China_CAAC's Merged Threads

[aerobod]

So what’s the plan for crews grooming the 87s? Pilots do first class and FAs the rest?

No employee grooming, the same as the 67s, other transatlantic flights and any flights terminating - all have cleaners on, as has been the case for a while.

[aerobod]

Spirit pays its Captains approximately $300,000cad

At the 12 yr mark for captains, FO year 1 is about $70,000cad equivalent.

In terms of total compensation (~70% base salary; ~30% ESPP, PS, RSU, SO) captains at the top of the scale at WestJet are at about $300K, more if they work some overtime. I’m sure WestJet will pay a base comparable to Spirit after the CBA is sorted, but most of the non-base compensation will likely disappear, so more tax will be paid on the same total earnings due to no capital gains relief.

[sicamore]

[ I’m sure WestJet will pay a base comparable to Spirit after the CBA is sorted

That's the saddest thing I have heard all year.

[altiplano]

I think to say Spirit/WestJet pay is remotely equivalent is grossly inaccurate.

You can't cherry pick maximum OT examples.
Spirit pays OT premiums too. I'm sure there is some guy there making half a million somehow...

IMO you have to look at base numbers based on an average pay:

WestJet 12 year Captain ~ $210 CAD / hour
+ 20% matching

Spirit 12 year Captain ~ $310 CAD / hour
+ 8% international override
+ 2% A321 override
+ 15% direct employer contribution (no matching)

Let's say 80 hours/month 960/hours a year:

Westjet

$201,600 flight pay

$40,320 20% stock match

$241,920

Spirit

$297,600 flight pay
$1488 (2% 321 premium based on 25% fleet is 321)
$2381 (8% international based on 10% flying out of US)

$301,469 total flying pay

$45,221 direct employer paid contribution

$346,690

So I've got an "average" Spirit 12 year Captain about $105K ahead, without having to let 40% of his compensation ride on an airline stock, with base LTD paid by the company, with a 3 year upgrade.

We could do it for FOs too, or any step on the scale, but you get the idea and every step at Spirit is far higher...

A ways off of equivalent...

I'm not trying to put anything down, but we need to keep an accurate picture of where we actually stand in terms of pay and compensation in this country.

I hope you CBA does reach equivalent compensation with Spirit/Southwest/Alaska/etc...

[cloak]

Base salary in Canada for pilots doesn’t seem to be that far off compared with many first world countries. Here is one major salary comparison web site that is well regarded, feel free to provide your own comparison
https://www.salaryexpert.com/salary/bro ... line-pilot:
...

Interesting, but entry level pay of over 90K in Toronto and nationally over 84K? No one pays that sort of entry level pay in Canada(yet!).

[True North]

I think to say Spirit/WestJet pay is remotely equivalent is grossly inaccurate.

And the comparison utterly irrelevant.

I'm not trying to put anything down, but we need to keep an accurate picture of where we actually stand in terms of pay and compensation in this country.

So why are you comparing yourselves to American carriers?

I hope you CBA does reach equivalent compensation with Spirit/Southwest/Alaska/etc...

Dream on.

[aerobod]

Spirit pay was driven by market forces to give them a 43% increase to their current position in January this year due to them being below market average and are now in an above average position.

WestJet pay will be changed in the CBA, but market forces and the arbitrator are unlikely to move it far in terms of total compensation, as it is already market competitive in Canada, as I’ve stated a couple of times before it is most likely the base salary that will increase by reducing the variable compensation components.

The key thing is that you are going to have to shift markets, I.e. move to the US, Japan, China, Australia if you want a market which has higher pay, if you prefer to live in Canada, then wages are going to be better than most European countries going by the published averages. Canada seems to be right in the middle for the G7 countries for average commercial pilot salary, below Japan, US and Germany, but above UK, France and Italy.

[aerobod]

Base salary in Canada for pilots doesn’t seem to be that far off compared with many first world countries. Here is one major salary comparison web site that is well regarded, feel free to provide your own comparison
https://www.salaryexpert.com/salary/bro ... line-pilot:
...

Interesting, but entry level pay of over 90K in Toronto and nationally over 84K? No one pays that sort of entry level pay in Canada(yet!).

If you read their definition of entry level pay, it is 1-3 years experience, not the year 1 scale. Senior is 8+ years of experience. Basically entry level is going to be closer to the first quartile and senior the fourth quartile.

[aerobod]

I think to say Spirit/WestJet pay is remotely equivalent is grossly inaccurate.

