SWOOP - A New Hires Future

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DropTanks
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by DropTanks » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:56 am

goingnowherefast wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:38 am
How are the staffing levels? More quitters than applicants still?
Can only blame pilots for ACMI lease costs so long before something changes.
Staffing? Nobody wants to touch Swoop at mainline. It’s a special kind of hell. The very few that chose to go over are working on exit plans like China among others. Last bid had like 1yr Encore Pilots getting left seat at Swoop and they still couldn’t fill all the spots. It’s a DEC thing now. Rest assured things at Swoop won’t be “fixed”. Nobody at mainline wants to waste negotiating capital on that turd. It will remain a low pay-high work environment until it dies its own death. Scope it and forget it. Mainline will get the negotiating capital.
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George Taylor
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by George Taylor » Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:52 am

If the company doesn't kill Swoop I fear an "incident" will. Not one pilot I've talked to would even DH on them.
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SwoopStar
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by SwoopStar » Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:19 am

iNCApacitated wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:19 pm
It's been four months since the start of the thread with its summary of the contract.

Anyone willing to share what the rostering has been like ? Is it still 18/19 days of work in a 30/31 day month ? :?:
Nothing has changed. SWOOP's LOU is in the process of being reformatted to match the rest of the CA however there will be no material changes, just clarity in the existing language.

As for the schedule, expect MAX days (18/19) due to RESERVE as a filler. Further, SWOOP has an exceptional high ratio of red eye flying. (See my above post titled SWOOP'S geography problem.) For example, the majority of YXX-YHM flights are red eyes. The red eye flying destroys the productivity of pairings. YXX-YHM is covered by a 9hr 3 day with a 36hr sit in YXX. LAS and YEG are red eye returns, which are terribly fatiguing and experience a high number of book offs. As everyone is blocked to 18/19 days, there is little availability for OT coverage and almost no one picks up a red eye return in OT. Thus, SWOOP leans heavily on RESERVE for coverage and fills schedules to MAX days with RESERVE.

MAX days will likely continue for the foreseeable future as SWOOP aims for 15hr utilization on their new 738s. Coupled with Canada's geography problem, this can only be accomplished with red eyes.

For colour, RESERVE is issued as an AM or PM 12hr shift however a pairing can be assigned with a checkin within 2hrs after your reserve period. For example, AM reserve is 0300-1500. SWOOP at 1459 can assign you a 14hr duty day with a checkin at 1700, ending at 0700 the next day. The EXPECTATION is to show up fit to fly for 14hrs and then able to extend 3hrs for unforeseen if required.

This EXPECTATION is also extended to any day of your scheduled flying. In the past, a crew operating an afternoon 1500 checkin, short YHM-YWG-YHM turn, was then directed to operate an IROP YHM-YHZ-YHM afterwards with a checkout of 0400.

None of this will change in the next 4 YEARS, the length of the CA. And as Drop Tanks stated, none of the WestJet pilots care to give up anything for improvements at SWOOP. There are 1600 pilots flying at mainline and 80 at SWOOP, all of which are junior or OTS captains.

My personal opinion, most here at SWOOP feel it will be short lived. If you're coming here as a DEC, you may find yourself at mainline in 2 years as a FO waiting 10+ years for an upgrade. SWOOP is still an experiment and still a risk. Despite how deep WestJet's pockets are, WestJet will NEVER continue losing money on any initiative. Look how quick WestJet cancelled Mexico City last year.
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Last edited by SwoopStar on Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

SwoopStar
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by SwoopStar » Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:00 pm

Also, please do not think of SWOOP/WestJet in terms of Rouge/Air Canada.

The business model of SWOOP is fundamentally different than WestJet with no overlap or connectivity to prevent cannibalization.

More important, the collective agreements' scope clause prevents any other airline engaging in a business relation with mainline other than a CPA with jets under 76 seats or turboprops under 78 seats.

SWOOP will live or die on its own merits.
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DropTanks
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by DropTanks » Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:07 pm

And that is exactly why we won’t piss away negotiating capital on an operation that will likely shut down on its own. Isolation and containment is the key.

