China_CAAC's Merged Threads

Discuss topics relating to Westjet.

Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog

Post Reply
The Tenth Man
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 345
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:12 pm

Re: ALPA Archives: 1956 Seniority Policy Origin

Post by The Tenth Man »

I'm sorry, that was rude. I apologize.

To your point, whatever the MEC's "say" means nothing. They are essentially political organizations and therefore their utterances have the same believeability as any other politician's "facts". When you have a copy of a LOU in your hand that somehow, magically, like pixie dust, allows a person to usurp someone else's property, i.e. their contractually guaranteed seniority rights, then you should find some relief. For a bit. Any possible solution that restores what Encore pilots had under the WPDL will by necessity violate ALPA policy. And that, is where the show stops.

I suspect, without having any information other than what you have mentioned, is that political cover can be had by ALPA if they can misdirect blame for a failure to deliver the WPDL doppelganger.

On WJ's part, the only way it could sign such an LOU is to have ALPA indemnify it against any and all losses suffered by it if a court or the CIRB reversed the LOU based on a successful attack on it by an OTS pilot. Meaning, if it were to be reversed, the ALPA members of WJE and perhaps WJ would be levied by ALPA to cover WJ's losses.

If indeed an LOU has been submitted to WJ for its consideration, the clock has started ticking for OTS pilots. The 90 day window for a Duty of Fair Representation claim with the CIRB starts ticking the moment a damaged party learns of the act alleged to have caused the damage. A Breach of Contract claim in civil court would still be an option, but a DFR claim is much simpler: fill out a form.

Capt Brian Woodley learned the hard way about the 90 day limitation in his CIRB ULP claim here.


28 The first preliminary issue before the Board deals with the many dates put forward by the complainants as the operative one that begins the so-called “ticking of the 90-day clock” for filing a complaint. To be timely, the circumstances giving rise to this complaint must have come to the complainants’ attention on or after March 13, 1997, unless the Board decides to extend the time limit pursuant to section 16(m.1) of the Code.


29 The complainants sought to establish timeliness by linking a series of events that ultimately suggest a continuing basis for their complaint, the first of which is the negotiation of the Quebec Accord. According to the documents filed with the Board by the complainants, they were advised by Captain Al Carmichael, CRA MEC Chairman, on or about November 25, 1996, about the existence of the Quebec Accord through the following email:


CALPA CONVENTION:

The CALPA Convention has now drawn to a close in YQB; there have been significant developments in a number of concerns to our pilot group.



The first was the results of the move to ALPA. After extensive debate in which your MEC was quite active, the Convention Delegates approved balloting members on the ALPA merger document, with a simple majority as the threshold for implementation. The results of the secret roll call ballot was near 90% in favour of ALPA. The deadline for returning your ballot on this issue has been delayed, though it MUST Be postmarked 02 January 1997 or earlier to be valid. I have received calls from quite a few pilots concerned that they did not get ballots on the 10% poll. If you want to exercise your democratic right to vote, you must have your correct address at CALPA HQ’s. If you have any problems, call them at 1‑800‑561‑9576.



CAI / CRA MEETING:

The second development was a joint MEC Meeting between CAI and CRA that explored the issues surrounding scope, merger, 10%, and third-tier erosion, to name a few. An ad hoc committee was struck to study the merger item, and after in-depth discussion, an accord was reached that forms a working document on which to build an agreement. This document has been entered into without prejudice, and in the event that a final agreement is reached, you will be balloted. There will be base meetings in the near future to discuss what the agreement contains, should we be successful; at this point talks are ongoing.



