China_CAAC's Merged Threads

[Legacy]

Lol true

[rudder]

There is nothing illegal in having a provision in the collective agreement that permits a filling of a vacancy by a pilot not in the existing certified bargaining unit.

Air Ontario had a provision in the 1990’s that allowed ANY Air Canada Regional pilot to bid for ANY vacancy at Air Ontario and get full credit for seniority and service for all purposes. In effect - to parachute in using AC Regional DOH. Several pilots did so and there were no legal challenges by Air Ontario pilots.

Air Canada also at one time allowed ACR pilots to fill vacancies at AC with reserved seniority numbers (not ACR DOH).

Having said that, what comes of the WPDL is up to the WJ pilots.

[DropTanks]

.

[KAG]

Weed, (js) you sound manic, time to go back on your meds.

[WeedPro2000]

Oh yeah, I forgot to add to my original post the important fact that seniority, section 22 in the coming CBA, has already been negotiated, for the most part, by ALPA, prior to the start of arbitration. In the ALPA Special Update of May 26, the following excerpt is lifted. Aside from the fact that ALPA managed to get sweet f@ck all done since they arrived on property in May 2017, negotiating only the really simple stuff, seniority (in red) is listed as being finalized except for a few to be determined sections. Ergo, ALPA didn't hold out for a WPDL style list, they willingly agreed to a DOH list and turned their backs to the former and current Encore pilots. Swoop OTS pilots are now ahead of current Encore pilots who eventually flow.

In unity!

Tentatively Agreed

Arbitration
Commuting Policy / Pilot Commuter Travel
Deduction of Dues & Assessments
Flight Safety, Accidents/Incidents
Hotels & Transportation
Management Pilots
Medical Examinations
MISC – Legal
New Equipment
Pilot Recovery Program (LOU)
Preamble
Probation
Relocation Expenses
Training
Travel Privilege and Jumpseat
Discipline/Dismissal

Here is a list of unresolved sections (keep in mind, many of these sections are nearly complete with only a few outstanding issues):


Finalized Language except for a few TBSs (To Be Determined items)

Association Flight Release
Duration
Expenses
Filling of Assignments / Position Bids
General
Grievance
Layoff & Recall
Leaves of Absence
Missing & Internment
Seniority
Sick Leave
Uniforms
Vacation & Statutory Holidays

Sections in Progress

Benefits
Deadhead / Crew Rest
Hours of Service
OCD
Pay & Compensation
Pension
Reduced Block Program
Reserve
Scheduling Rules
Scope
Workplace Injury

[Legacy]

Shut up already

[BE02 Driver]

Having said that, what comes of the WPDL is up to the WJ pilots.

Yes and it is fully intact WJ/Encore/Swoop. In that order actually lol. Currently sits at about 2030 names with current Swoop pilots going all the way to the bottom.

Not true. 30 Encore pilots got cut off at the knees on this one. The last 3 classes all got superceded by Swoop.

[Checklist]

Having said that, what comes of the WPDL is up to the WJ pilots.

Yes and it is fully intact WJ/Encore/Swoop. In that order actually lol. Currently sits at about 2030 names with current Swoop pilots going all the way to the bottom.

Not true. 30 Encore pilots got cut off at the knees on this one. The last 3 classes all got superceded by Swoop.

The 26 captain positions kept by Swoop pilots suggests that ALPA can’t protect the pilots at Westjet; Encore is definitely in trouble.

[schnitzel2k3]

Well, it has been a long time coming: the day when I got to say, I told you so, regarding the end of the WPDL (aka One List) in the event that ALPA certified, is almost here.

As I just explained to Rezy, here, the WPDL is dead. We are just awaiting the funeral arrangements to be published.

I spent a fair bit of time and my own money over a year ago trying to show why ALPA could never authroize the WPDL without being the subject of legal action from OTS members. I showed very clearly why ALPA's Constitution and its Executive Board policy, along with Canadian legal precedent with respect to union constitutions all combined to prohibit ALPA from anything other than a DOH seniority list. Indeed, there is an position bid occuring right now that willl use this seniority list to award Swoop and WestJet pilot positions.

