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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by Bede » Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:14 am

munzil wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:11 pm

And btw, I have an honors degree in Economics, probably well before you were born. You come across as a complete ass with no understanding of the subject you are trying to come across as knowledgable on

Now go back and play with your toys and let the adults talk.
I always love when people post their education on internet fora.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by sicamore » Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:50 am

Bede wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:14 am
I always love when people post their education on internet fora.
Well good for you. You get a gold star for sharing your feelings. Feelings are so good.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by CAL » Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:53 am

..
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by mbav8r » Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:14 am

Soooo, anything about the Swoop demotions and pay?
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by Diadem » Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:02 am

munzil wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:50 pm
I think several people have tried. I for one could not give a toss what you think.

You're just an annoying little twirp that keeps parroting yourself. And, no I'm not going to engage your or your smart comment in reply
Actually, no one has made a fact-based rebuttal; it's all been arguments from authority and "If you're not at least as old as I am, then you're obviously stupid". Stating that you're a senior hasn't convinced me of anything other than that you have dementia.
Someone voluntarily leaving a high-paying job to move to a country where wages are lower shouldn't expect to be paid the same as they were in their previous position. Airlines would rather hire a 20000-hour pilot than one with 2000 hours, but if the former demands twice as much money as the latter, the airlines will hire the latter, because profit is their primary concern. Prove me wrong.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by cjet » Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:21 am

mbav8r wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:14 am
Soooo, anything about the Swoop demotions and pay?


Swoop has until Dec 1st to demote OTS hires. Bid closed last week for upgrades from Westjet. Timeline is tight to get training completed in time but Swoop in not yet flying to USA so crewing issues shouldn’t be a problem.

Cjet
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by DropTanks » Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:42 pm

mbav8r wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:14 am
Soooo, anything about the Swoop demotions and pay?
A handful of them are trainers so they’re training their replacements. Should be done by Dec 1 otherwise they’ll need to give Kaplan a very good reason why they couldn’t do it in time.

As for pay it seems that the company has decided to interpret the pay protection as meaning they continue to get all pay as Captains including climbing scales and improved pay in new contract. This move is to keep the OTS guys from all jumping ship overnight. They are needed right now to train their seniors from WJ. If the company wants to pay them more then so be it. Sets a nice precedent! Although I have a funny feeling that soon after the WJ pilots are all trained up and the OTS trainers are no longer needed the company will say something like “turns out Kaplan meant you’re frozen at $103/hr so we have to do that now, oopsie!”
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by mbav8r » Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:25 pm

DropTanks wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:42 pm
mbav8r wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:14 am
Soooo, anything about the Swoop demotions and pay?
A handful of them are trainers so they’re training their replacements. Should be done by Dec 1 otherwise they’ll need to give Kaplan a very good reason why they couldn’t do it in time.

As for pay it seems that the company has decided to interpret the pay protection as meaning they continue to get all pay as Captains including climbing scales and improved pay in new contract. This move is to keep the OTS guys from all jumping ship overnight. They are needed right now to train their seniors from WJ. If the company wants to pay them more then so be it. Sets a nice precedent! Although I have a funny feeling that soon after the WJ pilots are all trained up and the OTS trainers are no longer needed the company will say something like “turns out Kaplan meant you’re frozen at $103/hr so we have to do that now, oopsie!”
Thanks, one can hope that’s what happens.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by .80@410 » Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:05 pm

The Scabs are too new to understand that the company will tell them whatever is in the companys best interests.
Of course WJ will tell them all is roses and daffodils .

Reality is Kaplan and / or the Dec 31 contract will spell it all out. We can all hope they eat humble pie, but time will tell. Watching them squirm in the right seat is a start. They’ve got 1000 WJ FOs and Encore Captains + FOs ahead of them, some waiting 9 years for a Captains seat. They will never see a LS at WJ before their retirement.
Love + it .

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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by tbaylx » Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:24 am

.80@410 wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:05 pm
The Scabs are too new to understand that the company will tell them whatever is in the companys best interests.
Of course WJ will tell them all is roses and daffodils .

Reality is Kaplan and / or the Dec 31 contract will spell it all out. We can all hope they eat humble pie, but time will tell. Watching them squirm in the right seat is a start. They’ve got 1000 WJ FOs and Encore Captains + FOs ahead of them, some waiting 9 years for a Captains seat. They will never see a LS at WJ before their retirement.
Love + it .