NEGOTIATIONS:

Thirdly, we are standing by to negotiate with the Company during the last week of November. To say that the situation is fluid is to understate the obvious. Your MEC will use all available means to pass the facts on to you as this week progresses, and most likely by the time you read or hear something, events will have overtaken us and the situation will change again. You MEC is counting on your support in this most critical period; please take the time to ensure that you will be able to participate in the ratification ballot. [sic]



30 At the hearing, the complainants stated:


59. In late November, 1996, the Complainants Woodley and Morgan heard rumours that a non-binding working document had been reached by the CRA and CAI MEC’s at the November, 1996 CALPA Convention, that CRA pilots would “flow through” to the bottom of the CAI seniority list and that this document was to be used as a basis to build an agreement. They also saw a CRA newsletter dated November 25, 1996, which confirmed that an accord concerning seniority merger had been reached in the form of a working document that was said to be without prejudice and which, once final agreement had been reached, would be voted on by the CRA pilots. The Complainants were otherwise unaware of the terms of the document, nor did they obtain a copy of the Quebec Accord until July 18, 1997, when they received the Respondent Union’s response to their Complaints.


31 Therefore, by their own admission, the complainants were informed of the existence of the Quebec Accord as early as November 1996. This fact on its own makes any complaint clearly untimely. In order to bring this part of the complaint within the confines of the 90-day requirement, the complainants have linked it to the CRA pilots’ seniority and transfer rights negotiated in the 1997 collective agreement and ultimately to the filing of grievances in March 1997.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by The Tenth Man on Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:10 pm, edited 3 times in total.
The Tenth Man
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 345
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:12 pm

Re: ALPA Archives: 1956 Seniority Policy Origin

Post by The Tenth Man »

goingnowherefast wrote: Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:25 pm Many other ALPA companies have upgrade requirements beyond DOH and seniority. These are signed collective agreements that have been approved and in place for years.
The devil is in the details.
---------- ADS -----------
 
The Tenth Man
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 345
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:12 pm

Re: ALPA Archives: 1956 Seniority Policy Origin

Post by The Tenth Man »

More details on the "Quebec Accord", the informal CALPA policy that Captain Woodley took issue with can be found in this case here.
17 The second group of applicants are 33 so-called “off the street” (OTS) pilots at CAIL who were hired between 1997 and 1999, but who have no employment history at CRA. In asserting their rights, these OTS pilots challenge the informal application that was made by CAIL of an internal union agreement known as the “Quebec Accord.” These pilots argue that the application of the Quebec Accord contravenes the CAIL collective agreement by giving all flow-through CRA pilots more rights than OTS pilots who have a prior date of hire. They state that the CAIL agreement provides that pilots are ranked on the seniority list according to the date of hire and that no distinction is made between so-called CRA flow-through pilots and new hires. However, through an informal practice, CAIL gave all CRA pilots it hired a higher seniority ranking than them. Their position is that the Keller award favours former CRA pilots who were illegally ranked ahead of them on the CAIL seniority list, without putting forth any reasons for not respecting their contractual seniority rights.
---------- ADS -----------
 
The Tenth Man
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 345
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:12 pm

Re: ALPA Archives: 1956 Seniority Policy Origin

Post by The Tenth Man »

In reviewing the documentation, I discovered an error I have made. The policy on seniority applicability, seniority definition, and seniority list construction is not a creation of the ALPA Executive Board, it is actually a resolution of the ALPA Board of Directors, which is the highest governing body in ALPA. In the policy manuals and administrative manuals in my possession, I conflated the origin statement of "Board" with "Executive Board".

There is no change in the responsibility of the President of ALPA "to comply with and advance the policies of the Association", and the MEC Chairman to further and implement "the policies of the Board of Directors..."

Attached is the original BOD resolution in 1956, the seniority section from the 1967 ALPA policy manual, and the 2017 ALPA Administrative Manual section on seniority.
ALPA_1956_BOD_Resolution_Seniority_Definition_resize.jpg
ALPA_1956_BOD_Resolution_Seniority_Definition_resize.jpg (1.44 MiB) Viewed 1592 times
ALPA_1956_Seniority_Policy.jpg
ALPA_1956_Seniority_Policy.jpg (601.7 KiB) Viewed 1592 times
ALPA_Administrative_Manual_Section_40-23-24-page-002.jpg
ALPA_Administrative_Manual_Section_40-23-24-page-002.jpg (440.15 KiB) Viewed 1592 times
---------- ADS -----------
 
The Tenth Man
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 345
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:12 pm

Re: ALPA Archives: 1956 Seniority Policy Origin

Post by The Tenth Man »

It is interesting to note that paragraph (b) of Seniority - General originally said:

"When two or more pilots are employed on the same date, they shall be placed on such seniority list according to their age, i.e. the oldest pilot shall receive the lowest number."