You can't cherry pick maximum OT examples.
Spirit pays OT premiums too. I'm sure there is some guy there making half a million somehow...

IMO you have to look at base numbers based on an average pay:

WestJet 12 year Captain ~ $210 CAD / hour
+ 20% matching

Spirit 12 year Captain ~ $310 CAD / hour
+ 8% international override
+ 2% A321 override
+ 15% direct employer contribution (no matching)

Let's say 80 hours/month 960/hours a year:

Westjet

$201,600 flight pay

$40,320 20% stock match

$241,920

Spirit

$297,600 flight pay
$1488 (2% 321 premium based on 25% fleet is 321)
$2381 (8% international based on 10% flying out of US)

$301,469 total flying pay

$45,221 direct employer paid contribution

$346,690

So I've got an "average" Spirit 12 year Captain about $105K ahead, without having to let 40% of his compensation ride on an airline stock, with base LTD paid by the company, with a 3 year upgrade.

We could do it for FOs too, or any step on the scale, but you get the idea and every step at Spirit is far higher...

A ways off of equivalent...

I'm not trying to put anything down, but we need to keep an accurate picture of where we actually stand in terms of pay and compensation in this country.

I hope you CBA does reach equivalent compensation with Spirit/Southwest/Alaska/etc...

As far as I can see outside of stated information in Airline Pilot Central, the RSU, Stock Option and Proifit Share components have not been captured. Spirit does state a profit share program, but no evidence in their financials of any significant payout, they also have no evidence of special share units or options being paid to anyone other than Execs. WestJet profit share has averaged about 10% of base salary for the past 10 years (with a range of 2% to just below 20% in a given year). with RSUs and stock options at about 15%, leading to 25% additional compensation (not including the tax advantage of capital gains as opposed to income tax on the options) in an average year on top of the Airline Pilot Central info is realistic, bringing the WestJet year 12 captain total compensation to $292K at 80 hours or $301K at the maximum 82.5 hours before overtime - this is borne out by the T4 slips from the senior pilots at WestJet and the compensation costs the company pays to pilots (if you are a WestJetter, you will have to talk to Finance to get details on that, but the information is available and tracked). The $370K or more T4 that JS quotes for himself is obviously based on quite a bit of overtime.

One other factor is how block time is measured and paid for. I can't find any details related to changes in the new Spirit CBA about moving away from "Block Out Time", defined by Spirit as taxiing at 0.5 knots. This will reduces block time by about 10% on an average 2 hour segment by not paying for pushback and any wait for congestion on the ramp. Spirit also has a no block time padding philosophy so uses a BTR0 of 50%, compared with a BTR0 in the 60 to 70% range for WestJet, pushing to reach the published on time arrival time for Spirit will compress the block time a further 5% or so on a 2 hour segment when comparing BTR0=50 to BTR0=65.

[altiplano]

And the comparison utterly irrelevant.

Maybe. Maybe not... to you. I don't think it's irrelevant, and I didn't bring it into this conversation... but if you're going to make it, make it accurately.

I'm not trying to put anything down, but we need to keep an accurate picture of where we actually stand in terms of pay and compensation in this country.

So why are you comparing yourselves to American carriers?

Again, you may think it's irrelevant, but it is... You're a fool not to consider where we stand among other advanced economies. Do you not think other professionals compare themselves to the relevant world market? Architects? Doctors? Engineers? Even specialized skilled labour?

I hope you CBA does reach equivalent compensation with Spirit/Southwest/Alaska/etc...

Dream on.

I didn't say it. Just trying to be positive to someone else's comment, and not a dickhead. Some people find that difficult, I know...

[altiplano]

As far as I can see outside of stated information in Airline Pilot Central, the RSU, Stock Option and Proifit Share components have not been captured. Spirit does state a profit share program, but no evidence in their financials of any significant payout, they also have no evidence of special share units or options being paid to anyone other than Execs. WestJet profit share has averaged about 10% of base salary for the past 10 years (with a range of 2% to just below 20% in a given year). with RSUs and stock options at about 15%, leading to 25% additional compensation (not including the tax advantage of capital gains as opposed to income tax on the options) in an average year on top of the Airline Pilot Central info is realistic, bringing the WestJet year 12 captain total compensation to $292K at 80 hours or $301K at the maximum 82.5 hours before overtime - this is borne out by the T4 slips from the senior pilots at WestJet and the compensation costs the company pays to pilots (if you are a WestJetter, you will have to talk to Finance to get details on that, but the information is available and tracked). The $370K or more T4 that JS quotes for himself is obviously based on quite a bit of overtime.

