China_CAAC's Merged Threads

[Bede]

And btw, I have an honors degree in Economics, probably well before you were born. You come across as a complete ass with no understanding of the subject you are trying to come across as knowledgable on

Now go back and play with your toys and let the adults talk.

I always love when people post their education on internet fora.

[sicamore]

I always love when people post their education on internet fora.

Well good for you. You get a gold star for sharing your feelings. Feelings are so good.

[CAL]

..

[mbav8r]

Soooo, anything about the Swoop demotions and pay?

[Diadem]

I think several people have tried. I for one could not give a toss what you think.

You're just an annoying little twirp that keeps parroting yourself. And, no I'm not going to engage your or your smart comment in reply

Actually, no one has made a fact-based rebuttal; it's all been arguments from authority and "If you're not at least as old as I am, then you're obviously stupid". Stating that you're a senior hasn't convinced me of anything other than that you have dementia.
Someone voluntarily leaving a high-paying job to move to a country where wages are lower shouldn't expect to be paid the same as they were in their previous position. Airlines would rather hire a 20000-hour pilot than one with 2000 hours, but if the former demands twice as much money as the latter, the airlines will hire the latter, because profit is their primary concern. Prove me wrong.

[cjet]

Soooo, anything about the Swoop demotions and pay?

Swoop has until Dec 1st to demote OTS hires. Bid closed last week for upgrades from Westjet. Timeline is tight to get training completed in time but Swoop in not yet flying to USA so crewing issues shouldn’t be a problem.

Cjet

[DropTanks]

.

[mbav8r]

Soooo, anything about the Swoop demotions and pay?

A handful of them are trainers so they’re training their replacements. Should be done by Dec 1 otherwise they’ll need to give Kaplan a very good reason why they couldn’t do it in time.

As for pay it seems that the company has decided to interpret the pay protection as meaning they continue to get all pay as Captains including climbing scales and improved pay in new contract. This move is to keep the OTS guys from all jumping ship overnight. They are needed right now to train their seniors from WJ. If the company wants to pay them more then so be it. Sets a nice precedent! Although I have a funny feeling that soon after the WJ pilots are all trained up and the OTS trainers are no longer needed the company will say something like “turns out Kaplan meant you’re frozen at $103/hr so we have to do that now, oopsie!”

Thanks, one can hope that’s what happens.

[.80@410]

The Scabs are too new to understand that the company will tell them whatever is in the companys best interests.
Of course WJ will tell them all is roses and daffodils .

Reality is Kaplan and / or the Dec 31 contract will spell it all out. We can all hope they eat humble pie, but time will tell. Watching them squirm in the right seat is a start. They’ve got 1000 WJ FOs and Encore Captains + FOs ahead of them, some waiting 9 years for a Captains seat. They will never see a LS at WJ before their retirement.
Love + it .

.80

[tbaylx]

The Scabs are too new to understand that the company will tell them whatever is in the companys best interests.
Of course WJ will tell them all is roses and daffodils .

Reality is Kaplan and / or the Dec 31 contract will spell it all out. We can all hope they eat humble pie, but time will tell. Watching them squirm in the right seat is a start. They’ve got 1000 WJ FOs and Encore Captains + FOs ahead of them, some waiting 9 years for a Captains seat. They will never see a LS at WJ before their retirement.
Love + it .

.80

Like I said previously, the OTS hires are the first pilots at WJ to get hired at captain wages from day 1 while they wait 9 years or whatever for an upgrade. The entry level pay at WJ and AC is a barrier to many, the OTS guys have managed to get around that issue. They can afford to be patient for however long it takes. Those that aren't interested in such an arrangement will simply leave and find work elsewhere, there are plenty of operators that are happy to have the level of experience that the OTS pilots bring with them.

Thankfully the pilots coming over from WJ to Swoop are a heck of a lot more professional than the crap we see on Avcanada and are a pleasure to work with.

[Hangry]

Glad to see you “managed” to get around the poor starting pay.

Believe me they hate you. But you are insignificant now so they’ll just deal with with you while they have to. It’s called being professional. Professional like not being a scab.

[Mach1]

Telling everyone sensitive business material ahead of time became problematic about 5 years ago, with several leaks from different groups (especially middle management and pilot groups). These leaks had the potential to cause the company to be in breach of trading laws if they had spread too far and caused the stock price to change. From a risk assessment, a lot of the information released to a wide employee group in the past was often insider information, but most employees receiving that info were not controlled as insiders (appropriate and specific NDAs and trading restrictions, amongst other things). Over the past number of years anyone receiving sensitive business info has so on a need to know basis and under a signed NDA for that particular project to avoid the risk situation the company had previously been placed in. Any detailed knowledge on Swoop, 787, new loyalty initiatives and other recent projects were controlled in this way, with the majority of employees learning about the project at the same time a press release went out.

