KAG wrote: ↑Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:14 am
John, yup ya won that bet. I never would have thought anyone with a basic understanding of aviation would rule to allow swoops current wages to continue.
So heres my homework for you if your up to it, what is the lowest paying 737 captain jobs in north America, then extend out globally. I'll bet swoop will be near the extreme bottom.
I would not be so quick to concede to your bet with Johnny!
Swoop Terms and Conditions are per Company proposed LOU, not present Terms and Conditions. We have yet to see what that LOU is.
Westjet and ALPA have already agreed on many items and with release of the December 21 arbitrators ruling we are only seeing parts of what will be the final contract.
TheStig wrote: ↑Mon Dec 24, 2018 11:34 am
Cloak I have the answer to what you’re looking for: ACPA.
I'm not sure if you are being serious or facetious, but ACPA seems to have its own problems. Chief among them is the very poor entry pay and freeze for 4 long years. Although in recent years ACPA has achieved good gains in other areas for more senior pilots through better negotiations not confrontation, litigation, and arbitration. To my knowledge no pilot group has ever won a great contract by arbitration. WestJet pilots seem to have been led to have unreasonable expectations.
Ex DC10 Driver wrote: ↑Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:05 pm
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Can’t say I didn’t get what I expected....just not what I hoped for.
Yup disappointing for sure. Hopefully they set up a committee to examine how we got here and how we repeat these mistakes.
I suspect the headlong rush to get an agreement ASAP served no one very well. In that way, ALPA played right into WJ’s hand.
Bacunayagua wrote: ↑Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:07 am
I take it now one really knows whats going on with the "one-list"?
One list has been agreed to be kept by both WS/WR MEC’s. Just waiting on the company to sign on and make it an LOU. In all communications to the pilot groups the company says they want to keep the one list. They’ve been waiting for the arbitration to be completed and apparently will meet with the MEC’s beginning of January to finalize.
With that said, I’ve heard some of the OTS (post 2013) mainline hires have already lawyered up in an attempt to sewer the Encore pilots and gain some ground on the seniority list.
Ok. How does that work when the company said , "All Encore pilots who have flowed to Westjet will retain their seniority number"
What about senior pilots that are currently still at Encore and have deferred their move for the time being? Or has no one at Encore delayed the move?
A good chunk of pilots have deferred flow. Everyone is being patient and waiting.
cloak wrote: ↑Mon Dec 24, 2018 10:15 am
If there were ever a true representative and professional organization, it would have to be not for profit at the national level with minimal contributions, while individual members can donate extra if they wish. This organization would strive first and foremost to improve relationships among all pilots (not calling each other scabs) and also nurture an amicable and cooperative relationship with management groups.
KAG wrote: ↑Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:30 am
John, wtf are refering ro the wjpa was trying to negioate 1 for 1 scope with swoop....I was under the impression they had no idea of its existence?
Cloak, our ALPA negot team tried for over 9 months to do exactly what you said, negioate with managment who no showed them most of the time or would show unprepared and argue over deftinations. Both stalling tactics.
As for whoever asked about bidding back to mainline, it's a 2 year freeze.
Finally, while these bullet points look bad, it's not the final document. I'll reserve final judgment for mid jan when we get it. Looks pretty bad though. Merry Christmas all. Be safe.
KAG, on the morning of the ULCC announcement, which preceded ALPA’s vote announcement, the WJPA immediately contacted Gregg. From that point on, talks began towards getting an agreement on wages and scope sand working conditions. You might not believe it, but those are the facts. The scope was initially one Swoop tail for one WB airframe. Also, the pay was also going to be much better than what ALPA has ended up with.
Take care, and all the best to you and your family.
KAG wrote: ↑Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:30 am
John, wtf are refering ro the wjpa was trying to negioate 1 for 1 scope with swoop....I was under the impression they had no idea of its existence?
Cloak, our ALPA negot team tried for over 9 months to do exactly what you said, negioate with managment who no showed them most of the time or would show unprepared and argue over deftinations. Both stalling tactics.
As for whoever asked about bidding back to mainline, it's a 2 year freeze.