.80
Like I said previously, the OTS hires are the first pilots at WJ to get hired at captain wages from day 1 while they wait 9 years or whatever for an upgrade. The entry level pay at WJ and AC is a barrier to many, the OTS guys have managed to get around that issue. They can afford to be patient for however long it takes. Those that aren't interested in such an arrangement will simply leave and find work elsewhere, there are plenty of operators that are happy to have the level of experience that the OTS pilots bring with them.

Thankfully the pilots coming over from WJ to Swoop are a heck of a lot more professional than the crap we see on Avcanada and are a pleasure to work with.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by Hangry » Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:53 am

Glad to see you “managed” to get around the poor starting pay.

Believe me they hate you. But you are insignificant now so they’ll just deal with with you while they have to. It’s called being professional. Professional like not being a scab.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by Mach1 » Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:11 am

aerobod wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:54 pm

Telling everyone sensitive business material ahead of time became problematic about 5 years ago, with several leaks from different groups (especially middle management and pilot groups). These leaks had the potential to cause the company to be in breach of trading laws if they had spread too far and caused the stock price to change. From a risk assessment, a lot of the information released to a wide employee group in the past was often insider information, but most employees receiving that info were not controlled as insiders (appropriate and specific NDAs and trading restrictions, amongst other things). Over the past number of years anyone receiving sensitive business info has so on a need to know basis and under a signed NDA for that particular project to avoid the risk situation the company had previously been placed in. Any detailed knowledge on Swoop, 787, new loyalty initiatives and other recent projects were controlled in this way, with the majority of employees learning about the project at the same time a press release went out.

From the perspective of using lease returns directly into Swoop, this was definitely a possibility early on, but the economics of the -700 could not hit the business case requirements and there weren't enough -800 lease returns soon enough to meet the business case timelines. The details had to change a lot to make the project viable, after the initial socialisation of the project with key groups early on.
Yeah... except if that were sensitive business material, they would not have told us that the lease returns were the planes going to Swoop in the first place so you can't hide behind that argument in this case. This lie was not told during the early phases of the development of the plan, it was told to us right up to the day they put pink paint on the newest 800 in the fleet.

"I can't discuss that for reason X, Y or Z..." is a perfectly acceptable answer when asked a question. A much better answer than a lie.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by DropTanks » Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:26 am

tbaylx wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:24 am
.80@410 wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:05 pm
The Scabs are too new to understand that the company will tell them whatever is in the companys best interests.
Of course WJ will tell them all is roses and daffodils .

Reality is Kaplan and / or the Dec 31 contract will spell it all out. We can all hope they eat humble pie, but time will tell. Watching them squirm in the right seat is a start. They’ve got 1000 WJ FOs and Encore Captains + FOs ahead of them, some waiting 9 years for a Captains seat. They will never see a LS at WJ before their retirement.
Love + it .

.80
Like I said previously, the OTS hires are the first pilots at WJ to get hired at captain wages from day 1 while they wait 9 years or whatever for an upgrade. The entry level pay at WJ and AC is a barrier to many, the OTS guys have managed to get around that issue. They can afford to be patient for however long it takes. Those that aren't interested in such an arrangement will simply leave and find work elsewhere, there are plenty of operators that are happy to have the level of experience that the OTS pilots bring with them.

Thankfully the pilots coming over from WJ to Swoop are a heck of a lot more professional than the crap we see on Avcanada and are a pleasure to work with.
Yeah 9yr upgrade for WestJetters is like a 15-20yr wait time for OTS Swoopsters with 1000 people above them. Possibly never. Don’t kid yourself dude. There’s absolutely no way management is going to pay 20 or so F/O’s full blown Captain pay for their entire tenure. As I’m sure you’ve heard before from the higher ups it just “doesn’t fit the Swoop business model”. Everything, absolutely everything they’ve done has been to make Swoop the cheapest airline they could and right now the narrative of paying you guys full Captain wage works for them. They can’t have you all quitting overnight. I’ll guarantee that once the dust settles the pay protection will be clarified at $103/hr. Still a massive coup d’etat for you guys and congrats on “managing” to avoid the low starting pay. You’re an inspiration to us all.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by tbaylx » Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:34 am

Hangry wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:53 am
Glad to see you “managed” to get around the poor starting pay.

