Explain please where else I should have gone? Thanks.mbav8r wrote: ↑Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:36 amDid you or did you not have a choice?Lightchop wrote: ↑Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:22 amOh I see you are one of those "You had a choice" Captains. Well, glad I don't have to fly with you.mbav8r wrote: ↑Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:18 pm
Nope, I voted yes to the contract and never held a gun to anyone’s head to accept the new wages, the hope was they wouldn’t be able to attract pilots at those abysmal wages and they would have to raise them.
You see the problem cloak, started with Encore, then Sky Regional lowering the bar, then GGN came along and ate our lunch leaving us no choice but the pilots all 1000+ since 2015 all had a choice.
You could even go further back when WJ started at 55.00 for Captains, were you one, is that why you defend tbaylx?
Seriously, blaming me for your choice is beyond ridiculous, if the pay on offer was the same when I started, I would’ve stayed put in a 704 captain spot, life’s about choices and I’ll second that I’m glad I don’t fly with you either. The chip on your shoulder and reek of entitlement would be obvious.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...
So you had to go Jazz?! There were no other companies around, you couldn't stay in your current job, and you would otherwise have been unemployed?! That's got to be the most ridiculous statement I've ever read on AvCanada; I think that even tops pdw and WeedPro's nonsense
Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...
What he or she said^Diadem wrote: ↑Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:35 amSo you had to go Jazz?! There were no other companies around, you couldn't stay in your current job, and you would otherwise have been unemployed?! That's got to be the most ridiculous statement I've ever read on AvCanada; I think that even tops pdw and WeedPro's nonsense
Heard of supply and demand?
We were in a very tight spot, we voted to strike and suffered the wrath of Rovinescu, would you have voted no to a contract that preserved what we fought for for the pilots still here, giving others a chance to go to AC.
The funny thing is, you think you would have a job at Jazz if we voted down this contract, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind any new flying and what could have been shifted away would have been. Without the first PML and being reduced to the minimum allowed under the existing CPA would’ve meant more stagnation and even possible layoffs.
You chose to come to Jazz but feel free to blame me for your life choices, I don’t regret my choice, do you?
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...
Swoop conditions are too be ruled on by the arbitrator. We won’t know the pay for the contract till after the formal hearing ends December 10th. Apperently Kaplan wants it all ruled on as soon as possible.Mrbobmarly111 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:08 am So funny. Everyone is mad at the Swoop peeps for taking these low paying jobs and "screwing" over the industry. But what did westjet pilots get in the end? The right to go and fly at swoop for the current swoop rates.... lol. What a joke. Let me get this straight.. westjet pilots were mad ots hires accepted flying for crap pay... then pilots at westjet win the right to go and fly there for the same crap pay.... help me understand how that is winning? Plus now that its been decided by a judge westjet will just move more flying to swoop. Clap clap clap. I dont blame the swoop guy for going there. And i definitely dont blame them for leaving..... now excuse me, my thermos is empty and i need more koolaid.
Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...
I agree that seniority in aviation, as it is now, is a relic of the past. It lowers the status of the profession to a "non-specialized" workers. This is not good for the profession. It is much more conducive to better pay and working conditions if there were a hybrid system, seniority (for picking schedule, vacation, etc.) based on date of hire, but pay based on experience in the airline business.
The problem with the B scale at Jazz, Transat, WestJet FOs a few years ago, Sunwing, Air Canada, etc. was that it negotiated to the detriment of the people that weren't there yet, to get a measly 2% increase for the senior guys. And to be fair the senior people cannot faulted too much either, because after years of service they too want to gain a bit of raise, however measly it may be. A big part of the problem is the low entry pay at Air Canada and the airline and the senior pilots don't see a reason to change because there are people that go there. In fairness, no direct-hire pilot at Swoop has done anything new that these pilots haven't done in the past.
While this issue deserves some debate, discussion and correction, it should not be in an immature and irresponsible way of freely calling other people all kind of names not knowing their situation. This is where the internet has done some disservice that great amount of social skills and rules of engagement in debates and discussion have been lost.
The problem with the B scale at Jazz, Transat, WestJet FOs a few years ago, Sunwing, Air Canada, etc. was that it negotiated to the detriment of the people that weren't there yet, to get a measly 2% increase for the senior guys. And to be fair the senior people cannot faulted too much either, because after years of service they too want to gain a bit of raise, however measly it may be. A big part of the problem is the low entry pay at Air Canada and the airline and the senior pilots don't see a reason to change because there are people that go there. In fairness, no direct-hire pilot at Swoop has done anything new that these pilots haven't done in the past.