I was right. Everyone else (who disputed my findings) was wrong. However, today is not the day top celebrate my persistence and intelligence. No, there are too many losers as a result of what will happen shortly. I do not celebrate their anger, nor their misfortune. There will be huge winners too, those OTS pilots who will now leap frog (some by as much as 350 pilot numbers) ahead of their Encore flow pilot colleagues. If you add the unhappy-former-Encore-already-at-WJ pilots to the soon-to-be-unhappy WJ-soon-to-be-Swoop-pilots-who-will-work-for-less-than-WJ-pay to the unhappy-senior-pilots-who-aren't-geting-seniority-bidding to the unhappy-pilots-who realize-that-it-is-almost-impossible-to-remove-the-MEC-members-from-their-positions to the unhappy-pilots-who-will-be-working-18-days-a-month-versus-the-previous-max-of-16-days, why I think you start to get some unity there.

Ok Jungs, take care. I hope you all found it a worthwhile exercise, this whole ALPA flop. Me I cracked 50 bridge jumps on Friday in Twin Falls, and I think I'm headed back for a few more tomorrow. I have a 28,000 foot skydive planned for next Monday in Tennessee, so I have to work out my travel arrangements. In the meantime, y'all take care.

PS.,

Q. What is the plural of "y'all"?

A. "All y'all"!

In unity!

Wow John, you did it!! You won and your the best.

You should have some incredible momentum on the de-certification drive now. When are you going to start sign up’s? Do you have a website? Are you going to be the leader?

I’m thinking once this gets all sorted out, you my want to delete that post.

Just sayin

*may*

[DropTanks]

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[DropTanks]

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[TheStig]

Not true. 30 Encore pilots got cut off at the knees on this one. The last 3 classes all got superceded by Swoop.

The 26 captain positions kept by Swoop pilots suggests that ALPA can’t protect the pilots at Westjet; Encore is definitely in trouble.

Holly crap you’re right! I didn’t realize that ALPA’s supposed to tell the arbitrator how it’s gonna be. What a complete failure! . Ugh.

BTW how’s your de-certification drive coming along? Lmao!

If this is all true, I would consider it a win, it demonstrates that the Arbitrator is honouring DOH for everyone (WJ,WJe & Swoop). As has been mentioned, a successful arbitration leaves both sides equally dissatisfied, everyone at encore should be relieved. It seems like the sentiment among the pilot group is to send the would be scabs back to the street, the Arbitrator saw that they were hired by WJ and awarded them a Date of Hire spot on the list, keep in mind the airline could have been arguing to keep them in their current positions to saw on training costs. By-pass pay should provide enough incentive to have everyone in a seniority appropriate position ASAP. This seems like a sensible solution.

I hope that ALPA isn't consuming as much energy on trying to punish 26 pilots as everyone here is, although I'm curious if anyone knows whether a Union can deny them representation as they've been hired by Westjet and will be subject to the terms and conditions of the eventual contract? I'm sure this has been discussed, I know that an employee can refuse to join a union (although they still have to pay dues), but I don't know how things work when the shoe is on the other foot.

There are clearly some big issues to be covered that will have important ramifications on everyones day to day and month to month lives, I'd take comfort in knowing that ALPA's experience and know how will ensure that loopholes and fine print and covered as it seems like management no longer deserves the benefit of good will from the pilot group.

All the best over the next week.

[Rezy]

My understanding is that they would be represented by the union but considered in”bad faith”with the union. So ALPA would be there bargaining unit, they would pay dues, they would have the same working conditions as any other pilot (in the respective role). However, they would not be able to partake in any union activities. Ie votes, surveys, etc.