Believe me they hate you. But you are insignificant now so they’ll just deal with with you while they have to. It’s called being professional. Professional like not being a scab.
I feel sorry for you and the rest of those that go to work hating others. I’m pretty comfortable with the decisions I’ve made and my level of professionalism..especially when compared to a few posters on avcanada.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by True North » Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:00 am

tbaylx wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:34 am
Hangry wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:53 am
Glad to see you “managed” to get around the poor starting pay.

Believe me they hate you. But you are insignificant now so they’ll just deal with with you while they have to. It’s called being professional. Professional like not being a scab.
I feel sorry for you and the rest of those that go to work hating others. I’m pretty comfortable with the decisions I’ve made and my level of professionalism..especially when compared to a few posters on avcanada.
Although I completely disagree with your decision to take advantage of a labour dispute to further your own career, the rest of your statement is bang on. It seems a lot of WestJet pilots forget this is a public forum. The overall impression of the level of professionalism at WestJet has taken a serious hit lately. The general public view airline pilots as highly paid individuals who get to do an exciting job that they love. Right or wrong that is the general perception. There is very little, if any sympathy for pilots moaning about their lot in life and anyone reading this forum will end up with a whole new opinion of pilots. Some of you guys seriously need to grow up and step away from the computer. You are doing yourselves, your company and your profession a major disservice.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by RidersRule » Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:04 pm

DropTanks wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:26 am
tbaylx wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:24 am
.80@410 wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:05 pm
The Scabs are too new to understand that the company will tell them whatever is in the companys best interests.
Of course WJ will tell them all is roses and daffodils .

Reality is Kaplan and / or the Dec 31 contract will spell it all out. We can all hope they eat humble pie, but time will tell. Watching them squirm in the right seat is a start. They’ve got 1000 WJ FOs and Encore Captains + FOs ahead of them, some waiting 9 years for a Captains seat. They will never see a LS at WJ before their retirement.
Love + it .

.80
Like I said previously, the OTS hires are the first pilots at WJ to get hired at captain wages from day 1 while they wait 9 years or whatever for an upgrade. The entry level pay at WJ and AC is a barrier to many, the OTS guys have managed to get around that issue. They can afford to be patient for however long it takes. Those that aren't interested in such an arrangement will simply leave and find work elsewhere, there are plenty of operators that are happy to have the level of experience that the OTS pilots bring with them.

Thankfully the pilots coming over from WJ to Swoop are a heck of a lot more professional than the crap we see on Avcanada and are a pleasure to work with.
Yeah 9yr upgrade for WestJetters is like a 15-20yr wait time for OTS Swoopsters with 1000 people above them. Possibly never. Don’t kid yourself dude. There’s absolutely no way management is going to pay 20 or so F/O’s full blown Captain pay for their entire tenure. As I’m sure you’ve heard before from the higher ups it just “doesn’t fit the Swoop business model”. Everything, absolutely everything they’ve done has been to make Swoop the cheapest airline they could and right now the narrative of paying you guys full Captain wage works for them. They can’t have you all quitting overnight. I’ll guarantee that once the dust settles the pay protection will be clarified at $103/hr. Still a massive coup d’etat for you guys and congrats on “managing” to avoid the low starting pay. You’re an inspiration to us all.
This right here. I don’t care about the OTS guys anymore. I’m happy with where they are. If they continue to get paid what they originally signed on for, doesn’t matter to me. This was about being out of position on a list. This was about flying with eight year FO’s who never even got a shot at that seat.

But back to the pay. From what I hear, they make the Swoop pilots pay for a can of pop. And you think they are going to keep paying FO’s as captains. Just my opinion, but yeah right.