While this issue deserves some debate, discussion and correction, it should not be in an immature and irresponsible way of freely calling other people all kind of names not knowing their situation. This is where the internet has done some disservice that great amount of social skills and rules of engagement in debates and discussion have been lost.
Last edited by cloak on Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...
Buddy the arbitrator already decided on it. Look it up. It was in the news.RidersRule wrote: ↑Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:44 pmSwoop conditions are too be ruled on by the arbitrator. We won’t know the pay for the contract till after the formal hearing ends December 10th. Apperently Kaplan wants it all ruled on as soon as possible.Mrbobmarly111 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:08 am So funny. Everyone is mad at the Swoop peeps for taking these low paying jobs and "screwing" over the industry. But what did westjet pilots get in the end? The right to go and fly at swoop for the current swoop rates.... lol. What a joke. Let me get this straight.. westjet pilots were mad ots hires accepted flying for crap pay... then pilots at westjet win the right to go and fly there for the same crap pay.... help me understand how that is winning? Plus now that its been decided by a judge westjet will just move more flying to swoop. Clap clap clap. I dont blame the swoop guy for going there. And i definitely dont blame them for leaving..... now excuse me, my thermos is empty and i need more koolaid.
Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...
Maybe you could provide a link to this ruling, so far the only thing I’m aware of are interim rulings until the final arbitration is handed down.Mrbobmarly111 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 28, 2018 3:59 pmBuddy the arbitrator already decided on it. Look it up. It was in the news.RidersRule wrote: ↑Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:44 pmSwoop conditions are too be ruled on by the arbitrator. We won’t know the pay for the contract till after the formal hearing ends December 10th. Apperently Kaplan wants it all ruled on as soon as possible.Mrbobmarly111 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:08 am So funny. Everyone is mad at the Swoop peeps for taking these low paying jobs and "screwing" over the industry. But what did westjet pilots get in the end? The right to go and fly at swoop for the current swoop rates.... lol. What a joke. Let me get this straight.. westjet pilots were mad ots hires accepted flying for crap pay... then pilots at westjet win the right to go and fly there for the same crap pay.... help me understand how that is winning? Plus now that its been decided by a judge westjet will just move more flying to swoop. Clap clap clap. I dont blame the swoop guy for going there. And i definitely dont blame them for leaving..... now excuse me, my thermos is empty and i need more koolaid.
"Stand-by, I'm inverted"
Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...
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Last edited by RidersRule on Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...
Interesting, might want to be careful.RidersRule wrote: ↑Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:08 pm Yeah
Thanks for the chuckle Bob Marley. Nothing has been decided yet regarding Swoop conditions.
Post a link to your info and we’ll tell you how your misreading it.
In fact Mr. Bob Marley,
Avcanada is kinda boring these days and we’re all apart of the same brotherhood, so let’s have some fun. I plan on buying a couple hundred dollar bottle of rum to celebrate our new contract. I’m a glass half full type of guy, and think it’s going to be pretty good. Hey, and if it’s sh!t, I can drown my sorrows.
You stated ...
“then pilots at westjet win the right to go and fly there for the same crap pay...”
That crap pay is $103 an hour. I feel it will be higher then that but have no proof. You feel it will be same and think you have proof.
So here is the bet.
$103 an hour in Kaplan’s ruling for first year Swoop captain, I’ll send you $200 and you buy whatever you want.
Anything more then $103 an hour for first year Swoop captain you send me $200 and I’ll buy my rum.
What say you my friend ...
If YOS has been agreed upon, and assuming no arbitrator is going to impose a 20% + pay increase on a company I can see Westjet/Swoop first year captain wages being exactly that, $103/hour with the caveat that you carry YOS as an FO over to captain position. Then reworking the scales appropriately.
Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...
So you think an arbitrator will overlook the fact that the swoop flying should’ve been done by WJ pilots in the first place.tbaylx wrote: ↑Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:27 pmInteresting, might want to be careful.RidersRule wrote: ↑Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:08 pm Yeah
Thanks for the chuckle Bob Marley. Nothing has been decided yet regarding Swoop conditions.