By the way, as I’m sure you know, going over 14hrs is entirely up to the crew. The chief pilot can EXPECT to see me raise a particular finger in his direction. See folks! This is what you get. It’s not just about the hourly rate or the fancy (lol) 4 stripes on your janitors uniform. It’s the intangibles like a CP that pushes you to break rest rules and so much more. Go ahead and apply! Apply for that coveted position that 50 former mainline Westjetters would give their left nut to be free from. At least you’ll get to tell your non-aviation friends you’re a jet captain. Better not tell your aviation friends although they’ll just be laughing at your Instagram.
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daedalusx
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by daedalusx » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:49 pm

Normally I’d say that it looks like some pilots needs to find their balls and start booking off fatigue away from base for maximum effect but we’re talking about Swoop crews here ...
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In twenty years time when your kids ask how you got into flying you want to be able to say "work and determination" not "I just kept taking money from your grandparents for type ratings until someone was stupid enough to give me a job"

cloak
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by cloak » Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:05 am

daedalusx wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:49 pm
Normally I’d say that it looks like some pilots needs to find their balls and start booking off fatigue away from base for maximum effect but we’re talking about Swoop crews here ...
Ok ace, Swoop's pay is the same as Sunwing and Transat, plus it pays profit sharing and ESP, so not sure what you mean?!
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jjj
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by jjj » Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:41 am

Lest we forget that Sunwing has a credit system.

So let’s not float the same BS that Tbalyx did.

JJJ
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cloak
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by cloak » Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:51 am

Not following, please do elaborate.
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Flyingsquirrelsuck
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by Flyingsquirrelsuck » Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:32 pm

Ah yes the “ESP and profit share” promise. Rumour has it, Swoop will be operating at a loss of 300 million dollars over the next 3-4 years.

If you believe Swoop or even WJ mainline employees are going to share profit share, your dreaming.

Also the executive says that our share price will only rise with increased profit. With the yield that Swoop generates combined with the current load factors, profit will not rise anytime soon.

Swoop is the worse 737 job in North America period. The fact the arbitrator did not see this leads to believe he was paid off on his rulings


cloak wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:05 am
daedalusx wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:49 pm
Normally I’d say that it looks like some pilots needs to find their balls and start booking off fatigue away from base for maximum effect but we’re talking about Swoop crews here ...
Ok ace, Swoop's pay is the same as Sunwing and Transat, plus it pays profit sharing and ESP, so not sure what you mean?!
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daedalusx
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by daedalusx » Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:06 pm

cloak wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:05 am
daedalusx wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:49 pm
Normally I’d say that it looks like some pilots needs to find their balls and start booking off fatigue away from base for maximum effect but we’re talking about Swoop crews here ...
Ok ace, Swoop's pay is the same as Sunwing and Transat, plus it pays profit sharing and ESP, so not sure what you mean?!
Well Stud, the job employment market certainly disagree with all your statements. Matter of a fact, even at 1500 hrs min time required, this is by FAR the least desirable job, it’s so bad that they can’t even find people OTS and WJ has to do the old bait and switch (interview for mainline and get a Swoop offer). Now compare that to Sunwing who is flooded with 5000+ hrs 705 jet resumes, including, yes, Swoop pilots (oh the irony).

Also ever heard of the opportunity cost ? If I make 75k at Sunwing working 8 days a month and sleeping in my own bed same time zone vs making 75k at Swoop with horrific red eyes and unproductive flying working 19 days a month, can you truly say pay is the same ? How much you value your time and your quality of life ? Also I’d argue that it’s much easier to take 1-2 days of OT when you’re working 8-10 days as opposed already working 19 but hey, Swoop sure sounds great if you’re single, lifeless and can’t wait to selfie #PROPSAREFORBOATS #TOOCOOLFORTIES.

Finally, someone up the training department might want to add extra CBTs or curriculum on copying and reading back clearances, it’s getting really embarrassing and I’m sure I’m not the only one who’s noticed it.
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In twenty years time when your kids ask how you got into flying you want to be able to say "work and determination" not "I just kept taking money from your grandparents for type ratings until someone was stupid enough to give me a job"

cloak
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by cloak » Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:48 pm

Rhetoric aside, there is little difference and honestly, speaking of "sleeping in one's own bed" Sunwing has its own problems judging by recent overseas drafts and attrition...bottom line, there are positive and negative points to every job; ultimately one has to decide based on personal situation and priorities. Good luck to all.
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Flyingsquirrelsuck
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by Flyingsquirrelsuck » Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:21 am

Well you avoided any real conversation by saying “rhetoric aside”, I’m curious what are some positives about working at Swoop?


cloak wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:48 pm
Rhetoric aside, there is little difference and honestly, speaking of "sleeping in one's own bed" Sunwing has its own problems judging by recent overseas drafts and attrition...bottom line, there are positive and negative points to every job; ultimately one has to decide based on personal situation and priorities. Good luck to all.
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