From the perspective of using lease returns directly into Swoop, this was definitely a possibility early on, but the economics of the -700 could not hit the business case requirements and there weren't enough -800 lease returns soon enough to meet the business case timelines. The details had to change a lot to make the project viable, after the initial socialisation of the project with key groups early on.

Yeah... except if that were sensitive business material, they would not have told us that the lease returns were the planes going to Swoop in the first place so you can't hide behind that argument in this case. This lie was not told during the early phases of the development of the plan, it was told to us right up to the day they put pink paint on the newest 800 in the fleet.

"I can't discuss that for reason X, Y or Z..." is a perfectly acceptable answer when asked a question. A much better answer than a lie.

[DropTanks]

.

[tbaylx]

Glad to see you “managed” to get around the poor starting pay.

Believe me they hate you. But you are insignificant now so they’ll just deal with with you while they have to. It’s called being professional. Professional like not being a scab.

I feel sorry for you and the rest of those that go to work hating others. I’m pretty comfortable with the decisions I’ve made and my level of professionalism..especially when compared to a few posters on avcanada.

[True North]

Glad to see you “managed” to get around the poor starting pay.

Believe me they hate you. But you are insignificant now so they’ll just deal with with you while they have to. It’s called being professional. Professional like not being a scab.

I feel sorry for you and the rest of those that go to work hating others. I’m pretty comfortable with the decisions I’ve made and my level of professionalism..especially when compared to a few posters on avcanada.

Although I completely disagree with your decision to take advantage of a labour dispute to further your own career, the rest of your statement is bang on. It seems a lot of WestJet pilots forget this is a public forum. The overall impression of the level of professionalism at WestJet has taken a serious hit lately. The general public view airline pilots as highly paid individuals who get to do an exciting job that they love. Right or wrong that is the general perception. There is very little, if any sympathy for pilots moaning about their lot in life and anyone reading this forum will end up with a whole new opinion of pilots. Some of you guys seriously need to grow up and step away from the computer. You are doing yourselves, your company and your profession a major disservice.

[RidersRule]

The Scabs are too new to understand that the company will tell them whatever is in the companys best interests.
Of course WJ will tell them all is roses and daffodils .

Reality is Kaplan and / or the Dec 31 contract will spell it all out. We can all hope they eat humble pie, but time will tell. Watching them squirm in the right seat is a start. They’ve got 1000 WJ FOs and Encore Captains + FOs ahead of them, some waiting 9 years for a Captains seat. They will never see a LS at WJ before their retirement.
Love + it .

.80

Like I said previously, the OTS hires are the first pilots at WJ to get hired at captain wages from day 1 while they wait 9 years or whatever for an upgrade. The entry level pay at WJ and AC is a barrier to many, the OTS guys have managed to get around that issue. They can afford to be patient for however long it takes. Those that aren't interested in such an arrangement will simply leave and find work elsewhere, there are plenty of operators that are happy to have the level of experience that the OTS pilots bring with them.

Thankfully the pilots coming over from WJ to Swoop are a heck of a lot more professional than the crap we see on Avcanada and are a pleasure to work with.

Yeah 9yr upgrade for WestJetters is like a 15-20yr wait time for OTS Swoopsters with 1000 people above them. Possibly never. Don’t kid yourself dude. There’s absolutely no way management is going to pay 20 or so F/O’s full blown Captain pay for their entire tenure. As I’m sure you’ve heard before from the higher ups it just “doesn’t fit the Swoop business model”. Everything, absolutely everything they’ve done has been to make Swoop the cheapest airline they could and right now the narrative of paying you guys full Captain wage works for them. They can’t have you all quitting overnight. I’ll guarantee that once the dust settles the pay protection will be clarified at $103/hr. Still a massive coup d’etat for you guys and congrats on “managing” to avoid the low starting pay. You’re an inspiration to us all.

This right here. I don’t care about the OTS guys anymore. I’m happy with where they are. If they continue to get paid what they originally signed on for, doesn’t matter to me. This was about being out of position on a list. This was about flying with eight year FO’s who never even got a shot at that seat.

But back to the pay. From what I hear, they make the Swoop pilots pay for a can of pop. And you think they are going to keep paying FO’s as captains. Just my opinion, but yeah right.

Hosnestly I wish u luck with that. Like I said it doesn’t matter anymore. The main wrong was corrected.