Finally, while these bullet points look bad, it's not the final document. I'll reserve final judgment for mid jan when we get it. Looks pretty bad though. Merry Christmas all. Be safe.
KAG, on the morning of the ULCC announcement, which preceded ALPA’s vote announcement, the WJPA immediately contacted Gregg. From that point on, talks began towards getting an agreement on wages and scope sand working conditions. You might not believe it, but those are the facts. The scope was initially one Swoop tail for one WB airframe. Also, the pay was also going to be much better than what ALPA has ended up with.
Take care, and all the best to you and your family.
John
Ok I’ll bite, the WJPA essentially got more bargaining in 10 hours than the company was willing to give ALPA in 10 months? Give your head a shake.
KAG wrote: ↑Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:30 am
John, wtf are refering ro the wjpa was trying to negioate 1 for 1 scope with swoop....I was under the impression they had no idea of its existence?
Cloak, our ALPA negot team tried for over 9 months to do exactly what you said, negioate with managment who no showed them most of the time or would show unprepared and argue over deftinations. Both stalling tactics.
As for whoever asked about bidding back to mainline, it's a 2 year freeze.
Finally, while these bullet points look bad, it's not the final document. I'll reserve final judgment for mid jan when we get it. Looks pretty bad though. Merry Christmas all. Be safe.
KAG, on the morning of the ULCC announcement, which preceded ALPA’s vote announcement, the WJPA immediately contacted Gregg. From that point on, talks began towards getting an agreement on wages and scope sand working conditions. You might not believe it, but those are the facts. The scope was initially one Swoop tail for one WB airframe. Also, the pay was also going to be much better than what ALPA has ended up with.
Take care, and all the best to you and your family.
John
You will need to provide proof John to back up your claim.
Are you sure it wasn’t plans on how to sink the union drive?
TheStig wrote: ↑Mon Dec 24, 2018 11:34 am
Cloak I have the answer to what you’re looking for: ACPA.
I'm not sure if you are being serious or facetious, but ACPA seems to have its own problems. Chief among them is the very poor entry pay and freeze for 4 long years. Although in recent years ACPA has achieved good gains in other areas for more senior pilots through better negotiations not confrontation, litigation, and arbitration. To my knowledge no pilot group has ever won a great contract by arbitration. WestJet pilots seem to have been led to have unreasonable expectations.
A bit of both. I'm not sold on the benefits of ALPA either. What you've highlighted I would argue are weak areas of the contract, not ACPA. Where ACPA has been trying to make improvements are in its structure and oversight and preparations with respect to negotiations. I know the first 4 years of pay is the big topic of discussion here, but in the last round of negotiations the focus was on improving the DC pension.
I'll be the first to admit I'm not involved in the union although I do my best to keep up to speed, take surveys and of course, vote. From what I've observed it doesn't matter too much which union or association my dues are paid to, but poor membership engagement opens the door for officials with agendas to pull things in specific directions. I hope Westjets' pilots can get their house in order over the next few years and focus on obtaining real gains.
KAG wrote: ↑Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:30 am
John, wtf are refering ro the wjpa was trying to negioate 1 for 1 scope with swoop....I was under the impression they had no idea of its existence?
Cloak, our ALPA negot team tried for over 9 months to do exactly what you said, negioate with managment who no showed them most of the time or would show unprepared and argue over deftinations. Both stalling tactics.
As for whoever asked about bidding back to mainline, it's a 2 year freeze.
Finally, while these bullet points look bad, it's not the final document. I'll reserve final judgment for mid jan when we get it. Looks pretty bad though. Merry Christmas all. Be safe.
KAG, on the morning of the ULCC announcement, which preceded ALPA’s vote announcement, the WJPA immediately contacted Gregg. From that point on, talks began towards getting an agreement on wages and scope sand working conditions. You might not believe it, but those are the facts. The scope was initially one Swoop tail for one WB airframe. Also, the pay was also going to be much better than what ALPA has ended up with.
Take care, and all the best to you and your family.
John
You will need to provide proof John to back up your claim.
Are you sure it wasn’t plans on how to sink the union drive?