Hosnestly I wish u luck with that. Like I said it doesn’t matter anymore. The main wrong was corrected.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by cloak » Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:12 am

True North wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:00 am
Although I completely disagree with your decision to take advantage of a labour dispute to further your own career, the rest of your statement is bang on. It seems a lot of WestJet pilots forget this is a public forum. The overall impression of the level of professionalism at WestJet has taken a serious hit lately. The general public view airline pilots as highly paid individuals who get to do an exciting job that they love. Right or wrong that is the general perception. There is very little, if any sympathy for pilots moaning about their lot in life and anyone reading this forum will end up with a whole new opinion of pilots. Some of you guys seriously need to grow up and step away from the computer. You are doing yourselves, your company and your profession a major disservice.
I have to echo these sentiments that the image of WestJet pilots, at whatever level it was before, has taken a hit in light of their continued attacks on a few individuals who have set-up a safe operation. Now granted a lot of these ramblings come from other people, including Encore and Jazz, which is another interesting point and simply a case of "do as I say not as I do"! At any rate, it is understandable to disagree with certain decisions and professionally and legally fight it, but cyber bullying only denigrates the individual and the group he represents.

And the problem simply remains. If what they say is true, the source of the problem is in the breakdown of the relationship between WestJet pilots and their leaders. Vilifying a few pilots who responded to an ad and took a legal job does not solve their problems. Much like someone's spouse having an affair. The person can focus all his/her attention on the other person,vilify them and spout profanities, but it does not take away from the fact that their relationship is broken down and even if the other person is removed, the marriage is still not restored. Worse yet, no amount of court-sanctioned ruling is going to restore that marriage either. It takes hard work, and it starts by looking within and being less judgmental and pointing out others' possible shortcomings....otherwise for WestJet pilots the problem lingers on!

On a larger scale this poses the question: Is piloting a profession like lawyers, doctors, or nurses whereby one is recognised for one's previous experience from one company to another; or is it a union-shop-job whereby one progresses based on one's seniority not necessarily merit?
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by Rowdy » Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:04 am

Cloak, I'd disagree.

The general canadian populace does not care. They are almost completely and belligerently uninformed on whats happened. Most that I've spoken to that aren't in the industry don't even know swoop exists.

The ones that do know, are usually union members(non aviation), and they now perceive WJ management and the scabs that took the swoops positions poorly. I don't know a single person who views the westjet pilots in a poor light. Most are sympathetic, especially when informed on what happened. They are however not sympathetic to those that tried to cut the line so to speak.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by mbav8r » Sat Oct 27, 2018 1:55 pm

cloak wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:12 am
True North wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:00 am
Although I completely disagree with your decision to take advantage of a labour dispute to further your own career, the rest of your statement is bang on. It seems a lot of WestJet pilots forget this is a public forum. The overall impression of the level of professionalism at WestJet has taken a serious hit lately. The general public view airline pilots as highly paid individuals who get to do an exciting job that they love. Right or wrong that is the general perception. There is very little, if any sympathy for pilots moaning about their lot in life and anyone reading this forum will end up with a whole new opinion of pilots. Some of you guys seriously need to grow up and step away from the computer. You are doing yourselves, your company and your profession a major disservice.
I have to echo these sentiments that the image of WestJet pilots, at whatever level it was before, has taken a hit in light of their continued attacks on a few individuals who have set-up a safe operation. Now granted a lot of these ramblings come from other people, including Encore and Jazz, which is another interesting point and simply a case of "do as I say not as I do"! At any rate, it is understandable to disagree with certain decisions and professionally and legally fight it, but cyber bullying only denigrates the individual and the group he represents.

And the problem simply remains. If what they say is true, the source of the problem is in the breakdown of the relationship between WestJet pilots and their leaders. Vilifying a few pilots who responded to an ad and took a legal job does not solve their problems. Much like someone's spouse having an affair. The person can focus all his/her attention on the other person,vilify them and spout profanities, but it does not take away from the fact that their relationship is broken down and even if the other person is removed, the marriage is still not restored. Worse yet, no amount of court-sanctioned ruling is going to restore that marriage either. It takes hard work, and it starts by looking within and being less judgmental and pointing out others' possible shortcomings....otherwise for WestJet pilots the problem lingers on!