[cloak]

Although I completely disagree with your decision to take advantage of a labour dispute to further your own career, the rest of your statement is bang on. It seems a lot of WestJet pilots forget this is a public forum. The overall impression of the level of professionalism at WestJet has taken a serious hit lately. The general public view airline pilots as highly paid individuals who get to do an exciting job that they love. Right or wrong that is the general perception. There is very little, if any sympathy for pilots moaning about their lot in life and anyone reading this forum will end up with a whole new opinion of pilots. Some of you guys seriously need to grow up and step away from the computer. You are doing yourselves, your company and your profession a major disservice.

I have to echo these sentiments that the image of WestJet pilots, at whatever level it was before, has taken a hit in light of their continued attacks on a few individuals who have set-up a safe operation. Now granted a lot of these ramblings come from other people, including Encore and Jazz, which is another interesting point and simply a case of "do as I say not as I do"! At any rate, it is understandable to disagree with certain decisions and professionally and legally fight it, but cyber bullying only denigrates the individual and the group he represents.

And the problem simply remains. If what they say is true, the source of the problem is in the breakdown of the relationship between WestJet pilots and their leaders. Vilifying a few pilots who responded to an ad and took a legal job does not solve their problems. Much like someone's spouse having an affair. The person can focus all his/her attention on the other person,vilify them and spout profanities, but it does not take away from the fact that their relationship is broken down and even if the other person is removed, the marriage is still not restored. Worse yet, no amount of court-sanctioned ruling is going to restore that marriage either. It takes hard work, and it starts by looking within and being less judgmental and pointing out others' possible shortcomings....otherwise for WestJet pilots the problem lingers on!

On a larger scale this poses the question: Is piloting a profession like lawyers, doctors, or nurses whereby one is recognised for one's previous experience from one company to another; or is it a union-shop-job whereby one progresses based on one's seniority not necessarily merit?

[Rowdy]

Cloak, I'd disagree.

The general canadian populace does not care. They are almost completely and belligerently uninformed on whats happened. Most that I've spoken to that aren't in the industry don't even know swoop exists.

The ones that do know, are usually union members(non aviation), and they now perceive WJ management and the scabs that took the swoops positions poorly. I don't know a single person who views the westjet pilots in a poor light. Most are sympathetic, especially when informed on what happened. They are however not sympathetic to those that tried to cut the line so to speak.

[mbav8r]

Although I completely disagree with your decision to take advantage of a labour dispute to further your own career, the rest of your statement is bang on. It seems a lot of WestJet pilots forget this is a public forum. The overall impression of the level of professionalism at WestJet has taken a serious hit lately. The general public view airline pilots as highly paid individuals who get to do an exciting job that they love. Right or wrong that is the general perception. There is very little, if any sympathy for pilots moaning about their lot in life and anyone reading this forum will end up with a whole new opinion of pilots. Some of you guys seriously need to grow up and step away from the computer. You are doing yourselves, your company and your profession a major disservice.

I have to echo these sentiments that the image of WestJet pilots, at whatever level it was before, has taken a hit in light of their continued attacks on a few individuals who have set-up a safe operation. Now granted a lot of these ramblings come from other people, including Encore and Jazz, which is another interesting point and simply a case of "do as I say not as I do"! At any rate, it is understandable to disagree with certain decisions and professionally and legally fight it, but cyber bullying only denigrates the individual and the group he represents.

And the problem simply remains. If what they say is true, the source of the problem is in the breakdown of the relationship between WestJet pilots and their leaders. Vilifying a few pilots who responded to an ad and took a legal job does not solve their problems. Much like someone's spouse having an affair. The person can focus all his/her attention on the other person,vilify them and spout profanities, but it does not take away from the fact that their relationship is broken down and even if the other person is removed, the marriage is still not restored. Worse yet, no amount of court-sanctioned ruling is going to restore that marriage either. It takes hard work, and it starts by looking within and being less judgmental and pointing out others' possible shortcomings....otherwise for WestJet pilots the problem lingers on!

On a larger scale this poses the question: Is piloting a profession like lawyers, doctors, or nurses whereby one is recognised for one's previous experience from one company to another; or is it a union-shop-job whereby one progresses based on one's seniority not necessarily merit?

I do like to point out hypocrisy when I see it, you say cyber bullying only denigrates the individual and the group he represents just after taking a shot against Encore and Jazz pilots. Which group do you represent and please enlighten me how Jazz pilots took OTS jobs away from another group of pilots, please. The history of Jazz goes back a long way and starting a new operation to go around the union is not part of it, perhaps contemplated by management I’m sure.

[sicamore]

[LWhich group do you represent and please enlighten me how Jazz pilots took OTS jobs away from another group of pilots, please. The history of Jazz goes back a long way and starting a new operation to go around the union is not part of it, perhaps contemplated by management I’m sure.

Give it a rest. This subject is all over a Canada. Don't be so defensive