At some point after the 1967 policy booklet publication, the sentence was amended to read:

"...the oldest pilot shall receive the lowest number, except where prohibited by law."

Discrimination on the basis of age is now against the law in both the USA and in Canada, which explains why typically a lottery or test results are used to determine seniority within a class of new hires.
---------- ADS -----------
 
tbayav8er
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 193
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:47 pm

Re: ALPA Archives: 1956 Seniority Policy Origin

Post by tbayav8er »

Too much feeding. We've created a monster!
---------- ADS -----------
 
Alpa Male
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:13 am

Re: ALPA Archives: 1956 Seniority Policy Origin

Post by Alpa Male »

John, first I would like to thank you for all your hard work on this issue. I wholeheartedly agree with your findings; the "one list" is a blatant violation of ALPA constitution and bylaws. The one list is a product of a representational organization that was way out of their depth. A result, of what you call, the WJPA's "good intentions." Well, the road to hell's paved in good intentions. The one list is a bloody mess and only getting worse. Like you, I have no dogs in this fight - I've been here too long to feel any real effect from the aftermath. I'm just counting my days to retirement, however, like you, I want to see our constitutions and bylaws upheld.

I never voted in favor of the one list. I always felt it was a fleece job, created by the corporation and perpetuated by WJPA minions. The only purpose of the one list was to attract pilots to a start-up regional, which refused to offer proper wages and working conditions to their pilots. Nothing more. No, "one pilot, one list" or "no little brother" bullsh!t! The WJPA sold us based on feelings and nonsensical rhetoric, instead of facts, research, and DFR. Control the narrative was the WJPA's mantra - they would practically chant that statement in unison while behind closed doors.

I spoke with WJPA execs about this many times. I would interrupt their sanctimonious celebrations of "we've done something no other pilot union could do" to ask "why do you think NO OTHER pilot union would do this??? Have we vetted this properly?" However, like anyone that spoke against their oppression and company controlled mandate, they would respond with insults and accusations of paranoia and conspiracy.

They spoke as if we cracked some code that no other union could comprehend. Like we were the Steve Jobs of aviation while everyone else was stealing our secrets. The arrogance.

Well, thankfully, your research has uncovered information that will change everything. Thank you!

You face a great deal of criticism here but believe me; there's a great many of us listening and supporting your agenda.

Keep up the good work!
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by Alpa Male on Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
cloak
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 432
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:08 pm

Re: ALPA Archives: 1956 Seniority Policy Origin

Post by cloak »

Alpa Male wrote: Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:48 pm ... The only purpose of the one list was to attract pilots to a start-up regional, which refused to offer proper wages and working conditions to their pilots. Nothing more...
Good point.
---------- ADS -----------
 
The Tenth Man
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 345
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:12 pm

Re: LOU Proposal Nov 2, 2018

Post by The Tenth Man »

I remind you of the Oath that the President of ALPA swears upon taking office:

"I hereby pledge on my honor to accept the responsibilities of this office and perform the attendant duties to the best of my ability; to uphold faithfully the Constitution and By-Laws of the Air Line Pilots Association; to comply with and advance the policies of the Association; to bear true allegiance to and uphold the principles of the Air Line Pilots Association and conduct myself and this office in such a manner so as to bring credit to the Association, its members and the airline piloting profession."

