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Rezy
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by Rezy »

tbaylx wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:37 am
RidersRule wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:13 am
As per the interm order from Kaplan...

Swoop pilots will hold a position at the Hamilton base that their seniority allows...

Comments Tablyx...
Unexpected and causing a bit of a shitshow over here at the moment.
Gonna be an interesting week. I’m not in the airplane much anyways, too busy in the sim. I’m not sure how Kaplan intends to staff the training department here unless he expects more experienced WestJet captains to come over at mainline rates to do the training from Dec onwards.

Either way it doesn’t affect my pay and I don’t sit in either the left or right seat in the sim, so I’m good for now. Our contract doesn’t freeze us at $103 an hour, we step up to level 3 so that should continue and give guys lots of time to decide how they want to play it. As much as some of the children will gloat over this there are some pretty good experienced crew in the OTS group that Swoop really doesn’t want to lose.

To be honest it’s been really good for Swoop to have the Encore guys and now some WestJet upgrades come over. The guys we are seeing in the sim and online have all been pretty sharp given the experience levels. WestJet did all the recruiting screening for us and we likely wouldn’t have been able to attract as many good pilots if we’d have had to go off the street for all the hiring. However none have the experience to take over the training department duties and I doubt mainline guys that do have the experience are going to come over here at the current pay and crew scheduling setup

So either Kaplan intends to give you pay parity with mainline which also would be quite surprising, or he’s going to have to come up with a quick interim order #3 detailing how he intends to have the swoop training department staffed. Not sure he really thought that one out. It’ll be an interesting week for sure.
You will be “frozen” at $103 an hour. Pay protected does not mean you can get raises. And it will be pay protected until you can bid somewhere else.
Perhaps you didn’t get the memo...WestJet is doing Swoop pilot training starting in November.
Best of luck.
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lostaviator
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by lostaviator »

We have a world class 737 training department at WestJet, finding trainers won't be an issue; especially now that we are a common employer. I would be surprised if our SOP's don't become more aligned to allow for greater ease of transfer between the companies. Paying money to train people to fly the exact same plane with slightly different SOP's isn't going to last.
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tbaylx
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by tbaylx »

Rezy wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:51 am
tbaylx wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:37 am
RidersRule wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:13 am
As per the interm order from Kaplan...

Swoop pilots will hold a position at the Hamilton base that their seniority allows...

Comments Tablyx...
Unexpected and causing a bit of a shitshow over here at the moment.
Gonna be an interesting week. I’m not in the airplane much anyways, too busy in the sim. I’m not sure how Kaplan intends to staff the training department here unless he expects more experienced WestJet captains to come over at mainline rates to do the training from Dec onwards.

Either way it doesn’t affect my pay and I don’t sit in either the left or right seat in the sim, so I’m good for now. Our contract doesn’t freeze us at $103 an hour, we step up to level 3 so that should continue and give guys lots of time to decide how they want to play it. As much as some of the children will gloat over this there are some pretty good experienced crew in the OTS group that Swoop really doesn’t want to lose.

To be honest it’s been really good for Swoop to have the Encore guys and now some WestJet upgrades come over. The guys we are seeing in the sim and online have all been pretty sharp given the experience levels. WestJet did all the recruiting screening for us and we likely wouldn’t have been able to attract as many good pilots if we’d have had to go off the street for all the hiring. However none have the experience to take over the training department duties and I doubt mainline guys that do have the experience are going to come over here at the current pay and crew scheduling setup

So either Kaplan intends to give you pay parity with mainline which also would be quite surprising, or he’s going to have to come up with a quick interim order #3 detailing how he intends to have the swoop training department staffed. Not sure he really thought that one out. It’ll be an interesting week for sure.
You will be “frozen” at $103 an hour. Pay protected does not mean you can get raises. And it will be pay protected until you can bid somewhere else.
Perhaps you didn’t get the memo...WestJet is doing Swoop pilot training starting in November.
Best of luck.
The entire swoop flight ops didn’t get that memo. Good to hear, I’d rather fly anyways.
It’s a seperate OC, just like encore swoop still needs their own line indoc pilots and ACPs. They can contract the sim work out.
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B757FO
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by B757FO »

You cannot hold a acp or B check position as a first officer so the company will have to have mainline trainers come over and do it. There are several Ex acp pilots at encore and westjet transitioning to swoop who will gladly step up to be acps at swoop. We will be just fine thanks. In honesty I thank you guys for helping launch our airline and look forward to you staying professional as we have through the transition.
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Dyna
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by Dyna »

tbaylx,

If you think you're in-disposable and integral to the success of Swoop, think again. There are a large number of highly qualified pilots at mainline that will easily replace you, yes even to fill the upcoming void in the training department.