Post a link to your info and we’ll tell you how your misreading it.
In fact Mr. Bob Marley,
Avcanada is kinda boring these days and we’re all apart of the same brotherhood, so let’s have some fun. I plan on buying a couple hundred dollar bottle of rum to celebrate our new contract. I’m a glass half full type of guy, and think it’s going to be pretty good. Hey, and if it’s sh!t, I can drown my sorrows.
You stated ...
“then pilots at westjet win the right to go and fly there for the same crap pay...”
That crap pay is $103 an hour. I feel it will be higher then that but have no proof. You feel it will be same and think you have proof.
So here is the bet.
$103 an hour in Kaplan’s ruling for first year Swoop captain, I’ll send you $200 and you buy whatever you want.
Anything more then $103 an hour for first year Swoop captain you send me $200 and I’ll buy my rum.
What say you my friend ...
If YOS has been agreed upon, and assuming no arbitrator is going to impose a 20% + pay increase on a company I can see Westjet/Swoop first year captain wages being exactly that, $103/hour with the caveat that you carry YOS as an FO over to captain position. Then reworking the scales appropriately.
"Stand-by, I'm inverted"
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...
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Last edited by RidersRule on Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...
So Tbalyx has moved to Flair.
Hmm. On one hand I’m pleased on the other I suspect that’s a boner move for him personally.
20 bucks says he’d be better off at Swoop after the contract comes out Dec 31st.
That fourth stripe at Flair will certainly help pay the bills - if not it will help prop up his ego.
Glad to hear that he held onto the myth that they were building a new airline right to the end.
That resume of his is looking more and more tragic.
Merry Christmas.
JJJ
Hmm. On one hand I’m pleased on the other I suspect that’s a boner move for him personally.
20 bucks says he’d be better off at Swoop after the contract comes out Dec 31st.
That fourth stripe at Flair will certainly help pay the bills - if not it will help prop up his ego.
Glad to hear that he held onto the myth that they were building a new airline right to the end.
That resume of his is looking more and more tragic.
Merry Christmas.
JJJ
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...
RidersRule wrote: ↑Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:54 pm So here is the bet.
$103 an hour in Kaplan’s ruling for first year Swoop captain, I’ll send you $200 and you buy whatever you want.
Anything more then $103 an hour for first year Swoop captain you send me $200 and I’ll buy my rum.
What say you my friend ...
Travis, I'll take the bet, if you simultaneously take a second bet.RidersRule wrote: ↑Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:54 pm .
.
.
First off, no need for me to be careful.
Second, I’ll place the bet with the first one that wants to take it, but only one. (I can’t afford to lose that much lol)
Honestly it’s all in fun.
You in Tablyx?
Terms: If the WestJet Pilot Seniority List released by Kaplan gives former Encore pilots (who have flowed to WJ) their Encore DOH (to determine their place on the list), I'll give you $400. If the list comes out and the Encore pilots only get their WestJet DOH, with no credit for Encore service, you give me $400.
I suppose there is a thrid possibility that it is some kind of in-between result, but if it is, no one gets any money.
How's that? I think the most you will stand to lose is $200, because I don't think Swoop pay will be $103. I think it will be $115-$120.
What say you?
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...
I love Av canada its completely crazy. I bet you 50 womp womps and ig you consider that bet i also have another bet. But if you dont bet that bet ill bet you a different bet. How about i bet you that if your wrong and you lose your bet that i bet we all just go our separate ways. Unless you bet a different bet that i might agree to.
Anywayssss I have investigated what earlier claim and i concede that I was wrong. It is only an interm decision that the arbitrator decided that swoop pay is at the current rates etc etc.... that being said i have frienda who are part of ALPA negotiating committees at different companies and they say this still spells bad news for swooper poopers. Because if its already been decided by a judge through arbitration "even if only for the short term" when alpa westjet trys to ask for more. The company can say there is already a precedence that the judge sided in their favor. So the company will require alpa give somthing else up to increase the cureent pay.
Regardless its a huge goat show
Anywayssss I have investigated what earlier claim and i concede that I was wrong. It is only an interm decision that the arbitrator decided that swoop pay is at the current rates etc etc.... that being said i have frienda who are part of ALPA negotiating committees at different companies and they say this still spells bad news for swooper poopers. Because if its already been decided by a judge through arbitration "even if only for the short term" when alpa westjet trys to ask for more. The company can say there is already a precedence that the judge sided in their favor. So the company will require alpa give somthing else up to increase the cureent pay.