Any LOU that is negotiated and accepted between ALPA and WJ must bear the signature of the President of ALPA prior to it becoming appended to the CBA. The President would have to violate his sworn oath (because of 62 year old seniority policy) in order to sign the LOU that the MEC proposed on November 2, 2018, and doing so would be a breach of the Constitution. That is, if the LOU actually proposes to restore the expecations of WJE pilots with respect to their ability to bid for upgrade, base, and aircraft type. Perhaps the LOU does not do that and that is why the MEC believes the agreement to be legal. Perhaps the LOU only reserves a number of spots on the bottom of the WestJet Pilot Seniority List for future flowthrough pilots, making it a kind of "One List - Lite".
---------- ADS -----------
 
bose
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 62
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2005 9:17 pm

Re: ALPA Archives: 1956 Seniority Policy Origin

Post by bose »

John

Your style of grammar and punctuation provides an obvious fingerprint.

Next time you create an alter-ego for the 23rd time (Alpa Male), perhaps switch things up a bit. :idea:

Creating a fictitious username to boast and self congratulate yourself?!.....perhaps your 24th could be named Trump. :oops:
---------- ADS -----------
 
Alpa Male
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:13 am

Re: ALPA Archives: 1956 Seniority Policy Origin

Post by Alpa Male »

.
---------- ADS -----------
 
jjj
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 746
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2004 12:53 am

Re: LOU Proposal Nov 2, 2018

Post by jjj »

Some thoughts...

I read the ALPA constitution years ago when this mess started shortly after the demise of the WPPA.

Some of the policies you mention John caught my eyes as well and I crapped myself.

I only signed on with ALPA after the WJPA committed suicide full knowing there are a few things I didn't like with the constitution.

I accept that there is chance for some fall out vis a vis the one list. I'm ok with that because if we were still under WJPA we would be in a far worse place and I guarantee that you had a pay cut coming as that was exactly what was being spouted from the WJPA and the rest of Len's army. Under the WJPA issues of base and seniority would only get messier and messier over time. We already have pilots holding bases out of seniority for FOs. What? Yes, the company needs help and ALPA will clean up the mess at least going forward.

You've made your point John with chapter and verse. Let's see what rolls out Dec 31st and let's see if the creative minds find a way to make everyone whole.

In all of this mess there is one thing that equally serves the interests of the pilots and the corporation - the one list.

Have a good new year John.

JJJ
---------- ADS -----------
 
The Tenth Man
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 345
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:12 pm

Re: LOU Proposal Nov 2, 2018

Post by The Tenth Man »

Amen brother. I think I'll take the bottom half of the month off and head to Arizona and get some air.

I hope someone can sort all of this out.

Peace out.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Diadem
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 899
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:16 pm
Location: A sigma left of the top of the bell curve

Re: LOU Proposal Nov 2, 2018

Post by Diadem »

I'm posting the following on every thread in which John Swallow has raised the issue of seniority at ALPA, because it's pretty devastating to his "case":
I don't know why I didn't think to actually do it earlier, but I finally decided to stop taking Mr Swallow at his word that the references he was posting were correct, and actually look up the documents he's claiming make the One List "impossible". I thought it was strange that he was contacting the ALPA archivist and getting documents from 1956, but it turns out the reason he had to do that is because those documents are archived and no longer relevant. As an ALPA member, I those docs at my fingertips, whereas Mr Swallow wouldn't be privy to such info. Perhaps he hoped that if he bombarded us with screenshots, that we wouldn't take the time to actually look it up.
Mr Swallow asserts that the ALPA constitution of 1956 and Merger Policy require that all seniority be based on date-of-hire, and that those are the only sources of guidance that would be relevant to the current negotiations. It turns out that the ALPA constitution has been updated at least eleven times since 1956, with the most recent version dated Oct 18, 2018. The constitution itself doesn't actually have any guidance regarding seniority lists of any kind, so I looked at the Merger Policy, since Mr Swallow thinks it's the ultimate guide to forming a seniority list. This document was last updated Apr 30, 2009, and now states the following:
4. Seniority List Integration - Negotiations
(c) In cases where one or more parties to the merger has flight deck crew members with grandfather or similar special seniority rights that are limited as to job classification or status within the flight deck crew, the merger representatives shall commence efforts to arrive at a mutually satisfactory method of integration and compilation of such separate special seniority lists as may be necessary and appropriate to preserve and protect such rights in addition to the flight deck crew seniority list.
In addition, ALPA released an information sheet to explain this change in layman's terms: ALPA merger policy calls for the fair and equitable integration of seniority lists. Under the new policy, merger representatives are encouraged to consider themselves primarily as negotiators who should make a strong and focused effort to resolve seniority integration issues, with mediation and final binding arbitration mandated on unresolved issues. As the Committee evaluated the old policy, it became clear that the factors for seniority list integration (SLI) had become a source of controversy. The new policy states that the factors that must be considered in constructing a fair and equitable integrated seniority list, in no particular order and with no particular weight, now include but are not limited to career expectations, longevity, and status and category. The new merger policy mandates that the merger representatives, mediators, and arbitrators must consider these factors when constructing a seniority list; however, they are also free to consider other factors as they deem appropriate."
ALPA addressed Mr Swallow's concerns a decade ago. The constitution he quotes is 52 years out of date. The LEC reps, MEC reps, and ALPA president are not violating any bylaws. I'm not sure Mr Swallow will know what this means, but the policies he's quoting have been superceded. The OTS pilots have no grounds for a complaint to the CIRB.
END OF STORY. CASE CLOSED.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Diadem
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 899
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:16 pm
Location: A sigma left of the top of the bell curve