Greg, whatever you may think, PY and PB, the co-chairmen of the WJPA were both immediately in touch with GS after the announcement. I don’t know PB that well, but have zero reason and there is zero evidence to doubt his honesty. As far as PY, goes, te only person I know who has any beef with him and openly accuses him of misdeeds is a certain bitter CA who couldn’t make up his mind which airline he wanted to fly for.
So, I believe those two individuals when they both tell me that it was a 1:1 deal, with no wage negotiations progressing well and reason to believe the pay would be very close to WJ mainline pay.
But hey, if you think going on strike and binding arbitration works for you then I don’t encourage you to vote for more pilots who cane out of the WPPA era. They do know how to fight and be angry.
That said, your position is safe; the YYZ NG Base is not going to shrink.
KAG wrote: ↑Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:30 am
John, wtf are refering ro the wjpa was trying to negioate 1 for 1 scope with swoop....I was under the impression they had no idea of its existence?
Cloak, our ALPA negot team tried for over 9 months to do exactly what you said, negioate with managment who no showed them most of the time or would show unprepared and argue over deftinations. Both stalling tactics.
As for whoever asked about bidding back to mainline, it's a 2 year freeze.
Finally, while these bullet points look bad, it's not the final document. I'll reserve final judgment for mid jan when we get it. Looks pretty bad though. Merry Christmas all. Be safe.
KAG, on the morning of the ULCC announcement, which preceded ALPA’s vote announcement, the WJPA immediately contacted Gregg. From that point on, talks began towards getting an agreement on wages and scope sand working conditions. You might not believe it, but those are the facts. The scope was initially one Swoop tail for one WB airframe. Also, the pay was also going to be much better than what ALPA has ended up with.
Take care, and all the best to you and your family.
John
You will need to provide proof John to back up your claim.
Are you sure it wasn’t plans on how to sink the union drive?
“The airline also said the new carrier is subject to agreement with its pilots and any required regulatory approvals.”
From April 20th 2017 press release. There was intent to negotiate terms of Swoop followed by a vote by the pilots. Cards were submitted to CIRB for ALPA (on the same day ) for certification following press release.
Take from it what you will. These are facts.
flyingsquirrelsuck, if one leaves union ideology behind (not accusing you of this), and examines things as they were, I believe the company had a legitimate concern in the air transportation market. If you consider the fact that even with Swoop's entry and Flair's presence, that Tim Morgan has secured backing to launch an ULCC, it is reasonable to assume that WJ was aware of the possibility of another entrant(s) into that market. And worried. They weren't lying to employees about the threat. Nor was Swoop a union busting move, as much as union executives would like you to believe this.
I think what many pilots do is they analyze the airline market space and pilot employment conditions according to a univariate analysis. It's like the market is Stonehenge and all that management needs to do is avoid stupid moves or wasting money, pay pilots what they're "worth", add airplanes on profitable routes and with the necessary frequency and ta dah! Profits up the ying yang.
I remember my first encounter with this type of thinking. It was in the Air Atlantic days. The thought was, "The company negotiated the contract, it's up to them to make money doing it. F#ck em." This in reference to some request to work a little extra or do something that I have since forgotten. But that is a pilot's perspective.
Management has no such luxury. They have to plan for the future in a very chaotic, unpredictable environment and they have to be able to make profits. Profit. Not a bad word. On the contrary, it explains every single cell phone, iPad, car, plane, house, highway, everything. Only a dedicated marxist (a dead philosophy) could posit such claptrap. Yet that is what union types would have us believe...evil capitalism.
No sir. WJ was rightly trying to come up with a workable counterpart to the real threat of a much improved Air Canada in #1 spot, and numerous entrants planning to attack WJ from the bottom end.
If pilots at WJ feel they have made bad choices in where they should have gone to work, both recently and 15 years ago, well, that is what free will is all about. The choice to make mistakes. If you have the time, dream up a time machine to go back and make different choices. Otherwise, stop blaming the rest of us for your misfortune.
China,
Regardless of the need or desire to start a ULCC to protect the bottom end and regardless of the timing of the announcement, obviously WJ had been planning to violate scope language that was already agreed to.
According to your facts, the negotiations started after the announcement, how could you have any meaningful discussions with a company who put the cart before the horse?
