New Arbitrated Contract

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Rowdy
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by Rowdy »

I can't seem to find and don't see on here, any actual details on the contract.
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Tango Niner
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by Tango Niner »

Alpa Male wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:46 am
Oh, the irony! I'm sitting here recalling all the conversations that I've had over the past few years, with all 20-something-year-olds FO's, "educating" me on proper WAWCON and what ALPA was going to deliver. Telling me that we're on course for a 40% pay hike and lots of goodies. Pulling up their "buddies" pay stubs at AC and reciting DELTA contract language at will. Such convincing little buggers, I'll give them that. Smug, but very convincing. Well, maybe those crusty old senior pilots weren't so batshit crazy after all - "Careful what you wish for...hmmmmmmmm." Ring a bell???

Don't get me wrong; I wasn't a big fan of the WJPA. It was corrupt and outdated. I'll take ALPA's structure and resources any day, but ALPA certainly have not demonstrated negotiating dominance, that's for sure. ALPA hasn't delivered anything that the WJPA couldn't. Except for reserve; the WJPA couldn't achieve that! :lol:
Alpa Male / CAAC / etc.

I think you can consider this a "Victory Neutral" contract for you. With yesterday's contract announcement, you:
- WON on your prediction of disappointment with an ALPA-delivered product; but,
- LOST on your (admit it - a tad long winded!) prediction of the end of the One List.

Equilibrium is achieved.
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jjj
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by jjj »

One list nor Scope isn’t worth the paper it’s printed on as long as Swoop can grow to 30 tails with a B scale.

1:1 YOS won’t pay much except for those already upgraded and can hold onto a Teal tail.

WestJet parent group is a good place for people I their early 20s. Most of this will be sorted by the time they’re in their 30s.

I don’t think the Union made any mistakes and I support them.

We lost big.

Encore won’t even be able to support the flow.

Lots of guys will stay Teal FO and not bother going Pink Captain.

Some guys will go Pink and then leave after racking up some PIC.

All of this combined will just make room for more garbage off the street into Pink Captain spots.

All said and done - Tbalx made a stupid move going to Flair.

Merry Christmas everyone.

Have a couple trips to do then I’m getting smashed on cheap beer over Christmas.

JJJ
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tbaylx
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by tbaylx »

jjj wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:57 am
One list nor Scope isn’t worth the paper it’s printed on as long as Swoop can grow to 30 tails with a B scale.

1:1 YOS won’t pay much except for those already upgraded and can hold onto a Teal tail.

WestJet parent group is a good place for people I their early 20s. Most of this will be sorted by the time they’re in their 30s.

I don’t think the Union made any mistakes and I support them.

We lost big.

Encore won’t even be able to support the flow.

Lots of guys will stay Teal FO and not bother going Pink Captain.

Some guys will go Pink and then leave after racking up some PIC.

All of this combined will just make room for more garbage off the street into Pink Captain spots.

All said and done - Tbalx made a stupid move going to Flair.

Merry Christmas everyone.

Have a couple trips to do then I’m getting smashed on cheap beer over Christmas.

JJJ
I'm pretty happy with the move to Flair. No regrets, it's night and day.

Like I said earlier several times no arbitrator is going to hand a windfall contract to a union, especially not on a first contract. The expectations of the pilot group (lead by the MEC) were unrealistic which is too bad since it appears to be a relatively decent first contract from what I've seen.

Ironic that Swoop will likely have to go OTS again.
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jjj
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by jjj »

Ironic that it only takes 26 pilots to @#$! an entire industry for a decade.

JJJ
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Hangry
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by Hangry »

jjj wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 11:55 am
Ironic that it only takes 26 pilots to @#$! an entire industry for a decade.

JJJ
Seriously. Imagine if the scabs just said no. Imagine
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mbav8r
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by mbav8r »

Very sad to hear that the news is disappointing, I had strong hopes the current environment wouldn’t reward management for violating a written agreement.
Could someone post more specific details of won/lost items, I don’t think your violating anything as CBAs are public knowledge, it just takes time to get them up to date.
Also, I’m very curious if the “pay freeze” vs “pay protection” was clarified?
Obviously knowing whether or not the “26” scabs took some lumps over this would be a small victory and small consolation to your(WJ Pilots) supporters.
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200Above
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by 200Above »

Lots of guys will stay Teal FO and not bother going Pink Captain.
..... those that are safe in the 90th percentile. Not for us 10% that will be forced over to swoop unfortunately.
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FICU
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by FICU »

Labour groups can’t win anymore. If you guys had called WJs bluff and went on strike it would have been a matter of hours before the government would have legislated you back to work. The bar keeps dropping. ULCC means one thing only... Ultra Low Cost Crews and watch the pink tails multiply with lower and lower time OTS crews. I’ll be wondering how much PIC time will be sitting up front in the coming years.
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munzil
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by munzil »

jjj wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 11:55 am
Ironic that it only takes 26 pilots to @#$! an entire industry for a decade.