Re: ALPA Archives: 1956 Seniority Policy Origin

Post by Diadem »

I'm posting the following on every thread in which John Swallow has raised the issue of seniority at ALPA, because it's pretty devastating to his "case":
I don't know why I didn't think to actually do it earlier, but I finally decided to stop taking Mr Swallow at his word that the references he was posting were correct, and actually look up the documents he's claiming make the One List "impossible". I thought it was strange that he was contacting the ALPA archivist and getting documents from 1956, but it turns out the reason he had to do that is because those documents are archived and no longer relevant. As an ALPA member, I those docs at my fingertips, whereas Mr Swallow wouldn't be privy to such info. Perhaps he hoped that if he bombarded us with screenshots, that we wouldn't take the time to actually look it up.
Mr Swallow asserts that the ALPA constitution of 1956 and Merger Policy require that all seniority be based on date-of-hire, and that those are the only sources of guidance that would be relevant to the current negotiations. It turns out that the ALPA constitution has been updated at least eleven times since 1956, with the most recent version dated Oct 18, 2018. The constitution itself doesn't actually have any guidance regarding seniority lists of any kind, so I looked at the Merger Policy, since Mr Swallow thinks it's the ultimate guide to forming a seniority list. This document was last updated Apr 30, 2009, and now states the following:
4. Seniority List Integration - Negotiations
(c) In cases where one or more parties to the merger has flight deck crew members with grandfather or similar special seniority rights that are limited as to job classification or status within the flight deck crew, the merger representatives shall commence efforts to arrive at a mutually satisfactory method of integration and compilation of such separate special seniority lists as may be necessary and appropriate to preserve and protect such rights in addition to the flight deck crew seniority list.
In addition, ALPA released an information sheet to explain this change in layman's terms: ALPA merger policy calls for the fair and equitable integration of seniority lists. Under the new policy, merger representatives are encouraged to consider themselves primarily as negotiators who should make a strong and focused effort to resolve seniority integration issues, with mediation and final binding arbitration mandated on unresolved issues. As the Committee evaluated the old policy, it became clear that the factors for seniority list integration (SLI) had become a source of controversy. The new policy states that the factors that must be considered in constructing a fair and equitable integrated seniority list, in no particular order and with no particular weight, now include but are not limited to career expectations, longevity, and status and category. The new merger policy mandates that the merger representatives, mediators, and arbitrators must consider these factors when constructing a seniority list; however, they are also free to consider other factors as they deem appropriate."
ALPA addressed Mr Swallow's concerns a decade ago. The constitution he quotes is 52 years out of date. The LEC reps, MEC reps, and ALPA president are not violating any bylaws. I'm not sure Mr Swallow will know what this means, but the policies he's quoting have been superceded. The OTS pilots have no grounds for a complaint to the CIRB.
END OF STORY. CASE CLOSED.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Diadem
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 899
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:16 pm
Location: A sigma left of the top of the bell curve