The only reason you and your ilk are there is because you're low rent, second rate and willing to work at a discount. It has nothing to do with what you brought to the table talent wise.

You could have applied to mainline and helped to support this industry as a united group. You chose a different path. Enjoy the bed you made.
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George Taylor
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by George Taylor »

tbaylx wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:37 am
RidersRule wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:13 am
As per the interm order from Kaplan...

Swoop pilots will hold a position at the Hamilton base that their seniority allows...

Comments Tablyx...
As much as some of the children will gloat over this there are some pretty good experienced crew in the OTS group that Swoop really doesn’t want to lose.
You're not one of them. Sorry I think your pontification in any type of training role is coming to an end. Bye Bye
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lostaviator
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by lostaviator »

WeedPro2000 wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:41 am
With this decision made, I see that Kaplan, in his ruling, refers to a creature known as the Westjet PIlot Seniority List. There is no such creature available in the last negotiated WJPA pilot agreement, nor have I been able to find such a creature available on any WJ internal resource. I'd like to see where I sit on a Westjet Pilot Seniority List. All I know is where I sit on a Westjet Pilot Departmenttal List, which is a different and soon to be extinct creature.
I agree. I’d like to see this new complete list.

The current list that we have access to isn’t even maintained properly anymore. Names are added to the end as we hire but not removed when they leave. There are names on it that left the property 6+ months ago.

Who maintains “the list”? ALPA? WJ?
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Rezy
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by Rezy »

lostaviator wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 12:41 pm
WeedPro2000 wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:41 am
With this decision made, I see that Kaplan, in his ruling, refers to a creature known as the Westjet PIlot Seniority List. There is no such creature available in the last negotiated WJPA pilot agreement, nor have I been able to find such a creature available on any WJ internal resource. I'd like to see where I sit on a Westjet Pilot Seniority List. All I know is where I sit on a Westjet Pilot Departmenttal List, which is a different and soon to be extinct creature.
I agree. I’d like to see this new complete list.

The current list that we have access to isn’t even maintained properly anymore. Names are added to the end as we hire but not removed when they leave. There are names on it that left the property 6+ months ago.

Who maintains “the list”? ALPA? WJ?
Names have definitely come off the list - just not 100% accurately.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by RidersRule »

Tablyx,

I’m glad your keeping a positive attitude as you’re probably going to need it the next couple months, as it will be stressful for the OTS captains.

As the interm order says, you will only be able to hold a position that your seniority allows. I believe this is another reason why Kaplan gave WestJet till December 1st to comply. That should take care of any issues in the training department and give WestJet time to get its own guys up and running. This Kaplan seems like a really reasonable fellow that gets it.

As for as the money, I could really care less about what you guys are being paid...that’s a WestJet problem. The problem was always guys holding Captain positions out of seniority. That will be fixed in two months. Guys that tried to circumvent the system and jump the cue are being put back where they belong in the cue, it’s as good as we could have hoped for. Others wanted to see you guys removed completely. I’m ok with this.

Question though, out of the original 26, how many are left? I wonder how many will stay?

Cheers
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by Sharklasers »

I think most of us can agree that today is a good day for Canadian Aviation and a victory for organized labour.
Hopefully most of the 26 will go back to the rocks that they crawled out from under and reflect on the damage they nearly inflicted on the rest of the industry.

Congrats ALPA. Keep up the good work.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by daedalusx »

Its been a while since we had good news in the Canadian Aviation ... Feels good. Now let's hope the Encore transition goes as good.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by Ex DC10 Driver »

The last three posts express my sentiments exactly regarding this issue!
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Sharklasers
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by Sharklasers »

RidersRule wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 1:19 pm
Tablyx,

I’m glad your keeping a positive attitude as you’re probably going to need it the next couple months, as it will be stressful for the OTS captains.

As the interm order says, you will only be able to hold a position that your seniority allows. I believe this is another reason why Kaplan gave WestJet till December 1st to comply. That should take care of any issues in the training department and give WestJet time to get its own guys up and running. This Kaplan seems like a really reasonable fellow that gets it.

As for as the money, I could really care less about what you guys are being paid...that’s a WestJet problem. The problem was always guys holding Captain positions out of seniority. That will be fixed in two months. Guys that tried to circumvent the system and jump the cue are being put back where they belong in the cue, it’s as good as we could have hoped for. Others wanted to see you guys removed completely. I’m ok with this.