JJJ
26 pilots are to blame for the state of the Canadian industry?

I think that the state of the canadian aviation industry goes a lot deeper than that. We were the worst paid pilots in the world long before swoop came along.

From where I sit, and judging from the posts here on Avcanada, if the entire westjet pilot group acts in a way as the ones on here, you can all blame yourself for the predicament you are in.

But, yes, much easier to blame others isn't it without taking any responsibility for yourself.
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Lightchop
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by Lightchop »

aerodude wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:38 am
I think a lot ACPA guys/gals just reversed their opinion on merging with ALPA.....
ALPA has nothing to do with it. The contract was arbitrated. Plus the union is only as good as the people you vote to represent you
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mbav8r
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by mbav8r »

munzil wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:41 pm
jjj wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 11:55 am
Ironic that it only takes 26 pilots to @#$! an entire industry for a decade.

JJJ
26 pilots are to blame for the state of the Canadian industry?

I think that the state of the canadian aviation industry goes a lot deeper than that. We were the worst paid pilots in the world long before swoop came along.

From where I sit, and judging from the posts here on Avcanada, if the entire westjet pilot group acts in a way as the ones on here, you can all blame yourself for the predicament you are in.

But, yes, much easier to blame others isn't it without taking any responsibility for yourself.
Munzil,
First, I’m not a WJ pilot so take what I’m about to say for what it’s worth, an opinion only.
WJ pilots had scope in their agreement and I’m willing to wager it wasn’t handed to them without something in return, they would’ve given the corporation something for it. So, the fact WJ was rewarded for violating that agreement is really frustrating.
Imagine what would’ve happened for one second if those 26 douchebags didn’t accept the wages on offer, they set the clock back years for WJ pilots with their actions, no doubt about it. That will have an effect on the whole industry, but maybe a mass exodus will send a message, I suspect AC won’t have any trouble filling openings now.
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DanWEC
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by DanWEC »

I think the win for the Encore seniority list will really hurt WJ's ability to attract new FO's OTS. And good!!!
Those guys are there with the promise of going to WJ, and they should get it.

Now, who wants to go directly to WJ as an FO when you'll be trodden over for the next 10 years by people flowing over from Encore and perpetually stuck at the bottom of a very long list? That sounds like an absolutely terrible career decision.
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rudder
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by rudder »

Contract Arbitration is, in general, a losing proposition for labour. So, suggestion that the bargaining agent is to blame for the result is less credible than some would suggest. Of greater relevance is the process that preceded the requirement to submit to arbitration and the terms of reference for the arbitration itself.

What has become more and more obvious is that in Canada the politics and the process is stacked against pilot labour and that the cost advantage held by CDN carriers over their US and global competitors will continue to grow.

Hopefully the WJ pilots will have a more reasonable opportunity at the expiry of this arbitrated agreement to craft terms that are more favourable to the goals of the membership and more in line with the trends in the piloting profession outside of Canada.

And hopefully WJ management will realize that this may seem like a short term victory, but may manifest itself as a long term loss.
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FOD_Vacuum
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by FOD_Vacuum »

The problem is that Canadian pilots don’t have the balls to stand up for a downward spiraling ratification of new and un-improved contracts. Look at France and how they went nuts after a fuel tax increase was introduced. Why did nobody say anything when the shitty B scale at Jazz came in, like the French did to the tax hike?

If this what is happening in the Canadian aviation industry, happened in France, the outcome would most likely be a lot different. For those in the negotiation rooms and working at Westjet and the unions, for god sake DO SOMETHING about it! Pull up your big boy pants and dust off that “model UN” bargaining experience you acquired in university that supposidely made you such a qualified pilot after all. I’m disappointed in the never ending downward spiral in Canada. I would like to start a family but don’t see this happening anytime soon as I can barely afford to even pay for basic bills. Canada: don’t be surprised that you can’t fill your cockpit seats in two to three years time. End of rant.
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Rowdy
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by Rowdy »

FOD_Vacuum wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 2:03 pm
. Canada: don’t be surprised that you can’t fill your cockpit seats in two to three years time. End of rant.
More like 6-12 months. I've flown with multiple FO's who are waiting to see the actual contract as to whether or not they're going to stay at the regionals or return (with bonuses and higher pay) to their previous employers. Many are also bidding the jet to leave for overseas. There will be a mass exodus across all the canadian carriers if this doesn't improve.

We are nearing an accident from inexperienced crews. When that happens.. I hope the public and our organized groups DEMAND better standards for pilot training, experience requirements and fatigue rules.
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Bacunayagua
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by Bacunayagua »

I don't really see anything concretely indicating the status of the "one list". The 7 page release has one mere line indicating:

>"One-List" LOU to preserve status quo re: Encore flow/seniority recognition is in progress

Just prior to that it mentions that all Encore pilots that have already flowed into mainline, will keep their mainline seniority. Doesn't that statement conflict with the claim that the one -list is still alive? How would Encore pilots already at mainline, keep their seniority against someone who has deferred an Encore to Mainline upgrade ahead of them?