Re: Poll: The One List under ALPA? (53 votes cast)

Post by Diadem »

I'm posting the following on every thread in which John Swallow has raised the issue of seniority at ALPA, because it's pretty devastating to his "case":
I don't know why I didn't think to actually do it earlier, but I finally decided to stop taking Mr Swallow at his word that the references he was posting were correct, and actually look up the documents he's claiming make the One List "impossible". I thought it was strange that he was contacting the ALPA archivist and getting documents from 1956, but it turns out the reason he had to do that is because those documents are archived and no longer relevant. As an ALPA member, I those docs at my fingertips, whereas Mr Swallow wouldn't be privy to such info. Perhaps he hoped that if he bombarded us with screenshots, that we wouldn't take the time to actually look it up.
Mr Swallow asserts that the ALPA constitution of 1956 and Merger Policy require that all seniority be based on date-of-hire, and that those are the only sources of guidance that would be relevant to the current negotiations. It turns out that the ALPA constitution has been updated at least eleven times since 1956, with the most recent version dated Oct 18, 2018. The constitution itself doesn't actually have any guidance regarding seniority lists of any kind, so I looked at the Merger Policy, since Mr Swallow thinks it's the ultimate guide to forming a seniority list. This document was last updated Apr 30, 2009, and now states the following:
4. Seniority List Integration - Negotiations
(c) In cases where one or more parties to the merger has flight deck crew members with grandfather or similar special seniority rights that are limited as to job classification or status within the flight deck crew, the merger representatives shall commence efforts to arrive at a mutually satisfactory method of integration and compilation of such separate special seniority lists as may be necessary and appropriate to preserve and protect such rights in addition to the flight deck crew seniority list.
In addition, ALPA released an information sheet to explain this change in layman's terms: ALPA merger policy calls for the fair and equitable integration of seniority lists. Under the new policy, merger representatives are encouraged to consider themselves primarily as negotiators who should make a strong and focused effort to resolve seniority integration issues, with mediation and final binding arbitration mandated on unresolved issues. As the Committee evaluated the old policy, it became clear that the factors for seniority list integration (SLI) had become a source of controversy. The new policy states that the factors that must be considered in constructing a fair and equitable integrated seniority list, in no particular order and with no particular weight, now include but are not limited to career expectations, longevity, and status and category. The new merger policy mandates that the merger representatives, mediators, and arbitrators must consider these factors when constructing a seniority list; however, they are also free to consider other factors as they deem appropriate."
ALPA addressed Mr Swallow's concerns a decade ago. The constitution he quotes is 52 years out of date. The LEC reps, MEC reps, and ALPA president are not violating any bylaws. I'm not sure Mr Swallow will know what this means, but the policies he's quoting have been superceded. The OTS pilots have no grounds for a complaint to the CIRB.
END OF STORY. CASE CLOSED.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Diadem
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 899
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:16 pm
Location: A sigma left of the top of the bell curve

Re: The End of the WPDL Confirmed

Post by Diadem »