One other factor is how block time is measured and paid for. I can't find any details related to changes in the new Spirit CBA about moving away from "Block Out Time", defined by Spirit as taxiing at 0.5 knots. This will reduces block time by about 10% on an average 2 hour segment by not paying for pushback and any wait for congestion on the ramp. Spirit also has a no block time padding philosophy so uses a BTR0 of 50%, compared with a BTR0 in the 60 to 70% range for WestJet, pushing to reach the published on time arrival time for Spirit will compress the block time a further 5% or so on a 2 hour segment when comparing BTR0=50 to BTR0=65.

RSU's are discretion of the board, no?

Profit share and Options are contractual I understand, but again can you count on them? Profit share is ultimately a lot of discretion and conditions aren't always conducive to exercising options, I guess we'll see.

Not sure why you're adding in 30 hours to the WS figure in this comparison or splitting hairs on taxi speeds... Are you really getting into block growth to try to narrow your gap? Paid at 50 vs. 70 percentile block is better anyway... more free pay for all the more times you're early.

Additionally, if we're going to get into taxation as a benefit, like options exercised cashless and taxed as a capital gain vs. employment income, maybe you should start talking about the WS ESPP and the amount of taxes paid on that 40%... Or maybe we should bring in US taxes... Or employer (not) paid benefits... I don't think it's relevant to this discusiion.

I think you need to be comparing real money you can always expect to be paid month in, month out.

Anyway, I'll tell you one thing I know, AC widebody Captain with a son down there that upgraded quickly and is pulling in more than him month in month out... Fact is there is no comparison.

[aerobod]

As far as I can see outside of stated information in Airline Pilot Central, the RSU, Stock Option and Proifit Share components have not been captured. Spirit does state a profit share program, but no evidence in their financials of any significant payout, they also have no evidence of special share units or options being paid to anyone other than Execs. WestJet profit share has averaged about 10% of base salary for the past 10 years (with a range of 2% to just below 20% in a given year). with RSUs and stock options at about 15%, leading to 25% additional compensation (not including the tax advantage of capital gains as opposed to income tax on the options) in an average year on top of the Airline Pilot Central info is realistic, bringing the WestJet year 12 captain total compensation to $292K at 80 hours or $301K at the maximum 82.5 hours before overtime - this is borne out by the T4 slips from the senior pilots at WestJet and the compensation costs the company pays to pilots (if you are a WestJetter, you will have to talk to Finance to get details on that, but the information is available and tracked). The $370K or more T4 that JS quotes for himself is obviously based on quite a bit of overtime.

One other factor is how block time is measured and paid for. I can't find any details related to changes in the new Spirit CBA about moving away from "Block Out Time", defined by Spirit as taxiing at 0.5 knots. This will reduces block time by about 10% on an average 2 hour segment by not paying for pushback and any wait for congestion on the ramp. Spirit also has a no block time padding philosophy so uses a BTR0 of 50%, compared with a BTR0 in the 60 to 70% range for WestJet, pushing to reach the published on time arrival time for Spirit will compress the block time a further 5% or so on a 2 hour segment when comparing BTR0=50 to BTR0=65.

RSU's are discretion of the board, no?

Profit share and Options are contractual I understand, but again can you count on them? Profit share is ultimately a lot of discretion and conditions aren't always conducive to exercising options, I guess we'll see.

Not sure why you're adding in 30 hours to the WS figure in this comparison or splitting hairs on taxi speeds... Are you really getting into block growth to try to narrow your gap? Paid at 50 vs. 70 percentile block is better anyway... more free pay for all the more times you're early.

Additionally, if we're going to get into taxation as a benefit, like options exercised cashless and taxed as a capital gain vs. employment income, maybe you should start talking about the WS ESPP and the amount of taxes paid on that 40%... Or maybe we should bring in US taxes... Or employer (not) paid benefits... I don't think it's relevant to this discusiion.

I think you need to be comparing real money you can always expect to be paid month in, month out.

Anyway, I'll tell you one thing I know, AC widebody Captain with a son down there that upgraded quickly and is pulling in more than him month in month out... Fact is there is no comparison.

