so they have a right to flow to WJ if they are offered the right to do so. However, they assume a position on the WPSL by their DOH.

I’m aware of the interim orders and yet my point still stands, Encore Pilots Seniority is recognized today as evidence by their successful positions bids.

The interim orders are in reference to a complaint by the WestJet Pilots in regards to Swoop breaking the scope agreement, Kaplan rectified that situation.

Once again, there is no evidence that the WPSL is governing WJ Pilots at this time, what happens after arbitration might be different depending on how the LOU plays out. You can highlight items all you want but they do not justify your position because todayEncore Pilots Seniority is recognized and no OTS rights have been infringed on.

Edited to add that the WPDL was updated to Dec 3 and includes WJE Pilots Seniority being recognized.

The facts speak for themselves - no WPSL today.

Just to put the icing on the cake for you, the latest (Dec 3) WPDL has SWOOP pilots on it and low and behold Encore pilots have seniority over them.

[FurHat]

The latest published list certainly has any Westjet or Encore pilot who has transferred to Swoop identified with their respective position on the WPDL. I don't see any of the Swoop OTS hires published.

Who knows why? Perhaps the company is waiting for a final ruling from Kaplan. Maybe they are still trying to give any remaining Swoop OTS hires some anonymity.

Either way they know if they published a list with the encore pilots anywhere but their current positions as per the status quo they would probably have a serious short term retention/recruitment problem.

[cloak]

The latest published list certainly has any Westjet or Encore pilot who has transferred to Swoop identified with their respective position on the WPDL. I don't see any of the Swoop OTS hires published.
Who knows why? Perhaps the company is waiting for a final ruling from Kaplan. Maybe they are still trying to give any remaining Swoop OTS hires some anonymity.
Either way they know if they published a list with the encore pilots anywhere but their current positions as per the status quo they would probably have a serious short term retention/recruitment problem.

Why would that be necessary? As per Kaplan's interim ruling, ALPA was to cease and desist all its actions, and reverse past ones against them. Kaplan will not be impressed to discover otherwise! The company is simply working with what it has: the "old" list, until Kaplan makes a final decision.

Whether or not the company is going to have retention problems at Encore is a different issue and not the subject of the case before Kaplan. But likely, as long as the "flow" to WestJet/Swoop remains in place, the impact to retention is short-lived, and recruitment will not be affected much.

[The Tenth Man]

The Encore pilots are still subject to a stautory freeze, so they have a right to flow to WJ if they are offered the right to do so. However, they assume a position on the WPSL by their DOH.

I’m aware of the interim orders and yet my point still stands, Encore Pilots Seniority is recognized today as evidence by their successful positions bids.

The interim orders are in reference to a complaint by the WestJet Pilots in regards to Swoop breaking the scope agreement, Kaplan rectified that situation.

Once again, there is no evidence that the WPSL is governing WJ Pilots at this time, what happens after arbitration might be different depending on how the LOU plays out. You can highlight items all you want but they do not justify your position because todayEncore Pilots Seniority is recognized and no OTS rights have been infringed on.

Edited to add that the WPDL was updated to Dec 3 and includes WJE Pilots Seniority being recognized.

The facts speak for themselves - no WPSL today.

My interpretation of the WPDL being updated is that a statutory freeze is in effect, until Kaplan's arbitral award, and until such time as the statutory freeze is eliminated, WJ must operate without any change to working terms and conditions (for both WJ and WJE pilots). The document is still determinative of WJE FO upgrades to CA and, and base bids, and flow to WJ.

Regarding WJ pilots it is of no consequence whether it is updated or not.

Do not forget that Kaplan's first Order, in June, was the integration of the seniority of Swoop and WestJet pilots. It was not the integration of Swoop, WestJet, and Encore pilots. Kaplan had no scope to consider any issues regarding Encore pilots.

If you wish to find solace in the update of the WPDL, by all means do you what you need to do.

John

[The Tenth Man]

Regarding the Herndon Pact and the DFR, the situtation with regard to the liability of the MEC might be different if the company had approached the MEC's at some point and said,

"We have a problem with hiring and retention at Encore. We need ALPA to pull all the strings necessary in order to agree to an LOU that recognizes the Encore DOH's of pilots who flow to WJ. In return, we are willing to give Swoop pilots parity with WJ pilots in terms of pay and working conditions."

The above might have been a sufficient labour relations purpose justifying an injury to the seniority rights of OTS pilots. The bargaining unit as a whole would benefit from the elimination of differences between WJ pilots and Swoop pilots.