Regardless its a huge goat show
Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...
It is clear that the MEC leadership (at least the previous one) had made a personal vendetta against a handful of pilots as opposed to focusing on securing a great deal. They sold "revenge" as the center piece of their tactic to the membership and in the process have given significant bargaining capital to "punt" as you say, a handful of guys. Further, they tried in vain to turn pay protection into pay freeze, again losing more bargaining capital and good will. Focusing the attention in the wrong places is not without cost and the end result will undoubtedly fall short.Rezy wrote: ↑Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:26 pmConceded 6 or 7 goals? How could you possibly know that? There isn’t a contract in place yet! So you are just posturing. ALPA is laser focused on the formal arbitration arguments coming up in early December and there haven’t been any concecessions.cloak wrote: ↑Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:46 pm It's really pathetic and immature how some keep going on about this. Theirs is the example of a team that is so focused on who they perceive as a "Maradona" (few direct-hire pilots) that they have lost focus on important issues and conceded 6 or 7 goals without even turning around to notice it!!
Scope is by far the most important part of a contract and ALPA protected it for all WJ pilots.
Instead, if they were focused on negotiations, they would have been able to utilize the situation to the advantage of the group, even if acquiescing to few captain positions (with freezes and restriction in movements) to secure much greater gains in return. In the process, they would have also won the hearts and minds so to speak and been an active partner and an example to management in restoring the good culture and name of the company. They would have also fulfilled their fiduciary duty to the OTS pilots, as was ordered by Kaplan, to be their representatives too.
In retrospect, current conditions could have been achieved a long time ago, where interested pilots from both WestJet and Encore could have joined Swoop under interim conditions (initially better than current conditions) pending the final results after negotiations, mediation, arbitration. It would have most certainly been retroactive and more than likely better, minimizing direct hiring, if at all, and avoiding altogether strike threats, loss of bookings and profits, etc.
ALPA's approach has been to prevent inside movement and ban outside hiring. This is the example of an airline that plans to be profitable by bankrupting competition, which as we all know is not very effective. This is a confrontational and divisive approach that is not worthy of a union for a specialized workforce. Its approach should not be based on issuing bans on pilots that are not even its members and putting restrictions on its own members, rather it ought to be founded in building consensus and bringing its members in a very small world closer together.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...
I’ll take that as a no...Mrbobmarly111 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:12 am I love Av canada its completely crazy. I bet you 50 womp womps and ig you consider that bet i also have another bet. But if you dont bet that bet ill bet you a different bet. How about i bet you that if your wrong and you lose your bet that i bet we all just go our separate ways. Unless you bet a different bet that i might agree to.
Anywayssss I have investigated what earlier claim and i concede that I was wrong. It is only an interm decision that the arbitrator decided that swoop pay is at the current rates etc etc.... that being said i have frienda who are part of ALPA negotiating committees at different companies and they say this still spells bad news for swooper poopers. Because if its already been decided by a judge through arbitration "even if only for the short term" when alpa westjet trys to ask for more. The company can say there is already a precedence that the judge sided in their favor. So the company will require alpa give somthing else up to increase the cureent pay.
Regardless its a huge goat show
Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...
Cloak,
Regarding your “retrospect” comment.
The only way we could have done the flying on an interim basis was if the Union agreed to sacrifice rights under the labour code.
That was a term set by the company.
Let’s see - give up bargaining power to fly Swoop under interim conditions then bargain without any power???
The union told the company to shove it.
Cheers.
JJJ
Regarding your “retrospect” comment.
The only way we could have done the flying on an interim basis was if the Union agreed to sacrifice rights under the labour code.
That was a term set by the company.
Let’s see - give up bargaining power to fly Swoop under interim conditions then bargain without any power???
The union told the company to shove it.
Cheers.
JJJ
Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...
That's unlikely. ALPA's approach to negotiations was to force an outcome by limitations and bans. By focusing on and vilifying people, pilots or executives, rather than focusing on process. Focusing on people is the worst approach in negotiations as it is divisive, bears little fruit, and makes for very long recovery to unity. Focusing on process is not divisive at all, allows for graceful change of course, bears the most fruits and leads to building unity.