There seems to be a lot of posts here confidently claiming that the "one-list" has prevailed. But all I see is a little snippet claiming it is still in progress.
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lostaviator
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by lostaviator »

mbav8r wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:17 pm
Very sad to hear that the news is disappointing, I had strong hopes the current environment wouldn’t reward management for violating a written agreement.
Could someone post more specific details of won/lost items, I don’t think your violating anything as CBAs are public knowledge, it just takes time to get them up to date.
Also, I’m very curious if the “pay freeze” vs “pay protection” was clarified?
Obviously knowing whether or not the “26” scabs took some lumps over this would be a small victory and small consolation to your(WJ Pilots) supporters.
The CBA isn't "complete" yet. He ruled on the outstanding items and now ALPA/WJ will sit down in the new year to finalize the document.

Some main points:

FOUR year term (ouch)
Pay based of of current level with annual 2% bumps
Trip RIGS
Lost unlimited sick time
30 tails can go to Swoop
Only 90% of current "WJ" positions are protected in the future
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goingnowherefast
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by goingnowherefast »

No wonder there's a pilot shortage, even the 2nd national airline is doing their utmost best to @#$! over their pilots. Who the hell wants to be a pilot when the "best" companies treat their pilots this poorly.

Good luck with recruiting WJ management, sure won't be seeing my resume.
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citizenbanana
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by citizenbanana »

Could always go to Georgian
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Observer
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by Observer »

Pension

"Committee per ALPA proposal"

What does that mean? That the pilots will have a committee to talk about it? Or did you actually get some sort of retirement scheme? Any new Company money?
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Dizzy D
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by Dizzy D »

Bacunayagua wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:23 pm
I don't really see anything concretely indicating the status of the "one list". The 7 page release has one mere line indicating:

>"One-List" LOU to preserve status quo re: Encore flow/seniority recognition is in progress

Just prior to that it mentions that all Encore pilots that have already flowed into mainline, will keep their mainline seniority. Doesn't that statement conflict with the claim that the one -list is still alive? How would Encore pilots already at mainline, keep their seniority against someone who has deferred an Encore to Mainline upgrade ahead of them?

There seems to be a lot of posts here confidently claiming that the "one-list" has prevailed. But all I see is a little snippet claiming it is still in progress.
The one list is completely in the hands of the company now to return the LOU. They have been busy with other affairs recently, so I imagine we will get the LOU back in the next month???... I can’t see the company wanting to screw over 550 pilots at Encore for no reason. There would be a pile of us that would go back to do 703/704 work before sticking around with no number. Stranger things have happened I guess.
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by Inverted2 »

citizenbanana wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:35 pm
Could always go to Georgian
I heard a rumour they're hiring. :lol:
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by Inverted2 »

If it's not 1 list then the Encore pilots are screwed over. If it is 1 seniority list how will they hire 737 FOs?

No one in their right mind would go. You would be stuck at the bottom forever and never see the left seat at mainline.
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Alpa Male
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by Alpa Male »

Tango Niner wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:39 am

Alpa Male / CAAC / etc.

I think you can consider this a "Victory Neutral" contract for you. With yesterday's contract announcement, you:
- WON on your prediction of disappointment with an ALPA-delivered product; but,
- LOST on your (admit it - a tad long winded!) prediction of the end of the One List.

Equilibrium is achieved.

No, my friend, you have me all wrong. We've gotten what WE ALL asked for; we've made our beds, and the cries for "UNITY" have settled. Now, as my good friend John has eluded to on many occasions, we will finally witness the true character of a pilot. The Greed. The real reason people wanted ALPA will become apparent; not the bullshit claims of "unity" or any other nonsense that has been spouted off. NO SIR. We will now witness the pure egocentric, self-centred and greedy desires that lie in EVERY SINGLE PILOT.

Let the games begin. The very junior pilots will flee the ship and run off to greener pastures: "DON'T GO, you said we had to stick together and show a unified front." HAHA, yeah right! The not so junior pilots, but not so senior pilots, will attempt to steamroll pilots in every direction, and the very senior pilots will most definitely steamroll every pilot. The company will still violate our contract, only to tell you to "pound sand" and grieve it. Grievances will pile up higher than the Calgary Tower, and the union will horse trade those grievances for any gain possible. Trust me; I've seen this circus trick before, ladies and gents. OH CRAP! I almost forgot about the B scale and debilitating scope! Hahaha...Jesus Christ, this is sure to turn into a nightmare. YOS?? Who gives a rats ass? WJ has been given a year to transfer the bottom 10% of the pilot group over to swoop; so basically anyone who stood to gain significantly from YOS. Oh my god, I'm making myself depressed right now. LOL

Buckle up, cause these rides don't end nicely, and you never get a refund. Who knows though, it looks like I'll get to fly with a lot of Encore flow; I'm sure they can correct my error in judgement and educate me on something that they've NEVER experienced before. :lol:
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