The current WestJet compensation is much more based on a high percentage of share and profit share compensation than any other airline I know of at the moment, so it is relevant to look at the whole picture. RSUs are confirmed by the board as are stock options, but were written into individual contracts at a certain percentage of pay (with a Black-Scholes multiplier applied to stock options), I'm assuming that will change with the CBA. Total compensation is the measure of what is earned, not base salary, but very risk adverse people don't seem to understand that and can't look at the whole picture over a 5 or 10 year period.

Taxi speed has nothing to do with the analysis, Spirit up until their labour agreement in Jan this year calculated crew pay based on "Block Out Time", something unique to them, not on actual block time that most airlines use. It was defined as starting when the aircraft was taxiing forward at 0.5 knots, so didn't include the block time from doors closed / off blocks to that initial taxi point in calculating crew pay. I'm not sure if that was removed in their current agreement.

On the block time, I'm not sure what you mean, as it is not a case of being paid to a certain percentile of block time, BTR0 is a measure of hitting the assigned block time, if you are working to a probability of BTR0=50%, then 50% of the time you are going to be below or at the assigned time, 50% above. If BTR0=65%, then 65% of the time you are going to be below or at the assigned time, 35% above. What that means for a given segment block time profile is that there is a distribution (likely either a Poisson or similar to a Normal distribution), of the block times, where BTR0=50 corresponds to nominally 2 hours on a 2 hour block and BTR0=65 corresponds to a longer block time, somewhere around 2 hours and 6 minutes is likely, but dependent on airport and flight characteristics, in this case the scheduled time for a flight when BTR0=50 is used will be 2:00, when BTR0=65 is used will be 2:06.

The US as with pretty well every profession at the current exchange rate will pay more, for pilots on average this pretty well matches the exchange rate differential at the moment, i.e USD $118,406 salary + USD $4,444 bonus for the US; CAD $121,421 salary + CAD $4,553 bonus for Canada, according to ERI salary survey data. If money is the only objective, then a move to the US is probably a wise career decision.

[FL320]

Canada seems to be right in the middle for the G7 countries for average commercial pilot salary, below Japan, US and Germany, but above UK, France and Italy.

Just for your info: Air France first Year FO on 737 or A320 is 100 000 euros and I won’t talk about all their benefits as Canada is far behind France. Even a LCC like Frenchbee pays better than Air Canada..
Just my 2 cents

[Maple_30]

Canada seems to be right in the middle for the G7 countries for average commercial pilot salary, below Japan, US and Germany, but above UK, France and Italy.

Just for your info: Air France first Year FO on 737 or A320 is 100 000 euros and I won’t talk about all their benefits as Canada is far behind France. Even a LCC like Frenchbee pays better than Air Canada..
Just my 2 cents

Sorry but no....
I'm from France and I know many people working at AF / Transavia, this is absolutely not the first year FO pay.
Average after tax salary at AF is 4,000€ 1st year FO.
Transavia France used to be 3500€ after tax and eventually up to 6,000€ after tax a month after year 5. (almost the same as Air France with the new contract now)
100K FO in France is year 5 on a B777. Which is in average 10 years after joining Air France.

The only big advantage of France vs Canada is the paid vacation you get, 42 days at Air France 1st year FO.

French Bee is by far the worst LCC operator in France. Absolutely not a reference. The only big players that are comparable to Air Canada in France are Corsair/Air France/Transavia.

Yes, the average salary in Europe is usually higher for the 1st years, but never forget that for 80% of the operators you have to finance your type rating, and that the training costs ARE WAY MORE expensive!

My 2 cents

[FL320]

Average after tax salary at AF is 4,000€ 1st year FO.

This is base salary. I was talking 100 000 euros per year before tax ..and fact is from the job offer I got from AF
They don’t even make 4000$ net as a base salary at AC first year...not even at year 4! 1st year base pay might be around 2600$/month net if you’re based in Ontario? Wow
What do you get at WS?
Canada is definitely not in the middle of the G7 countries regarding pilot salaries...it is at the end of the list.

but never forget that for 80% of the operators you have to finance your type rating, and that the training costs ARE WAY MORE expensive!

I agree but their first job is on a A320 or 737 and by 25 they are Captains. You don’t have to pay for type ratings here and training is less expensive but how many years of shitty pay flying for shitty operators before you can get the exact same job? It took me 11 years.

[True North]

And the comparison utterly irrelevant.

Maybe. Maybe not... to you. I don't think it's irrelevant, and I didn't bring it into this conversation... but if you're going to make it, make it accurately.

I'm not trying to put anything down, but we need to keep an accurate picture of where we actually stand in terms of pay and compensation in this country.