I'm posting the following on every thread in which John Swallow has raised the issue of seniority at ALPA, because it's pretty devastating to his "case":
I don't know why I didn't think to actually do it earlier, but I finally decided to stop taking Mr Swallow at his word that the references he was posting were correct, and actually look up the documents he's claiming make the One List "impossible". I thought it was strange that he was contacting the ALPA archivist and getting documents from 1956, but it turns out the reason he had to do that is because those documents are archived and no longer relevant. As an ALPA member, I those docs at my fingertips, whereas Mr Swallow wouldn't be privy to such info. Perhaps he hoped that if he bombarded us with screenshots, that we wouldn't take the time to actually look it up.
Mr Swallow asserts that the ALPA constitution of 1956 and Merger Policy require that all seniority be based on date-of-hire, and that those are the only sources of guidance that would be relevant to the current negotiations. It turns out that the ALPA constitution has been updated at least eleven times since 1956, with the most recent version dated Oct 18, 2018. The constitution itself doesn't actually have any guidance regarding seniority lists of any kind, so I looked at the Merger Policy, since Mr Swallow thinks it's the ultimate guide to forming a seniority list. This document was last updated Apr 30, 2009, and now states the following:
4. Seniority List Integration - Negotiations
(c) In cases where one or more parties to the merger has flight deck crew members with grandfather or similar special seniority rights that are limited as to job classification or status within the flight deck crew, the merger representatives shall commence efforts to arrive at a mutually satisfactory method of integration and compilation of such separate special seniority lists as may be necessary and appropriate to preserve and protect such rights in addition to the flight deck crew seniority list.
In addition, ALPA released an information sheet to explain this change in layman's terms: ALPA merger policy calls for the fair and equitable integration of seniority lists. Under the new policy, merger representatives are encouraged to consider themselves primarily as negotiators who should make a strong and focused effort to resolve seniority integration issues, with mediation and final binding arbitration mandated on unresolved issues. As the Committee evaluated the old policy, it became clear that the factors for seniority list integration (SLI) had become a source of controversy. The new policy states that the factors that must be considered in constructing a fair and equitable integrated seniority list, in no particular order and with no particular weight, now include but are not limited to career expectations, longevity, and status and category. The new merger policy mandates that the merger representatives, mediators, and arbitrators must consider these factors when constructing a seniority list; however, they are also free to consider other factors as they deem appropriate."
ALPA addressed Mr Swallow's concerns a decade ago. The constitution he quotes is 52 years out of date. The LEC reps, MEC reps, and ALPA president are not violating any bylaws. I'm not sure Mr Swallow will know what this means, but the policies he's quoting have been superceded. The OTS pilots have no grounds for a complaint to the CIRB.
END OF STORY. CASE CLOSED.
---------- ADS -----------
 
The Tenth Man
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 345
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:12 pm

Re: The End of the WPDL Confirmed

Post by The Tenth Man »

I wish you were right.
---------- ADS -----------
 
The Tenth Man
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 345
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:12 pm

Re: LOU Proposal Nov 2, 2018

Post by The Tenth Man »

Okay. You believe you have addressed the Breach of Contract issue, and I respect your attempt. How would you address the Duty of Fair Representation issue?
---------- ADS -----------
 
The Tenth Man
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 345
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:12 pm

Re: ALPA Archives: 1956 Seniority Policy Origin

Post by The Tenth Man »

Diadem wrote: Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:42 pm ...The constitution itself doesn't actually have any guidance regarding seniority lists of any kind, so I looked at the Merger Policy, since Mr Swallow thinks it's the ultimate guide to forming a seniority list...
Hi Diadem, I have never once said that the Merger Policy was the ultimate guide to forming a seniority list. The Merger Policy is not where ALPA's guidance is found regarding seniority list construction. Where you need to look is in the policies issued by the Board of Directors. In 1956, the policy was first enabled via resolution at the Fourteenth BOD Convention (see attachment). The Policy Manual in my possession from 1967 shows the identical seniority passages (see attachment) on page 37. Currently you can find the same passages located in Section 40 of the Administrative Manual (see attachment).
ALPA_1956_BOD_Resolution_Seniority_Definition_resize.jpg
ALPA_1956_BOD_Resolution_Seniority_Definition_resize.jpg (1.44 MiB) Viewed 1240 times
ALPA_1967_Policy_Manual_Seniority_Definition.jpg
ALPA_1967_Policy_Manual_Seniority_Definition.jpg (601.7 KiB) Viewed 1240 times
ALPA_Administrative_Manual_Section_40-23-24-page-002.jpg
ALPA_Administrative_Manual_Section_40-23-24-page-002.jpg (440.15 KiB) Viewed 1240 times
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “WestJet”