[WeedPro2000]

My friends! I just got a hold of this video this morning and it clearly shows my skill under canopy from an incident on June 15, 2016, and is a metaphor for either ALPA’s ability to negotiate a CBA or the status of the WPDL when ALPA rolled into town: https://youtu.be/2IjvCJ-JJY0

I’m fine now, all back together.

Cheers Jungs!

Johnny The Wonder Jumper

[BE02 Driver]

Yes and it is fully intact WJ/Encore/Swoop. In that order actually lol. Currently sits at about 2030 names with current Swoop pilots going all the way to the bottom.

Not true. 30 Encore pilots got cut off at the knees on this one. The last 3 classes all got superceded by Swoop.

Ok let’s break this down in detail just for the sake of clarity. The WPDL is in fact intact. I did say that Swoop pilots were going to the bottom of the list. For all intents and purposes this is true. They will be within 50 numbers of the bottom of a 2000 name list...but yes not rock bottom. Why not Rock bottom? Because they were hired in the first week of April and the last 3 Encore courses were April 16, May 14 and May 28. So yes the Swoopsters are actually senior to a few pilots here that were actually hired after them. That’s how seniority works. So how exactly did those last 30 Encore pilots get “cut off at the knees”? I’m pretty sure we agree on how we feel about the Swoopsters but let’s be accurate here. Those last 30 Encorians did not get screwed by anybody.

Because most of those 30 guys had the credentials to be hired by Swoop but choose to take the front door into WJ, with knowledge of a single list. The swoop people were hired with the knowledge at the time they would never flow to WJ. They got a huge gift from ALPA, and as such their start date should be the day that decision was made, not the day they snuck in the back door.

[True North]

the Arbitrator saw that they were hired by WJ and awarded them a Date of Hire spot on the list, keep in mind the airline could have been arguing to keep them in their current positions to saw on training costs. By-pass pay should provide enough incentive to have everyone in a seniority appropriate position ASAP. This seems like a sensible solution.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting your post but my understanding is the 26 Swoop captains will be staying in their current positions, hence the bypass pay. Otherwise why would there be any bypass pay?

[mbav8r]

I have to say that I’m very disappointed that WJ ALPA gave in to this particular item, the “Blacklist” will forever be completely meaningless. Theses scabs skipped the line despite a publicized balcklist and it appears they are keeping their position let alone their jobs, what a crock.
That being said, the bypass pay issue in my mind should be in effect on until such time these scabs can actually hold their position, as long as there is someone senior to them, there should be at least 26 on bypass. Any bypass clause I’ve ever seen, everyone between the seniority of the pilot holding a position out of seniority and one who bids it, get bypass pay.
No idea why it was set up the way it was but these 26 scabs are not cheap labour anymore and for the life of me I can’t see why WJ is willing to go this route. Everyday this goes on, the current pilots will become more and more bitter, which will cost WJ far more than they ever imagined.

[JTrain]

The entire Encore list was stapled to the bottom of the WS list in June 2014. Plus the original 50 Encore pilots were added to the WJ seniority list in the late summer of 2013. That is why you'll see many DOHs that seem out of order on the WJPDL. Best case scenario for the Swoopsters is that they go to the bottom of the WJPDL from the date of the arbitrator agreement, below the 30 Encore folks. The differentiating factor is when the Encore folks were hired, they were on the WJPDL, whereas the Swoopsters were not.

[WeedPro2000]

I guess I should have been more clear. The WPDL will exist at WJ mainline for another couple of months, after which it will be superseded by a true DOH seniority list in the first ALPA CBA, and in which every pilot will be ordered by their date of hire at WJ mainline. That’s how it works at ALPA.

Cheers

[TFTMB heavy]

I guess I should have been more clear. The WPDL will exist at WJ mainline for another couple of months, after which it will be superseded by a true DOH seniority list in the first ALPA CBA, and in which every pilot will be ordered by their date of hire at WJ mainline. That’s how it works at ALPA.

Cheers

Not true, ALPA does not dictate what's in the WS CBA, they are there to support and advise. WS MEC could do their seniority by shoe size and ALPA could not stop them.