So why are you comparing yourselves to American carriers?

Again, you may think it's irrelevant, but it is... You're a fool not to consider where we stand among other advanced economies. Do you not think other professionals compare themselves to the relevant world market? Architects? Doctors? Engineers? Even specialized skilled labour?

I hope you CBA does reach equivalent compensation with Spirit/Southwest/Alaska/etc...

Dream on.

I didn't say it. Just trying to be positive to someone else's comment, and not a dickhead. Some people find that difficult, I know...

So anyone who disagrees with you is a dickhead?

You can compare yourself to anyone you want to but that is a fool's game. Architects, doctors, engineers etc are individuals not members of an employee group of hundreds or even thousands. A hospital or architectural firm can possibly afford to pay one individual above market to attract top talent, totally different than a group of thousands.

Tax structure, nav fees, airport landing fees and rents, the list goes on and on. All are structured differently in the US vs Canada. Canada has some of the highest fees in the world. US carriers earn US dollars, Canadian carriers earn Canadian dollars but pay for aircraft in US dollars. The list of differences is endless so any comparison between what a US carrier can afford to pay it's employees vs a Canadian carrier is pointless.

I guarantee you the arbitrator is not comparing WestJet compensation to any US carrier. But you go right ahead.

[aerobod]

Canada is definitely not in the middle of the G7 countries regarding pilot salaries...it is at the end of the list.

Please provide some wide ranging data from a reputable source that looks at the whole market, as opposed to one data point, to demonstrate that opinion is correct. I’ve benchmarked the ERI data against IT disciplines I have familiarity with in several countries and it has been as accurate as any salary data provider. They collect tens of thousands of surveys from employers and employees on a frequent basis across all industries. UK ex-pats I know who are pilots find the Canadian and UK salaries are comparable, which is what the ERI data says in showing the UK just behind Canada in the G7 country average pilot wages (would have been slightly ahead before the Brexit related devaluation of the £).

[FL320]

Easyjet Co Pilots Luton & Gatwick: A320 + Airbus CCQ (A330/40) - 2018/19
(08323)

UK Co Pilots
Permanent contract plus benefits
SFO £74,623 / FO £62,260
Start dates from winter 2018

This is a LCC based in the UK; Westjet is not a LCC but I would say they almost have the same ops. To get a job at WS you would be considered as a SFO by EZY in terms of flight hours. What is 1st Year FO at WS? (i honestly have no idea). Hope it’s more than 74,623$CDN

[altiplano]

So anyone who disagrees with you is a dickhead?

No, I said I was trying to be positive and not come off as a dickhead. I don't see the arbitrator handing down a windfall like Spirit rates, but aerobod said:

I’m sure WestJet will pay a base comparable to Spirit after the CBA is sorted

So to paraphrase, I said: I think you're way off, but I hope they do...

You see, I was trying to not be a dickhead.

We can disagree just fine on it. I think comparing yourself to others next door doing a similar job are fair comparisons, historically we have been comparable, but have fallen far behind over the past 15 years... I get it, you're anti-union, take what you get from management, are happy to settle because they must know best... good luck...

Regarding employee groups... of course doctors in Canada would disagree, their rates are set in negotiations between their respective association and government in this country and they absolutely look at comparable rates in other jurisdictions, not just Canada.

Thinking more about our industry in particular, I wonder where other labour find themselves relative their peers, I bet it's not a 30-40% discount... in fact I bet many are making out better.

[aerobod]

Easyjet Co Pilots Luton & Gatwick: A320 + Airbus CCQ (A330/40) - 2018/19
(08323)

UK Co Pilots
Permanent contract plus benefits
SFO £74,623 / FO £62,260
Start dates from winter 2018

This is a LCC based in the UK; Westjet is not a LCC but I would say they almost have the same ops. To get a job at WS you would be considered as a SFO by EZY in terms of flight hours. What is 1st Year FO at WS? (i honestly have no idea). Hope it’s more than 74,623$CDN

On target earnings at WestJet will be above $75K, depending on hours, assuming no overtime. The Easyjet requirement though is for 500 hours on-type (A320) or 1000 hours on A330/340, there is no 737NG on-type requirement for WestJet FO recruits. Also the Easyjet positions are all contract (12 month’s renewable), with some benefits, but not equivalent to the benefits an employee is likely to receive (for example in the UK no NI, national pension, sick pay or private health plan coverage) and with no employee employment protection.