On a larger scale this poses the question: Is piloting a profession like lawyers, doctors, or nurses whereby one is recognised for one's previous experience from one company to another; or is it a union-shop-job whereby one progresses based on one's seniority not necessarily merit?
I do like to point out hypocrisy when I see it, you say cyber bullying only denigrates the individual and the group he represents just after taking a shot against Encore and Jazz pilots. Which group do you represent and please enlighten me how Jazz pilots took OTS jobs away from another group of pilots, please. The history of Jazz goes back a long way and starting a new operation to go around the union is not part of it, perhaps contemplated by management I’m sure.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by sicamore » Sat Oct 27, 2018 2:06 pm

mbav8r wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 1:55 pm
[LWhich group do you represent and please enlighten me how Jazz pilots took OTS jobs away from another group of pilots, please. The history of Jazz goes back a long way and starting a new operation to go around the union is not part of it, perhaps contemplated by management I’m sure.
Give it a rest. This subject is all over a Canada. Don't be so defensive
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by av8ts » Sun Oct 28, 2018 4:15 am

cloak wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:12 am

On a larger scale this poses the question: Is piloting a profession like lawyers, doctors, or nurses whereby one is recognised for one's previous experience from one company to another; or is it a union-shop-job whereby one progresses based on one's seniority not necessarily merit?
Unfortunately it’s number two, which is what makes the Swoop OTS pilots scabs
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by eyebrow737 » Sun Oct 28, 2018 7:35 am

cloak wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:12 am

On a larger scale this poses the question: Is piloting a profession like lawyers, doctors, or nurses whereby one is recognised for one's previous experience from one company to another; or is it a union-shop-job whereby one progresses based on one's seniority not necessarily merit?

Don't bother cloak, there are too many self depreciating pilots on here who for whatever reason want to argue that our job is unskilled and we are not worthy at all.

Worked all over the world, and will never understand this mentality that seems to thrive here.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by indieadventurer » Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:10 am

eyebrow737 wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 7:35 am
cloak wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:12 am

On a larger scale this poses the question: Is piloting a profession like lawyers, doctors, or nurses whereby one is recognised for one's previous experience from one company to another; or is it a union-shop-job whereby one progresses based on one's seniority not necessarily merit?

Don't bother cloak, there are too many self depreciating pilots on here who for whatever reason want to argue that our job is unskilled and we are not worthy at all.

Worked all over the world, and will never understand this mentality that seems to thrive here.
I have never met a reasonable pilot who would argue that our job is unskilled and that we are not worthy, whatever that means. However, in my own opinion, airline jobs are structured to such a degree that after a few years of experience in the right seat one is, most of the time, ready for the left seat. Any time longer is usually unnecessary in terms on preparation and because of this, experience past this minimum counts for very little and there's no need for it to be recognized from one company to another. This, in contrast to law or medicine, which have countless specialties and one may spend their entire life working and researching in a particular area.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by .80@410 » Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:28 am

tbaylx wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:24 am
.80@410 wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:05 pm
.
Love + it .

.80
Like I said previously, the OTS hires are the first pilots at WJ to get hired at captain wages from day 1 while they wait 9 years or whatever for an upgrade.

Thankfully the pilots coming over from WJ to Swoop are a heck of a lot more professional than the crap we see on Avcanada and are a pleasure to work with.
News flash : 103$ / hour isn’t a Captain wage despite your attempts to screw our industry and drag it down to that. Regardless, you guys have been dealt with appropriately, you are in the correct seat ( 33 days ) and for most of us professionals who don’t like to use the back door to get ahead are content justice has been served . End of story. Enjoy the career FO position. I’m done with this subject. ✌️
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by schnitzel2k3 » Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:02 am

.80@410 wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:28 am
tbaylx wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:24 am
.80@410 wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:05 pm
.
Love + it .

.80
Like I said previously, the OTS hires are the first pilots at WJ to get hired at captain wages from day 1 while they wait 9 years or whatever for an upgrade.

Thankfully the pilots coming over from WJ to Swoop are a heck of a lot more professional than the crap we see on Avcanada and are a pleasure to work with.
News flash : 103$ / hour isn’t a Captain wage despite your attempts to screw our industry and drag it down to that. Regardless, you guys have been dealt with appropriately, you are in the correct seat ( 33 days ) and for most of us professionals who don’t like to use the back door to get ahead are content justice has been served . End of story. Enjoy the career FO position. I’m done with this subject. ✌️
Don't worry Canada Jetlines is opening it's doors next summer and I'm sure those shiny new 37 ratings will be converted them to A320 ratings in a matter of months.

That and Flair is hiring. It may be the end of the Swoopsters at WS but likely not the end of them altogether.

S.
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