But that is not what happened. Instead, the MEC advised on November 2nd that they were proceeding with an LOU designed to injure (necessary to recognize seniority of WJE pilots within the WJ group) the seniority rights of OTS pilots. The communication revealed that ALPA was unilaterally proposing the LOU, absent a request from WJ to do so:

"...we believe WestJet group should view this agreement as good for them, as a major retention and attraction initiative at Encore. "

No discussion had taken place regarding Encore between the WJ MEC and WJ. This was purely a plan devised by ALPA. There is justification offered as to why doing so would benefit the bargaining unit, only a benefit to WJ.

If ALPA were truly interested in unity, they would have attempted to organize the Encore pilots into the same bargaining unit as the WJ pilots when they certified in May 2017. They did not do so. It is apparent from Capt TP's campaign material for the position of the Canada Board President that the intent of ALPA is to unite the bargaining units under one MEC. Perhaps ALPA should do that using established CIRB procedures, and not do it on the backs of the OTS pilots.

[Alpa Male]

This issue was bound to stir up a great deal of emotion. I understand the desire to silence a person who pointed out the flaws of our current list, but sizeable bold print telling that person to 'shut it' won't help, or stop what's about to happen. I get it though; I'd be pretty upset if I stood to lose 100 spots of seniority. Most people are sympathetic to your plight; like I'm sympathetic to the pilots who felt that YYC was the only base when hired, but now commute for an upgrade. Or the pilots who lost their ten year passes — all 'promises' (?) when hired, but things change. Trust me; this "train" has a few stops left.

John has stated many times over that he's not a lawyer. However, John is a man who had seen this before and witnessed how pilots behave over seniority. There are a great many OTS pilots who are affected by this, and who feel Encore pilots have no place on our list. To think that an OTS has not been resenting or plotting against the 'one list' from day one is foolish. These pilots are just waiting for an opportunity to challenge the validity of the one list. These OTS pilots will not seek legal counsel from John, but they will seek legal counsel, that's sure to happen. I've flown with many of them. I've heard their complaints and plans to fight for their proper placement on the PDL.

Be pissed at John all you want, but he's only presenting the shit that lawyers will throw at a wall until something sticks.

[FurHat]

The latest published list certainly has any Westjet or Encore pilot who has transferred to Swoop identified with their respective position on the WPDL. I don't see any of the Swoop OTS hires published.
Who knows why? Perhaps the company is waiting for a final ruling from Kaplan. Maybe they are still trying to give any remaining Swoop OTS hires some anonymity.
Either way they know if they published a list with the encore pilots anywhere but their current positions as per the status quo they would probably have a serious short term retention/recruitment problem.

Why would that be necessary? As per Kaplan's interim ruling, ALPA was to cease and desist all its actions, and reverse past ones against them. Kaplan will not be impressed to discover otherwise! The company is simply working with what it has: the "old" list, until Kaplan makes a final decision.

Whether or not the company is going to have retention problems at Encore is a different issue and not the subject of the case before Kaplan. But likely, as long as the "flow" to WestJet/Swoop remains in place, the impact to retention is short-lived, and recruitment will not be affected much.

The only directive included in Kaplan's interim ruling was for ALPA to remove the recruitment ban. Nothing about "cease and desist all its actions". Either way, I doubt that "ALPA" would be affected much by the Swoop pilots not being included on the latest list. There is no campaign to punish them. They know who the pilots there are, and will be represented by ALPA as a common employer shortly. There are some short sighted individuals though who think taking things into their own hands and mistreating the Swoop OTS could somehow be productive.

The company removed the names of the Swoop pilots from Westnet once before. Perhaps their exclusion from the list was for the same reason as that. Perhaps not. We will likely never know.

[skybaron]

From the outside looking in, I don’t see how their department list is in jeopardy, especially in regard to OTS hires. EVERYONE, knew the terms and conditions of their employment upon acceptance, so to change the rules to benefit very few is utterly useless. One list is exactly as the name implies. To say that the posts by John is here to “stir a pot” would be an understatement. Of course some OTS would want to capitalize on John’s points, but if I recall from a previous thread, NONE of Encore pilots went to Swoop when offered to them on startup. None. I would hope the OTS hires take a similar tone as Encore pilots in standing tall with their colleagues for the bigger picture. Don’t let John or the company continue to divide the pilot group.
Unity. I would hope to see ALL pilots in Canada be unified under one umbrella, but we must start one company at a time, and one backbone at a time.

Good luck WJetters.

[cloak]

The only directive included in Kaplan's interim ruling was for ALPA to remove the recruitment ban. Nothing about "cease and desist all its actions". Either way, I doubt that "ALPA" would be affected much by the Swoop pilots not being included on the latest list. There is no campaign to punish them. They know who the pilots there are, and will be represented by ALPA as a common employer shortly...

Well the "action" was the ban, unless you were thinking other "actions". ALPA was "directed" to remove the ban past and present and communicate it via the same channels previously used.

And I thought they were already being represented by ALPA since the interim ruling not "shortly". But what do I know?