Question though, out of the original 26, how many are left? I wonder how many will stay?

Cheers
Is there any chance that these unscrupulous aviators could be sent to the right seat of a Dash? Presumably the seat they could hold according to their seniority in the whole list?
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by Benwa »

If you want to be ahead of the pack.

viewtopic.php?t=47666
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by YYZGDP »

"Affected SWOOP pilots shall be awarded a position at Swoop at the Hamilton base, commensurate with their position on the WestJet Pilot Seniority List. Such
individuals shall be pay protected until such time as they can bid into a position equal to the one from which they have been displaced."

No, looks like they cannot be sent right seat dash.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by WeedPro2000 »

YYZGDP wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:51 pm
"Affected SWOOP pilots shall be awarded a position at Swoop at the Hamilton base, commensurate with their position on the WestJet Pilot Seniority List. Such
individuals shall be pay protected until such time as they can bid into a position equal to the one from which they have been displaced."

No, looks like they cannot be sent right seat dash.
The Encore pilots are in a separate bargaining unit. Only with an agreement by WJ that Encore and WJ are the same company (As happened with Swoop), or with a successful single employer application by ALPA, could an OTS Swoop pilot end up on a Q400. Further, the existing Swoop OTS pilots are ahead of any Encore pilots who eventually will flow to WJ mainline. That's ALPA policy. Any other outcome is a guaranteed Breach of Contract action by existing WJ OTS pilots damaged by ALPA's breach.

But wait until December for proof. Then you can call me full of shite. Or praise me as prescient.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by MrTurbine »

lostaviator wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 12:41 pm
WeedPro2000 wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:41 am
With this decision made, I see that Kaplan, in his ruling, refers to a creature known as the Westjet PIlot Seniority List. There is no such creature available in the last negotiated WJPA pilot agreement, nor have I been able to find such a creature available on any WJ internal resource. I'd like to see where I sit on a Westjet Pilot Seniority List. All I know is where I sit on a Westjet Pilot Departmenttal List, which is a different and soon to be extinct creature.
I agree. I’d like to see this new complete list.

The current list that we have access to isn’t even maintained properly anymore. Names are added to the end as we hire but not removed when they leave. There are names on it that left the property 6+ months ago.

Who maintains “the list”? ALPA? WJ?
Usually the Assistant chief pilot for crew management I think. They are the ones that take care of who upgrades to the left seat and who flows to mainline. so they look at the list at least twice a month. And they add names to the list. Encore has their own Crew management person and mainline has their own. So they probably discuss the list with each other (presumption).

Yes there’s a few names on there that definitely shouldn’t be. Like when last week when they published the flow list from encore to mainline, and there was a name of a guy on the list who left to AC six months ago. Embarrassing for sure.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by Rezy »

WeedPro2000 wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:10 pm
Then you can call me full of shite.
It’s been done before and will be done again.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by Piston-Broke »

A rare, correct and profound moment in Canadian aviation. Congrats to everyone affected by this failed attempt to circumvent our loyalty and dedication to Westjet. A decision that will quite possibly protect Westjet from itself and preserve whatever relationship is left between the pilots and executives.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by eyebrow737 »

Sharklasers wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 1:29 pm
I think most of us can agree that today is a good day for Canadian Aviation and a victory for organized labour.
Hopefully most of the 26 will go back to the rocks that they crawled out from under and reflect on the damage they nearly inflicted on the rest of the industry.

Congrats ALPA. Keep up the good work.
Says the pilots that pick up trash. You, my misinformed friend are doing the real damage. You and your organized labor communist gang that rewards time served instead of talent. Any removal of meritocracy from our lives only rewards laziness.

Have you ever wondered why Canadian aviation pays the worst and has the worst benefits? It's because of idiots like you who keep on pushing a broken system.

If you really had any care for the industry you would stop doing the same thing over and over again and expecting it to change.

The definition of WestJet truely is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result.

You dimwits are all the problem. But what could you expect from discount rate airline pilots that wear rubber gloves to work
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by 3down&loct »

eyebrow737 wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:52 pm
Sharklasers wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 1:29 pm
I think most of us can agree that today is a good day for Canadian Aviation and a victory for organized labour.
Hopefully most of the 26 will go back to the rocks that they crawled out from under and reflect on the damage they nearly inflicted on the rest of the industry.