This was a complete slap across the face, basically this is happening and it’s up to you to stop it, so an attempt was made and unfortunately Kaplan seems to be biased towards the corporate agenda, he did it with Air Canada and now WJ, does make one wonder if he has some secret off shore account for the bribes(not an accusation, just a thought).
What would you be saying if ALPA just rolled over and accepted it?
I imagine 30 Swoop tails was a compromise of what WJ wanted vs the none ALPA was willing to accept, can’t say this enough, you had SCOPE language preventing this very thing, how could anyone blame ALPA for this.
The only possible different outcome could’ve been calling the shut down bluff, if the government steps in and forces back to work and arbitration, by law(I believe) a forced arbitration has to consider what “likely” would’ve been achieved had they not stepped in. A real militant group would’ve gone the strike route, remember they had almost full support, who knows, should of, could of, would of.
Also, Merry Christmas to all!
China_CAAC_Exam wrote: ↑Tue Dec 25, 2018 9:51 amflyingsquirrelsuck, if one leaves union ideology behind (not accusing you of this), and examines things as they were, I believe the company had a legitimate concern in the air transportation market. If you consider the fact that even with Swoop's entry and Flair's presence, that Tim Morgan has secured backing to launch an ULCC, it is reasonable to assume that WJ was aware of the possibility of another entrant(s) into that market. And worried. They weren't lying to employees about the threat. Nor was Swoop a union busting move, as much as union executives would like you to believe this.
I think what many pilots do is they analyze the airline market space and pilot employment conditions according to a univariate analysis. It's like the market is Stonehenge and all that management needs to do is avoid stupid moves or wasting money, pay pilots what they're "worth", add airplanes on profitable routes and with the necessary frequency and ta dah! Profits up the ying yang.
I remember my first encounter with this type of thinking. It was in the Air Atlantic days. The thought was, "The company negotiated the contract, it's up to them to make money doing it. F#ck em." This in reference to some request to work a little extra or do something that I have since forgotten. But that is a pilot's perspective.
Management has no such luxury. They have to plan for the future in a very chaotic, unpredictable environment and they have to be able to make profits. Profit. Not a bad word. On the contrary, it explains every single cell phone, iPad, car, plane, house, highway, everything. Only a dedicated marxist (a dead philosophy) could posit such claptrap. Yet that is what union types would have us believe...evil capitalism.
No sir. WJ was rightly trying to come up with a workable counterpart to the real threat of a much improved Air Canada in #1 spot, and numerous entrants planning to attack WJ from the bottom end.
If pilots at WJ feel they have made bad choices in where they should have gone to work, both recently and 15 years ago, well, that is what free will is all about. The choice to make mistakes. If you have the time, dream up a time machine to go back and make different choices. Otherwise, stop blaming the rest of us for your misfortune.
John I was just asking you to prove your claim the WJPA had guaranteed conditions with WJ on the formation of Swoop.
What I got in return was 2 rants of verbal diarrhoea.
KAG wrote: ↑Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:14 am
John, yup ya won that bet. I never would have thought anyone with a basic understanding of aviation would rule to allow swoops current wages to continue.
So heres my homework for you if your up to it, what is the lowest paying 737 captain jobs in north America, then extend out globally. I'll bet swoop will be near the extreme bottom.
I would not be so quick to concede to your bet with Johnny!
Swoop Terms and Conditions are per Company proposed LOU, not present Terms and Conditions. We have yet to see what that LOU is.
Westjet and ALPA have already agreed on many items and with release of the December 21 arbitrators ruling we are only seeing parts of what will be the final contract.
This is true, we don't know what the Swoop terms are. That said, I understand that there are former WJ Capts who bid Swoop Capt with an expectation of a salary uplift from Kaplan who are quite upset and manifesting that anger on the ALPA forum.
For anyone wondering why WS pilots did not get what they were expecting, below are two extracts of the arbitrators ruling:
-In marked contrast, this is a first collective agreement. Industry norms are not achieved overnight.
-But this is, nevertheless, the interest arbitration of a first collective agreement and it has to be good enough while leaving the potential for growth and improvement in future rounds leading toward achievement of industry norms.