Congrats ALPA. Keep up the good work.
Says the pilots that pick up trash. You, my misinformed friend are doing the real damage. You and your organized labor communist gang that rewards time served instead of talent. Any removal of meritocracy from our lives only rewards laziness.

Have you ever wondered why Canadian aviation pays the worst and has the worst benefits? It's because of idiots like you who keep on pushing a broken system.

If you really had any care for the industry you would stop doing the same thing over and over again and expecting it to change.

The definition of WestJet truely is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result.

You dimwits are all the problem. But what could you expect from discount rate airline pilots that wear rubber gloves to work
Where have you been for the last 2 years. What you speak of is exactly what we are trying to change. Pretty disrespectful comment considering what we are trying to do for the industry.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by tailgunner »

Eyebrow,
How do you rate “talent” in an airline environment. Should a Snowbird pilot immediately be pushed to the front of the line when they are hired? What about a 15000 hour Twin Otter pilot? Do they have more or less “talent than a 4500 hour LearJet pilot.
As you can hopefully now see, your comments are unjustified and only show a lack of reasoning and frankly, any thought.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by FL410AV8R »

eyebrow737 wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:52 pm
Sharklasers wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 1:29 pm
I think most of us can agree that today is a good day for Canadian Aviation and a victory for organized labour.
Hopefully most of the 26 will go back to the rocks that they crawled out from under and reflect on the damage they nearly inflicted on the rest of the industry.

Congrats ALPA. Keep up the good work.
Says the pilots that pick up trash. You, my misinformed friend are doing the real damage. You and your organized labor communist gang that rewards time served instead of talent. Any removal of meritocracy from our lives only rewards laziness.

Have you ever wondered why Canadian aviation pays the worst and has the worst benefits? It's because of idiots like you who keep on pushing a broken system.

If you really had any care for the industry you would stop doing the same thing over and over again and expecting it to change.

The definition of WestJet truely is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result.

You dimwits are all the problem. But what could you expect from discount rate airline pilots that wear rubber gloves to work
Maybe you will enlighten us plebians just what exactly your sanctimonious ass has done to better this industry.

Other than looking after the aforementioned sanctimonious ass, as given your demeanour that goes without mention.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by groundpilot »

eyebrow737 wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:52 pm
Sharklasers wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 1:29 pm
I think most of us can agree that today is a good day for Canadian Aviation and a victory for organized labour.
Hopefully most of the 26 will go back to the rocks that they crawled out from under and reflect on the damage they nearly inflicted on the rest of the industry.

Congrats ALPA. Keep up the good work.
Says the pilots that pick up trash. You, my misinformed friend are doing the real damage. You and your organized labor communist gang that rewards time served instead of talent. Any removal of meritocracy from our lives only rewards laziness.

Have you ever wondered why Canadian aviation pays the worst and has the worst benefits? It's because of idiots like you who keep on pushing a broken system.

If you really had any care for the industry you would stop doing the same thing over and over again and expecting it to change.

The definition of WestJet truely is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result.

You dimwits are all the problem. But what could you expect from discount rate airline pilots that wear rubber gloves to work
I have been a member of “meritorious” & “seniority” and although I see your angle of “rewarding laziness”, I will take a seniority based system any day

First issue is how do you calculate merit with say 2000 pilots? Can you say politics?

Seniority is the most fair system there is. It is super simple.

How would you feel working for a large company for 20 years and suddenly getting kicked out of a position or even base because the newest manager liked others suddenly over you?

It works south of the border and they aren’t exactly starving down there...
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by RidersRule »

eyebrow737 wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:52 pm
Sharklasers wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 1:29 pm
I think most of us can agree that today is a good day for Canadian Aviation and a victory for organized labour.
Hopefully most of the 26 will go back to the rocks that they crawled out from under and reflect on the damage they nearly inflicted on the rest of the industry.

Congrats ALPA. Keep up the good work.
Says the pilots that pick up trash. You, my misinformed friend are doing the real damage. You and your organized labor communist gang that rewards time served instead of talent. Any removal of meritocracy from our lives only rewards laziness.

Have you ever wondered why Canadian aviation pays the worst and has the worst benefits? It's because of idiots like you who keep on pushing a broken system.

If you really had any care for the industry you would stop doing the same thing over and over again and expecting it to change.

The definition of WestJet truely is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result.

You dimwits are all the problem. But what could you expect from discount rate airline pilots that wear rubber gloves to work

Well,

Me thinks we just found one of the displaced OTS Swoop captains 😂...
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